question about the word "Oriental"

Siri Kirpal said:

Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

I've only learned in the past year or so that the word "Oriental" is now considered derogatory. (It wasn't when I was a kid, to the extent that the Chinese family of a friend of mine had an "Oriental Market" -- their term.)

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I don't have an answer to your question. Just wanted to say I'm relieved I'm not the only one late to the "oriental is a derogatory term" bandwagon. I just found out in the past couple years myself and felt like a jerk for not knowing about it sooner.

It's not a word that anyone I know ever uses in conversation, which is probably why it took me so long to find out, but I always just assumed it wasn't used because, just like its counterpoint, "occidental,"* it was archaic.

At least we know now! Better late than never.

*Plus countless other words I only know from reading old books

Merriam-Webster Dictionary tries to note when words have derogatory connotations. M-W notes that "Oriental," used to describe a person, often has a derogatory connotation. The dictionary doesn't note any negative connotation for "Oriental rug," which gets a separate entry.

I live in a college town in the midwestern US. I've heard people talk about oriental rugs.

Orient originally meant "the east" which was subdivided into Near east and Far east (really!).

It became frowned upon in academic circles in the 1960s because it's not accurate, and it lumps very different and unrelated cultures together.

It became increasingly not accepted until the late 1980s when it became flagged in style guides as often derogatory.

The American Heritage Dictionary has a useful Usage Note.

It is complicated, because we still have "oriental markets" in my area, even though using the term to describe a person is considered racist here. It used to be used to describe anyone who looked like they had east-Asian ancestry. Now the term "Asian" is used instead--in the western US, at least.

I've spoken to people from the UK who are baffled by this, though. They point out that "Asian" is inaccurate, because people from India, the Middle East, and parts of the former USSR are also "Asian," but we don't use that term to describe their ethnic heritage or identity. I had a friend who grew up in Hawaii who was also baffled by the term "Asian," because in Hawaii, people were more inclined to identify as a specific culture or ancestry, such as Chinese, or Japanese, or Filipino, or Polynesian or whatever. White people were the minority group that had a special label there (Haoles).

I played a game a while back, one that was developed in the UK I think, that referred to the game's version of the middle East as the "Orient" and its version of Europe as the "Occident." I thought that was interesting, because of course the latter term means "The West," but when I was a kid, people never referred to people of European ancestry as "Occidentals." In the game, though, the European like land masses were north and the Middle Eastern like ones were south.

Hmm... Only Oriental rugs is fine; no other objects. But even then, suggest use with caution. Rugs vary by region and are usually identified ethnically. Orient is ok, but rarely used now. Never oriental to describe a person.

/shrug.

PS. Occident was commonly used a long while back.

Snitchcat said:

Hmm... Only Oriental rugs is fine; no other objects. But even then, suggest use with caution. Rugs vary by region and are usually identified ethnically. Orient is ok, but rarely used now. Never oriental to describe a person.

/shrug.

PS. Occident was commonly used a long while back.

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There's a private liberal-arts college in Southern CA called "Occidental." I think it was named that because of it's West-Coast location, not because its a repository of western culture. I could be wrong, though.

Alessandra Kelley said:

Strictly speaking, “Persian”is a Greek word used by foreigners to describe the people of that region. The Iranians never called themselves “Persians” at any point in their history.

I don’t know if the distinction is important to Iranians. I don’t know anything about standard antiques and history terminology. I just point out that that people so far as I know has always called themselves “Iranians” and it is not a modern thing.

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I have no idea about the history of the terminology, but when I was little, my best friend was a refugee from Iran. I don't remember if she called herself Persian, or not, but it is definitely a word her family used. (For example, she tried to teach me to read Persian.)

ETA: Siri beat me to this idea. On the ball as usual.

Siri Kirpal said:

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Thanks for stopping in, Snitchcat. And thanks for the caution. I only use the term when referring to the spectrum of rugs, not individual ones.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

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That makes sense - the generic 'Oriental' for that type of rug, specific names for rugs of specific origins.

AFAIR, the uptick in people calling themselves 'Persian' happened around the time that U.S./Iranian relations went bad, back in the '80s. People who had immigrated to North America didn't want to be associated with what was going on in Iran. So, they went with the older name.

I'm totally comfortable with the term "Oriental rugs". When I did a study abroad program in England with a bunch of other Californian students, we were horrified when we saw the "Oriental section" of Sainsbury's, and took lots of pictures of the sign. I lived there for years and I never got used to it, even though it was referring to items. I'd also hear it being used to refer to people, and I always felt the ick factor, although I was too embarrassed to correct people. I did correct them when they used "Chinaman" and "chinky" for takeout, though.

Err, in conclusion, I think it's okay for rugs, less okay for other items, and definitely not okay for humans.

Side note, for everyone:

"Chinaman", "chinky" and "chink".


All three terms are extremely derogatory and insulting. Not only are they bigoted, and racist, they carry connotations as bad as, or worse than, n***** and c****.

I think the remnants of 'Persia' officially became 'Iran' in the 1930's when the Shah had it changed. So, I would imagine for older people, Persia would come more easily to the tongue, and how other people would still think of it. In 'Oklahoma', the '40s musical, set in the earlier 1900s, Ali Hakim is described as a 'Persian peddlar' (although this may merely have been part of his peddlar's mystique: 'exotic foreign treasures' etc). In the movie, he was played by Eddie Albert.

The feedback I've often seen is "Don't call me Oriental, I'm not a rug." That indicates to me that it's using the term to describe a person that causes offense.

Based on essays such as Said's "Orientalism," it does seem that the term "Oriental" was created (or at least commonly used) to exoticize the East, and it may be this that people object to as it's sort of dehumanizing. Based on what I (a non-historian) have seen of language from different time periods it may simply be that the term fell out of use except in the case of a) referring to the "Other," and b) referring to rugs. As such, I wouldn't use it unless I was mimicking a particular historical era with reference works, or referring to decorative pieces.

Snitchcat said:

Side note, for everyone:

"Chinaman", "chinky" and "chink".


All three terms are extremely derogatory and insulting. Not only are they bigoted, and racist, they carry connotations as bad as, or worse than, n***** and c****.

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I would hope this side note is not even needed, but one never knows.


I would say yes to Oriental rugs, but no to anything else. My husband would have an absolute seizure if someone called him Oriental...and I wouldn't blame him. It's the height of ignorance. Although, in retrospect...the side note above would be much worse. But weighing worse-s gets one no where.

Siri Kirpal said:

there's a difference between making art out of something exotic [...] and "othering" people.

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Great way to put it! I may need to borrow this at some time.