Its OUR planet, shouldn't WE run it?

Justobuddies · Mar 7, 2018

Of all the reversals we've now come to expect as commonplace in US politics, this latest about face by the ***** in charge has me fuming, angry nearly to tears.

The Trump administration has lifted an Obama-era ban on importing legally hunted elephant remains — known as trophies — from Zimbabwe and Zambia...

If that sounds familiar it’s because this is the second time in recent months the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS), a federal agency under the Department of the Interior, has moved to ease trophy import restrictions. This time around, agency head Ryan Zinke — a hunting advocate — appears to be working more discreetly.

I know that in this forum I'm basically preaching to the choir, so there's not ranting and raving that's going to increase further the resistance to this. I do however, humbly, request that if you're in a position to contact your local representatives and encourage them to fight this, to do so. Unseat them, oppose them, do something in upcoming elections to replace those complicit in the destruction of these noble and peaceful beings.

If you're able, the Elephant Crisis Fund is fighting for the lives of these gentle giants, and I understand 100% of the donations received go to the field to help protect the elephants.

Thank you for reading, and helping if you can.

cornflake · Mar 7, 2018

I realize the title is sarcastic, but the sentiment is an actual thing expressed in some facets of the evangelical community. I've seen it, basically, and with variations (god gave us the Earth and everything on it to use as we see fit; we have dominion over everything [why that rarely translates into taking care of it isn't really explored]/god could fix anything, it's not for us to worry about/the rapture is imminent so...) a lot from evangelicals of a particular bent.

Obviously not everyone thinks this way, but people do, and some of the people who share these kinds of opinions appear to be in the administration (like Ben Carson), so I wouldn't be surprised if Zinke, Pruitt, etc, were among them.

Justobuddies · Mar 7, 2018

The title isn't exactly sarcastic. I think the sheer numbers those of us that know environment is in danger and should be protected outnumber those that support this kind of...unspeakable destruction. Are there those that will say all the snow being dumped in the northeast is proof that global warming is a hoax? Yes. Is it most of the country? No.

I guess, I'm hoping that a nudge here and there can get the majority of the population out of the complacency that has overtaken recently. The idea that "my vote doesn't matter", or "my voice can't stop the machinations of Wall Street elites" needs to end, and we the people need to send a clear message that we will no longer sit idly by and let them have their way.

Kjbartolotta · Mar 7, 2018

cornflake said:
I realize the title is sarcastic, but the sentiment is an actual thing expressed in some facets of the evangelical community. I've seen it, basically, and with variations (god gave us the Earth and everything on it to use as we see fit; we have dominion over everything [why that rarely translates into taking care of it isn't really explored]/god could fix anything, it's not for us to worry about/the rapture is imminent so...) a lot from evangelicals of a particular bent.

There's a specific verse in the bible some evangelicals like to point to to justify an open contempt for nature & the stripping down of everything for parts. I'll try to find it at some point, but my take has always been that they're reading it wrong.

regdog · Mar 7, 2018

He refuses to protect children from being shot in schools, or people from being shot at concert, why would he protect elephants from trophy hunters. Don't forget, Donnie and Eric want to being heir trophies home

Justobuddies · Mar 7, 2018

I remember the picture of little asshole with an elephant tail. It outraged me then, and outrages me now. If I could I'd go to Africa and work with preservation groups to stop this nonsense then I certainly would do that, unfortunately I don't have the means to participate directly in stopping the hunters. I support conservation organizations where I can.

And before anybody gives me any BS about starving tribes getting fed off of these poor poached animals. About half are left to rot in the sun. When they are taken they are generally sold to places where elephant meat is in such a demand that the price is too great for any but the elite to afford.

A similar argument is made that hunting supports conservation, which is as insane as it sounds. The fees collected do nothing to stop the illegal poaching, or environmental changes that are eliminating the habitat, while also not supporting the locals due to governmental corruption.

I don't know what 'the sport' of it is exactly. It's not like they're terribly difficult to locate, once found the firepower we've developed makes taking one down relatively easy. They're basically defenseless, guess people who think they're important get off on this sort of behavior.

