Sleeping Play

HisWrite · Feb 19, 2018

Hello all,

This is my first attempt at jumping in the discussion. I would go as far to say that all of my erotica stories are taboo in one form or another. However, my latest involves a sleeping character and has a bit of a twist to it. Would love to see what others through of the fetish! I will admit that I was never fond of it, but then the right idea came along and pulled me in.

For me the erotic part, in my particular story, has to do with who the character is. She's are real nasty person! The story takes place at an office party where one of her employees plots revenge. Like I said, there will be a twist, but I am not sure how well the story will be received.

Maryn · Feb 20, 2018

Ordinarily I'm cool with any kink or fetish a writer gives their character, even if it's not my kink or fetish.

However, when something is happening to a person who is asleep, they cannot consent, and many readers and publishers have issues with that. Even if the person is a Big Meanie who richly deserves whatever happens as she sleeps, they can't be okay with it.

You'll see the terms non-con (for non-consensual) and dub con (for dubious consent) as things many publishers will not consider. I'm not sure what Amazon's or Smashword's standard is on either, but as others see this thread, I hope they'll let us know. Somebody always knows, right?

That said, though, of course there will be readers who are totally into it and will enjoy a well written story about it. It is, after all, a work of fiction, not something you're doing or condoning in real life. The trick may be finding your market and accessing its readers.

Maryn, hoping Mr. Maryn didn't empty the coffee pot

blackcat777 · Feb 20, 2018

Smashwords is okay with almost anything as long as it's labeled. They are implementing a new classification system (this article is September 2017):

http://blog.smashwords.com/2017/09/smashwords-erotica.html

Rape for titillation is a big NO for Amazon's (ever-shifting and pass-the-magic-eight-ball vague) self-publishing guidelines. Amazon is very strict with erotica, and cleanliness of cover/blurb/keywords. Note that this doesn't necessarily stop anyone from publishing the content (it's out there), but when it's caught, it gets sent to the dungeon and your books basically become invisible. You run the risk of being perma-banned from the platform if you do this. Tradpub books may be exempt from the rules.

The audience is another thing to consider. If you're trying to push the content in a place where readers aren't expecting dubcon/noncon, I would expect some hostility. Some of it is unavoidable, due to the subject matter, so proper labeling and marketing are key for both reaching the readers you want to reach, and signalling to those who don't want that content to pass over it. Forced seduction is huge in romance, and if you read the reviews for any bodice ripper, you're bound to find a few one-star ratings for rape, even among books that are clearly marketed as such.

HisWrite · Feb 20, 2018

Maryn said:
Ordinarily I'm cool with any kink or fetish a writer gives their character, even if it's not my kink or fetish.

However, when something is happening to a person who is asleep, they cannot consent, and many readers and publishers have issues with that. Even if the person is a Big Meanie who richly deserves whatever happens as she sleeps, they can't be okay with it.

You'll see the terms non-con (for non-consensual) and dub con (for dubious consent) as things many publishers will not consider. I'm not sure what Amazon's or Smashword's standard is on either, but as others see this thread, I hope they'll let us know. Somebody always knows, right?

That said, though, of course there will be readers who are totally into it and will enjoy a well written story about it. It is, after all, a work of fiction, not something you're doing or condoning in real life. The trick may be finding your market and accessing its readers.

Maryn, hoping Mr. Maryn didn't empty the coffee pot

Thank's Maryn! That is good to know. Funny how graphic violence can be glorified because the people are "bad", but when it comes to sex we shy away. Need I say more than the SAW film series? Society has weird views sometimes.

Don't get me wrong, I don't condone it in reality, no more that I would a character that burns down the villages of his enemies (killing man woman and child). They are just stories about characters and situations. I'd rather someone explore the scenario on the page than at the neighbor's door.

blackcat777 said:
Smashwords is okay with almost anything as long as it's labeled. They are implementing a new classification system (this article is September 2017):

http://blog.smashwords.com/2017/09/smashwords-erotica.html

Rape for titillation is a big NO for Amazon's (ever-shifting and pass-the-magic-eight-ball vague) self-publishing guidelines. Amazon is very strict with erotica, and cleanliness of cover/blurb/keywords. Note that this doesn't necessarily stop anyone from publishing the content (it's out there), but when it's caught, it gets sent to the dungeon and your books basically become invisible. You run the risk of being perma-banned from the platform if you do this. Tradpub books may be exempt from the rules.

The audience is another thing to consider. If you're trying to push the content in a place where readers aren't expecting dubcon/noncon, I would expect some hostility. Some of it is unavoidable, due to the subject matter, so proper labeling and marketing are key for both reaching the readers you want to reach, and signalling to those who don't want that content to pass over it. Forced seduction is huge in romance, and if you read the reviews for any bodice ripper, you're bound to find a few one-star ratings for rape, even among books that are clearly marketed as such.

