Writing religious characters

morngnstar · Mar 8, 2018

Tazlima said:
Now, see, this is where we diverge. You read that post and saw a harmless attempt at explanation, a tool to be used or ignored as the one sees fit.

I read that post and saw an attempt to pretend I don't exist, accompanied by a passive-aggressive comment designed to quell dissenting opinions.

I guess I acknowledge that it could be taken either way. I just choose to give it the benefit of the doubt. I also lean toward the interpretation that it was an answer to the question asked rather than an intentional attempt to detail.

Zan75 · Mar 8, 2018

I'll throw in my own personal thought if that's alright Scorpio.

What if you think about something other than religion, say a freedom that you cherish, and look at your feelings (or society's feelings) towards it. Would you get into a fight over it if someone challenged you on it? Would you let the argument go? Where's the breaking point? If you went somewhere where that freedom wasn't the norm would you still openly support it, would you keep it to yourself, or maybe quietly teach it to others? Then transfer those feelings about said freedom to your characters religious beliefs. For instance, in America, there's a heated debated about the 2nd amendment and gun laws right now and the feelings on it run the spectrum. Those feelings and levels of commitment could be applied to a character's religious belief in a story, even though it's not about religion per say.

Cath · Mar 8, 2018

Okaaaay. Um, let’s focus on answering the original question, yes?

bombergirl69 · Mar 8, 2018

Tazlima said:
Ummm, no. It EXACTLY argues that atheism is not legit.

It attempts to support that claim by broadening the definition of "faith" to include "all worldviews," but the end result is still claiming that a particular group doesn't REALLY exist.

It's simultaneously insulting and nonsensical.

Imagine if I tried to claim, "Everyone's a vegetarian, even people who eat meat, because what are vegetarians except people who choose what food they put in their bodies? Sure, people have different diets, but everybody eats, and everybody has food preferences, some based on flavor, some based on health, and some based on the morality of how that food is procured, and that's what vegetarianism is REALLY about."

Sounds ridiculous, right? That's because words have not only meanings, but COMPLETE meanings. The above isn't technically false, insofar as vegetarians DO in fact, put a lot of thought into their diet, and yes, everybody does the same thing to some extent. However, the definition is incomplete, because it lacks the small but crucial detail that vegetarians choose their diet with the specific intent of omitting meat. Add that element (yanno, the DEFINING element), and the original premise, that "everyone is a vegetarian," proves to be patently false.

Incomplete definition = incorrect definition.

Re: giving athiests a way to understand theists... that's really not a problem. Athiests spend their entire lives surrounded by theists. Many were raised in one church or another, and many are former theists. We hear religious viewpoints all the time... everywhere. Many of us are closeted and perfectly capable of "passing" as a theist. I've worked in my current job for four years and haven't mentioned my athiesm once, because while my boss is an absolute sweetheart, she's also very religious and, based on what I've gleaned over time, I can pretty much guarantee she's in the "athiests are amoral monsters who are all going to Hell" camp. That's not exactly great for the ol' career path, so I keep my mouth shut, do my job, and once, when I couldn't get out of going, smiled and nodded my way through a freakin' Republican Prayer Breakfast (I'm not Republican, don't pray, and I generally skip breakfast, so... yeah).

I've done a lot of performing over the years, mostly singing, some theatre. Every show I've ever done, working with ostensibly secular groups, they say a group prayer before the performance. Every...single...one.... different countries, different groups. I've yet to find one that skipped that little ritual. And everyone assumes you're fine with it, because THEY'RE fine with it. So you have the choice of sitting out, which will probably lead to questions about your beliefs and likely a religious debate, but you're about to go onstage, and you want to focus. It's not the time or place for arguing, so you just go through the motions and wait for it to be over.