ElaineA · Mar 7, 2018

There was a picture attached to a tweet going around about this outrage. A family, Mom Dad, daughters, sons, grinning while huddled around a hunted elephant...with leaves still in it's mouth! I thought I was going throw up.

Contrary to the thread title, we aren't f***ing worthy of inhabiting this planet.

Justobuddies · Mar 7, 2018

Feel free not to tag me in that tweet, because that...well. I. just. can't.

I genuinely think there's enough of us that are decent fucking human beings that we can overthrow the bullshit fascist regimes that seem to be in control of everything.

So while I agree, that for now we're not worthy, we certainly can be.

Kjbartolotta · Mar 7, 2018

Fair points by all, but my current feels is that I'd rather have elephants and no humans than the opposite. Good Lord, what kind of mood am I in today?

Justobuddies · Mar 7, 2018

There's probably irony in the fact the GOP uses the elephant as a symbol of their party, I'm just not able to see it today.

Brightdreamer · Mar 7, 2018

ElaineA said:
Contrary to the thread title, we aren't f***ing worthy of inhabiting this planet.

Agreed. Even though the sane ones seem to outnumber the insane ones, it's the latter who keep a stranglehold on the power, in which case we all as a social species have failed in some fundamental manner. Don't worry, though - I expect it'll be taken care of before another few centuries are out. Even if life has to crawl back from the microbes and the water bears, something's going to outlive us, and here's hoping Nature doesn't make the same evolutionary mistake twice.

Roxxsmom · Mar 7, 2018

Kjbartolotta said:
There's a specific verse in the bible some evangelicals like to point to to justify an open contempt for nature & the stripping down of everything for parts. I'll try to find it at some point, but my take has always been that they're reading it wrong.

I suppose if you believe that the end is coming, and soon, then there's little incentive to conserve our natural resources. And if you believe only humans have souls, then it might follow that only human lives have worth.

I've known plenty of Christians who don't think this way, though. Some think it's a sin to ravage the Earth, and many point out that nowhere in the Bible does it say humans are the only creatures with souls (and there are plenty of places that imply God loves all creation).

As with other issues, I think religion is often an excuse for doing what you want to do anyway.

Brightdreamer · Mar 7, 2018

Roxxsmom said:
I suppose if you believe that the end is coming, and soon, then there's little incentive to conserve our natural resources. And if you believe only humans have souls, then it might follow that only human lives have worth.

Some of them even go so far as to think not all humans have souls. (And this isn't just those who believed/believe that only certain races were created by their God. My sister and I have been told we don't have them - not just because we're not Christian, but because we were both C-section babies, and only natural birth imparts a soul. I'm hard-pressed not to say that, if they're what having a soul looks like, I'm glad I don't have one.)

There's no reasoning with people that locked into the idea of their own divinely-blessed right to destroy everything and everyone else...

Roxxsmom · Mar 7, 2018

Brightdreamer said:
Some of them even go so far as to think not all humans have souls. (And this isn't just those who believed/believe that only certain races were created by their God. My sister and I have been told we don't have them - not just because we're not Christian, but because we were both C-section babies, and only natural birth imparts a soul. I'm hard-pressed not to say that, if they're what having a soul looks like, I'm glad I don't have one.)

There's no reasoning with people that locked into the idea of their own divinely-blessed right to destroy everything and everyone else...

Wow, I never heard that some people believed that about people delivered via C-section. There would be a lot of soulless people out there these days then, given how common it is. I remember there was a lot of angst over whether or not "test tube babies" would have souls or not. That seems to have quieted down now that the procedure is incredibly common. I have three nieces and one nephew, so far, who have been conceived via in vitro fertilization. I've not heard anyone imply that they don't have souls or are otherwise different from everyone else in any meaningful way.

I haven't run into many people, religious or otherwise, who believe in human souls who don't think animals have them, for that matter. Not since that night in the bunkhouse in horse camp (which turns out to have been run by evangelical Christians) where they scared us with stories of hell and told us that there would be no animals in Heaven, because they didn't have souls. My response, that it wouldn't be heaven without animals, shocked the counselors, I think, but the other kids agreed with me.