Amazon has become rather annoying in recent years. Big companies that inflict their will on the population should stop. Okay, I'm done with my rant, haha, but seriously. Society is slowly being silenced and self-publishing has created a huge opening for ideas and voices to be heard that no one would dare take on in traditional.

Thank you for the advice! I might just steer clear of Amazon for this series. Over the years I have seen many outlets for these types of stories go away, Patreon being one of the most hypocritical considering how it made its money to start.

Noizchild · Feb 21, 2018

This really sounds interesting. I have a couple of ideas myself.

morngnstar · Feb 22, 2018

I mean the movie Talk to Her was a critical success. I think it avoided censure because it didn't appear to choose sides on the moral question. It just showed something happening and invited you to think about it. It's different if it's erotica and the explicit purpose is to get off on it.

For me, the idea that it's intended to be hurtful and that the victim supposedly deserves it makes it more unacceptable.

I would say there's a difference between justifiable violence and "justifiable rape". There's a notion, debatable though it is, that violence is sometimes a necessary part of selfless heroism. But rape has a selfish motive, and the rapist may reach to justify it. Excessive violence wouldn't be justifiable either in your mean boss scenario. And don't allow yourself the argument that sleeping rape is a lesser form of rape.

HisWrite · Feb 26, 2018

Noizchild said:
This really sounds interesting. I have a couple of ideas myself.

Would love to hear about them!

morngnstar said:
I mean the movie Talk to Her was a critical success. I think it avoided censure because it didn't appear to choose sides on the moral question. It just showed something happening and invited you to think about it. It's different if it's erotica and the explicit purpose is to get off on it.

For me, the idea that it's intended to be hurtful and that the victim supposedly deserves it makes it more unacceptable.

I would say there's a difference between justifiable violence and "justifiable rape". There's a notion, debatable though it is, that violence is sometimes a necessary part of selfless heroism. But rape has a selfish motive, and the rapist may reach to justify it. Excessive violence wouldn't be justifiable either in your mean boss scenario. And don't allow yourself the argument that sleeping rape is a lesser form of rape.

I make no argument that rape isn't wrong regardless of circumstance. If I hated someone that much it would be far from my mind as an option. But, in fantasy between consenting adults it can be erotic and acceptable—research suggest 50% women admit to fantasizing about it. Not only in articles, personal experience has confirmed women—when done safe between partners—enjoy this fantasy. Perhaps the titillation of the story of rape is the same concept of role playing a rape?

Take the film Law Abiding Citizen as an example of pleasurable violence and torture. Not for the greater good, but for selfish revenge. The main character's family was murdered in front of him and he was left alive. After the law system failed him, the murderer walked free taking a plea bargain. The grieving man takes things into his own hands and not only kills the man responsible for his family's death—the most violent torturous way possible—but also the law officials that allowed the plea bargain. The writer might have realized the main character was not a hero and switched perspective to a police officer to wrap up the end. Ultimately, the grieving man is killed before he can complete his plan. It's an interesting film because for so much of it we think the grieving man is the hero. Until the end.

Now, I can't say I have been in that character's shoes, but even thinking about losing my family in that way boils up some less than legal feelings. This is where the line between fantasy and reality comes into play for me. I know I would not do the things my fury would like me to, but the thought would be very appealing. Perhaps it's the notion that rape primarily affects women, so it could be perceived as targeting? However, along my research I discovered that a man raping another man has its demand, so perhaps it's the rape of women we focus on. Regardless, it's a sensitive topic and I understand that.

blackcat777 · Feb 26, 2018

Now, I can't say I have been in that character's shoes, but even thinking about losing my family in that way boils up some less than legal feelings. This is where the line between fantasy and reality comes into play for me. I know I would not do the things my fury would like me to, but the thought would be very appealing.

I absolutely love any literature that offers a cerebral exploration of sex/aggression/power dynamics. For me, there is a total sweet spot for sticking that metal fork in the socket, tracing out all the little crags in the line between human and animal. Also exploring that those lines can differ from person to person - a scary thought.

There are certain possible executions of the subject matter that would be of no interest to me, or that I might find trite or offensive. For me, so much of what works and what doesn't with erotica is the execution. Certain things that aren't my kink become immensely interesting if handled well. My favorite switches won't flip if the author doesn't treat the subject with the level of depth that I want.

Again, I do think proper marketing is a power move when dealing with high-voltage content, because some people's turn-ons are other people's triggers.

I absolutely in no way endorse violence against other human beings.

But I also don't endorse shaming of sexual fantasies. I see so much shaming (and "OMG this person is mentally ill!") when it comes to rape fantasies, and I think it's sad and inappropriate and insulting, because those fantasies can be hugely empowering and liberating for some people - as long as everything involved with the fantasy is consensual. I wish there were more discussion of taboo fantasies so they would become normalized, accepted and finally understood, maybe even appreciated. Evolution left a confusing mess of wires in our heads, some of which have no purpose in civilization anymore, but remain biologically active. Whatever I do behind closed doors to appreciate the totality of my existence does not equate to a desire for actual harm to myself or the harming of others.