Religion is as omnipresent in an athiest's life as smog in LA. Sometimes there's less, and you can ignore it. Sometimes, when seen from the right angle, it's even kind of pretty. (I can appreciate religious art and music, even if I'm not a member of the faith that produced it). But whether it bothers you or not, it's everywhere and inescapable, and when it gets too thick it's cloying and choking. And if you dare stand up for yourself, even by simply politely excusing yourself from participating, you have to be prepared to defend your position. At best, you'll get people who accept it and move on... at worst, you get people who just can't let it go. I've known people who just refused to drop the subject; literally every time we spoke, they'd try to convert me, or convince me to go to church with them, "just to see that I really would like church, I just haven't found the right one!"

I had one friend who kept trying to bet me money that at some point in my life I'd "find Jesus." I pointed out that it was a stupid bet because there were only two possible outcomes. 1) I'd "find religion" at some point and have to give her money, or 2) I'd die an athiest. There was no scenario under which she would ever have to pay up, and I'd be an idiot to take a bet like that. Also, if her goal in making the bet was to convert me, it was STILL a stupid bet, because in the unlikely event I DID consider becoming religious, knowing I'd have to fork over money if I did would be disincentivising.

She interpreted my careful analysis of how stupid the bet was as a sign that she was wearing me down, and pushed the religious thing even harder after that. Literally every time we hung out, she'd insist on bringing it up, despite the fact that I made it very clear I had no interest in discussing the subject. ...that friendship didn't last.

People become athiests for different reasons, but no athiest I've ever known became an atheist simply because they lacked a proper understanding of theism or religion (not saying none exist, because it takes all kinds, but I've yet to meet someone like that).

Good post and I 'd agree that if someone told me that I needed to "find Jesus" or anything else in that vein I would be seriously irritated.

But, respect also goes both ways. I've heard plenty of the "opiate-of-the-masses/you-still-believe-in-that-shit?/religious-nut/God-squadder" distainful comments, coming from a smug, patronizing "You're just not as intellectually developed" perspective. Not impressed with that either. No one likes to have their beliefs dissed and you are very right that if my spiritual beliefs and practices are an issue in a friendship, that friendship will fail.

I guess the OP can take away that the term "religious people" can cover a lot--too much--ground and that specifics and research(reading, talking to people who are Catholic) are the way to go.

Tazlima · Mar 8, 2018

bombergirl69 said:
But, respect also goes both ways. I've heard plenty of the "opiate-of-the-masses/you-still-believe-in-that-shit?/religious-nut/God-squadder" distainful comments, coming from a smug, patronizing "You're just not as intellectually developed" perspective. Not impressed with that either. No one likes to have their beliefs dissed and you are very right that if my spiritual beliefs and practices are an issue in a friendship, that friendship will fail.

I guess the OP can take away that the term "religious people" can cover a lot--too much--ground and that specifics and research(reading, talking to people who are Catholic) are the way to go.

True. Sadly, that's one thing religion and atheism have in common. The people who yell about it the most tend to be the most obnoxious ones of the bunch.

I always figure religion carries a lot of benefits for the individual, separate from the belief system itself. It gives people solace through the hard times, provides a built-in social circle, gives young people practical experience in public speaking and music performance, there are a lot of pluses.

That's a large part of why I don't speak much about my athiesm. Let's say I had a heart-to-heart with someone and somehow managed to strip them of their religious beliefs with the sheer brilliance of my arguments (lol, like THAT would ever happen, but for argument's sake...). What have I done at that point? I've taken away something that enriched their lives. Something they enjoy. Something that provides value to them. And what do I give them in return? Nothing.

Something doesn't have to be tangible to have value, and if religion helps people muddle through this crazy, chaotic, wonderful, horrible world, who am I to take that away? If religion IS an opiate... well, there are a lot of people out there in pain, aren't there?

morngnstar · Mar 8, 2018

Tazlima said:
If religion IS an opiate... well, there are a lot of people out there in pain, aren't there?

Kind of like something I say. If religion is a crutch, well you don't go kicking people's crutches out from under them, do you?

Cath · Mar 8, 2018

Enough.

Focus on answering the OP or the thread will be closed.

Writing religious characters

morngnstar

Zan75

Cath

The mean one

bombergirl69

Tazlima

morngnstar

Cath

The mean one