But whether or not humans, elephants, or anyone else has a soul is irrelevant. Importing body parts from endangered animals is wrong.

be frank · Mar 7, 2018

Every time I see this thread pop up, I've misread the title as "It's OUR planet, shouldn't WE ruin it?" and I keep thinking, "Hey, we're already doing a better job of it than anyone/anything else ever could!"

Of course, it turns out I just can't read...

Marian Perera · Mar 7, 2018

Brightdreamer said:
...we were both C-section babies, and only natural birth imparts a soul.

So innocent little unborn babies are soulless?

Brightdreamer · Mar 7, 2018

Marian Perera said:
So innocent little unborn babies are soulless?

If they were using logic, that would be a stumbling block. Fortunately, their arguments are entirely based on faith, "faith" being defined as whatever belief is most convenient for them (and most detrimental to women) at any given moment. (And, no, I have no idea of the rationale behind C-sections being soulless yet fetuses being ensouled... just relating what certain people of unkniwn Christian persuasion have said to us.)

Cyia · Mar 7, 2018

Brightdreamer said:
Some of them even go so far as to think not all humans have souls. (And this isn't just those who believed/believe that only certain races were created by their God. My sister and I have been told we don't have them - not just because we're not Christian, but because we were both C-section babies, and only natural birth imparts a soul. I'm hard-pressed not to say that, if they're what having a soul looks like, I'm glad I don't have one.)

There's no reasoning with people that locked into the idea of their own divinely-blessed right to destroy everything and everyone else...

Good grief - who told you that? I've heard the "sentient from conception" argument, but never "C-sections remove souls."

Kjbartolotta · Mar 7, 2018

I had a grandmother with some strong thoughts and who had souls and who didn't, I'm not even gonna say it but it's weirder and more specific than you think. I loved her, but God she was awful sometimes.

JimmyB27 · Mar 7, 2018

Brightdreamer said:
My sister and I have been told we don't have them - not just because we're not Christian, but because we were both C-section babies, and only natural birth imparts a soul.

So.....abortions are okay then?

Roxxsmom · Mar 8, 2018

JimmyB27 said:
So.....abortions are okay then?

Only if you cut into the mother's stomach to remove the embryo or fetus?

Technophobe · Mar 8, 2018

Roxxsmom said:
Only if you cut into the mother's stomach to remove the embryo or fetus?

Ah, the wonderful world of Insane Troll Logic.

Re: not taking care of the planet. I believe there are a few that think as follows: the world will be destroyed when god chooses. Therefore a) man cannot destroy the Earth unless it's god's will, and b) if it is god's will, trying to preserve it is basically trying to stop gods will. And put off Armageddon and the Return of Christ, which these people really want to happen sooner rather than later.

Justobuddies · Mar 9, 2018

Technophobe said:
Re: not taking care of the planet. I believe there are a few that think as follows: the world will be destroyed when god chooses. Therefore a) man cannot destroy the Earth unless it's god's will, and b) if it is god's will, trying to preserve it is basically trying to stop gods will. And put off Armageddon and the Return of Christ, which these people really want to happen sooner rather than later.

And yet the premise of the parable of Adam sets us (humanity) up as servants of god's creation.

Alas, it's too bad the 'messiah' came and voided the old covenants which give 'Christians' the right to do as they please. Never mind his actual words about loving the neighbor as oneself.

Lyv · Mar 16, 2018

Despicable (but consistent with the entire presidency and nothing unexpected if you paid attention during the election cycle):

Trump wildlife protection board stuffed with trophy hunters

A new U.S. advisory board created to help rewrite federal rules for importing the heads and hides of African elephants, lions and rhinos is stacked with trophy hunters, including some members with direct ties to President Donald Trump and his family.

A review by The Associated Press of the backgrounds and social media posts of the 16 board members appointed by Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke indicates they will agree with his position that the best way to protect critically threatened or endangered species is by encouraging wealthy Americans to shoot some of them.

One appointee co-owns a private New York hunting preserve with Trump’s adult sons.

It goes on from there.

ElaineA · Mar 16, 2018

The whole admin is despicable. :rant:

Its OUR planet, shouldn't WE run it?

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