If you could unfurl your genetic code and read the entire story of all the things your avatar did since you were a ball of slime, it would be the most fucked up story ever written. There is vorarephilia - the fetish of being eaten. I'm totally pointing the finger at balls of slime for that one.

The only moral of that particular story is, "whatever it took to survive and reproduce." Full stop. "Whatever" that was, evolution rewarded it.

And that's why we have e-readers.

The Black Prince · Feb 27, 2018

You're an interesting fellow blackcat. (By the way I used to have a black cat called Sauron who was the best cat in the history of the cosmos...but I digress.)

I promise not to make a habit of this (posting from my blog) but you might be interested in an old piece of mine which deals with the above...

https://adriandeans.wordpress.com/2...-reader-the-secret-world-of-the-unchained-id/

HisWrite · Feb 27, 2018

blackcat777 said:
I absolutely love any literature that offers a cerebral exploration of sex/aggression/power dynamics. For me, there is a total sweet spot for sticking that metal fork in the socket, tracing out all the little crags in the line between human and animal. Also exploring that those lines can differ from person to person - a scary thought.

There are certain possible executions of the subject matter that would be of no interest to me, or that I might find trite or offensive. For me, so much of what works and what doesn't with erotica is the execution. Certain things that aren't my kink become immensely interesting if handled well. My favorite switches won't flip if the author doesn't treat the subject with the level of depth that I want.

Again, I do think proper marketing is a power move when dealing with high-voltage content, because some people's turn-ons are other people's triggers.

I absolutely in no way endorse violence against other human beings.

But I also don't endorse shaming of sexual fantasies. I see so much shaming (and "OMG this person is mentally ill!") when it comes to rape fantasies, and I think it's sad and inappropriate and insulting, because those fantasies can be hugely empowering and liberating for some people - as long as everything involved with the fantasy is consensual. I wish there were more discussion of taboo fantasies so they would become normalized, accepted and finally understood, maybe even appreciated. Evolution left a confusing mess of wires in our heads, some of which have no purpose in civilization anymore, but remain biologically active. Whatever I do behind closed doors to appreciate the totality of my existence does not equate to a desire for actual harm to myself or the harming of others.

If you could unfurl your genetic code and read the entire story of all the things your avatar did since you were a ball of slime, it would be the most fucked up story ever written. There is vorarephilia - the fetish of being eaten. I'm totally pointing the finger at balls of slime for that one. The only moral of that particular story is, "whatever it took to survive and reproduce." Full stop. "Whatever" that was, evolution rewarded it.

And that's why we have e-readers.

Blackcat, you are brilliant. I agree that these things should not be shamed. Hell, people might even have these fantasies because they have been sexually shamed their whole lives. People explore ideas—which does not mean they must action them in real world conditions. I have lived a thousands lives in my own head—many through table top role playing games in my youth. A reasonable mind will know where that line between fantasy and harm. Don't make an unreasonable mind by shaming them until they feel worthless and hostile. The physiology of the thing is quite messy, I'm sure, but there is a magnetic pull to the subject. Few will disagree that the acts are wrong, yet many share the fantasy.

blackcat777 · Mar 7, 2018

I was doing some research on Grimm's and other creepy fairytales tonight, and had another thought for the OP: Sleeping Beauty was a well-received children's story.

morngnstar · Mar 8, 2018

HisWrite said:
I make no argument that rape isn't wrong regardless of circumstance. If I hated someone that much it would be far from my mind as an option. But, in fantasy between consenting adults it can be erotic and acceptable—research suggest 50% women admit to fantasizing about it. Not only in articles, personal experience has confirmed women—when done safe between partners—enjoy this fantasy. Perhaps the titillation of the story of rape is the same concept of role playing a rape?

I don't have a problem with rape fantasies. Actually disseminating rape erotica has different moral questions, because you might put a rape fantasy into someone's head that wasn't there before, and it might become an obsession. Or there is a concern about normalization. I'm not providing an answer to those questions, just posing them.

My main point is not to draw a distinction between sleeping rape and any other rape, which it seems like you're doing with the title of your post, "Sleeping Play". It's not play, it's violence. If you think rape erotica is okay, then unconscious rape erotica is okay. If you think rape erotica is not okay, then unconscious rape erotica is not okay.

The Black Prince · Mar 8, 2018

I honestly think people overthink rape when it comes to fiction.

Obviously rape in real life is very bad and can have horrific consequences - hence the very heavy penalties handed down by courts for people convicted of rape. Sentences can be more or less the same as for murder in Australia which is indicative of where we stand as a community.

But it does my head in when I hear people wanting to sanitise history in their fiction. If you don't want to feature rape in your stories, fine. But writers shouldn't be judged because they include rape in, say, a Napoleonic war story. Mass rape was always the inevitable end to a siege in those times - irrespective of the victors - and no amount of token hangings was going to prevent it.

It's all about context and appropriate sensitivity.

Anna Iguana · Mar 8, 2018

The Black Prince said:
I honestly think people overthink rape when it comes to fiction.

Obviously rape in real life is very bad and can have horrific consequences - hence the very heavy penalties handed down by courts for people convicted of rape. Sentences can be more or less the same as for murder in Australia which is indicative of where we stand as a community.

But it does my head in when I hear people wanting to sanitise history in their fiction. If you don't want to feature rape in your stories, fine. But writers shouldn't be judged because they include rape in, say, a Napoleonic war story. Mass rape was always the inevitable end to a siege in those times - irrespective of the victors - and no amount of token hangings was going to prevent it.

It's all about context and appropriate sensitivity.

Did I miss something in the thread? As far as I can tell nobody was making the argument you're knocking down. Not even close. You mention that context matters, and I'd agree.

Seems like there's a big difference between rape presented as horror, in historical fiction, and rape presented for titillation in erotica, which is what the OP seemed to be interested in doing, and which a few people have commented on/pushed back on.

The Black Prince · Mar 8, 2018

No they probably weren't making the argument I was knocking down, and I may have derailed the thread slightly.

It's just that I come across the over-sensitivity I was railing against so frequently it leapt a little too quickly into my thoughts.

Just ignore me until I recover.

Anna Iguana · Mar 8, 2018

The Black Prince said:
Just ignore me until I recover.

Will do.

Tough subject for me, too; appreciate the civility in this thread.

Maryn · Mar 9, 2018

Thanks, Anna. I, too, am pleased at the civility.

In days long gone by, this board had multiple major blow-ups about rape in erotic fiction, worsened by too many people adamant about their opinion being the only right one and trying to form alliances in a war over it. Friendships were strained, beta reads suspended, and there were hard feelings all around, including huge discomfort for the bystanders, and IIRC, a temporary ban or two for those who refused to follow AW's one rule, Respect Your Fellow Writer.

So I, too, am appreciative of the civility and care with language you all are exercising here. Way to RYFW, people! (And iguanas, of course. Mustn't forget the iguanas.)

Maryn, adorable in her mod hat

Noizchild · Mar 9, 2018

I might have to look into sleeping play myself.

Fallen · Mar 9, 2018

I've handled some pretty extreme things, even down to insect play during a sex scene. I think it all comes down to the tag and pov, though.

Although I've used the likes of insect play, the tag it goes under is more horror/psych thriller than erotica. The insects are used in a sex scene, and one guy does get off on it, but his victim doesn't (neither does the insect!). It's rape and not done to titillate the reader, but to show emerging psychopath tendencies. But here, it was done form the victim's pov.

I've also handled rape-fantasy within BDSM, but the difference there is that there's clear lines of safety, security, consent... and some pissing about with it too on the characters' part: again from the 'victim's' pov. Amazon has been fine with those.

One of the most famous books I remember for getting banned on Amazon, and I won't name it here because it's an open board, did deal explicitly with rape from the antagonist's pov, and yeah, the author covered how the guy was sent to prison for it. Another novel that looked at rape was banned because it went under erotica, but when it was changed to horror, it wasn't banned.

Writing from the victim's pov becomes standard to avoid banning as that empathy level is there with victim. But when it comes to the rapist? it loses that empathy level and would shift tags from it being erotica into other areas, for me at least. Does it stop me reading it? If it's tagged correctly, no. Human nature isn't sugar and spice, and I like to delve into the heads of those who should end up behind bars or have flesh stripped raw for what they do. But when I read that side of life, I read it for the content of someone's head and to explore why they've done what they have and what consequences they know they'll face.

Now, if two people agree to some sleep play, that's something different altogether, it could be a lot of fun as a kink....

So I'd just think about how you'd want readers to empathize with your sleep seeker.

The Black Prince · Mar 10, 2018

Okay, I'm still stewing about this topic a bit.

This is what I had to say about it when attacked for my views on another forum a couple of years ago...

https://adriandeans.wordpress.com/2012/05/28/rape-in-fiction-can-it-ever-be-funny-9-2/

Sleeping Play

HisWrite

Maryn

Baaa!

blackcat777

HisWrite

Noizchild

morngnstar

HisWrite

blackcat777

The Black Prince

HisWrite

blackcat777

morngnstar

The Black Prince

Anna Iguana

reading all the things

The Black Prince

Anna Iguana

reading all the things

Maryn

Baaa!

Noizchild

Fallen

Stood at the coalface

The Black Prince