Technology Question

Enlightened

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I'm about ready to write my first book. If it does well, it will become a series. If it tanks, off to oblivion.

My target audience, throughout the series, is both MG and YA. I've designed a way to make this plausible (dependent upon numerous variables that are immaterial to this post). This question is mostly for MG readers. A month or two ago, I helped my nephew with his homework. We both did not know what a technical jargon word was in one of the assignments. He forgot his notebook at school. Instinctively, he jumped on his phone and asked Siri for a definition of the word he did not know. He is 12.

I created a database with over 1,000 chapter titles. Most are designed to be humorous to MG and YA readers. There are a few that have big words that most adults do not know what they mean. These are words that are recognizable, but undefinable to young readers. An example might be an obscure -ology. They may recognize ology as the study of something, but will likely not know the study of what it means. These are real words, not made up ologies.

With apps like Siri and Alexa, do you think MG readers are savvy enough to think like this, on their own accords (affording authors to use an occasional big word, if it is germane to the story)? Do you think there is a minimum age most young readers may not think of doing something like this?

Thank you.
 

cornflake

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I think you're probably underestimating kids (and adults) in their vocabularies, ability to look something up, and level of interest in looking something up, heh.

Full disclosure -- I'd have whipped the phone out of that kid's hand and told him to get a damned dictionary. I don't even allow dictionary.com in my presence, nevermind fucking Siri. Use your hands.
 

Enlightened

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When I was in high school, many teachers taught us that the average American only reads at a 5th grade comprehension level. I am sure, if this information was accurate back in the late 80s/early 90s, it must be a little higher now (maybe 8th grade). This is a lot of assumption without any merit.

Even if only partly true, I want to maximize my demographic of potential readers. If readers don't know words, especially at the younger ages, I want them to have a means of - at the very least - defining something at a remote location without dictionary.

I disagree. I think some kids, under 9 or 10, might not have the savvy to do what my nephew did. Maybe I am wrong.
 
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cornflake

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When I was in high school, many teachers taught us that the average American only reads at a 5th grade comprehension level. I am sure, if this information was accurate back in the late 80s/early 90s, it must be a little higher now (maybe 8th grade). This is a lot of assumption without any merit.

I don't know why you'd think it'd be higher. Regardless, we're talking about people who read books of their own accord.

Even if only partly true, I want to maximize my demographic of potential readers. If readers don't know words, especially at the younger ages, I want them to have a means of - at the very least - defining something at a remote location without dictionary.

Again, I don't think people, especially kids, tend to look up words they don't know in books that often. Either they pick up meaning contextually or they just blow by -- and you're talking about chapter headings, which people blow by regardless. If someone wants to know the definition of a word, they'll look it up. Schoolkids are more than capable of looking up words.

I disagree. I think some kids, under 9 or 10, might not have the savvy to do what my nephew did. Maybe I am wrong.

I think you're wrong, heh. In my experience the default setting for kids is to ask/look on their phones. Hence I'll grab for it before a kid can use it as a calculator, dictionary, etc., and I have to be fast.
 

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Thanks for the input. Appreciated!

Any input, from others, appreciated as well!
 

Maggie Maxwell

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If a child is curious about a word, they will look it up whichever way they have available. I remember looking up words half a dozen times in a chapter if I didn't understand them when I was 6 or 7.
 

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Any comments on what literary agents, editors, and publishers might think of use of such words in chapter titles?
 

Marissa D

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Any comments on what literary agents, editors, and publishers might think of use of such words in chapter titles?

You're putting the cart before the horse. Chapter titles (or any other titles) or any "difficult words" they might contain are irrelevant. If the story doesn't grab them, an amazing chapter title won't change their minds; if they love the story but are iffy on the chapter titles, they'll let you know during the editorial stage once your story's been acquired.

Tl;dr: the story is what's important.
 

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Of course. Creative chapter titles are one way I will help keep MG reader interest.
 

cornflake

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I really think people tend to just blow by them, or notice them for a moment. The story is what holds interest or not. I've never heard anyone say (or thought) 'you have to read this book; the chapter titles are so cool!'
 

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I always look at the Table of Contents before I buy an MG/YA fiction book. For me, the chapter titles tell how deep an author goes into being creative. If they do not have, at least, some creative chapter titles, I think of them as being lazy.

Rowling had some creative titles for chapters. For example, veritaserum (truth serum).
 
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cornflake

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I always look at the Table of Contents before I buy an MG/YA fiction book. For me, the chapter titles tell how deep an author goes into being creative. If they do not have, at least, some creative chapter titles, I think of them as being lazy.

Rowling had some creative titles for chapters. For example, veritaserum (truth serum).

Ok. I don't know how common that is, especially among actual kids. I don't do that and never did, never even occurred to me, but maybe it's me.
 

Cyia

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I disagree. I think some kids, under 9 or 10, might not have the savvy to do what my nephew did. Maybe I am wrong.

Any kid with access to technology is going to be proficient in that technology long before the adults in their sphere. Kids learn how to do things much faster, mainly because they're not unlearning previous gen. tech or old ideas.

There's a reason "Google" is a verb.

Also - chapter titles don't keep anyone's interest, especially not a kid who doesn't like the book itself.

MG and YA are vastly different in age and approach. MG is 8-12, while YA is teens, with 13 being a nebulous sort of age. You're not going to have a book that's both. It might cross-over like Harry Potter or Percy Jackson, but it's not both.
 
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Marissa D

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I always look at the Table of Contents before I buy an MG/YA fiction book. For me, the chapter titles tell how deep an author goes into being creative. If they do not have, at least, some creative chapter titles, I think of them as being lazy.

Um, honestly, I don't think it's a matter of laziness or lack of creativity--more a matter of artistic choice. And at least in YA, it's at least as common NOT to title chapters--perhaps more often than not. It's certainly your prerogative to judge books that way, but... :Shrug:
 

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Any kid with access to technology is going to be proficient in that technology long before the adults in their sphere. Kids learn how to do things much faster, mainly because they're not unlearning previous gen. tech or old ideas.

There's a reason "Google" is a verb.

Also - chapter titles don't keep anyone's interest, especially not a kid who doesn't like the book itself.

MG and YA are vastly different in age and approach. MG is 8-12, while YA is teens, with 13 being a nebulous sort of age. You're not going to have a book that's both. It might cross-over like Harry Potter or Percy Jackson, but it's not both.

Crossover is correct, yes.
 

Lauram6123

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Okay, I just interviewed my 12-year-old.

I asked him if when he picks up a book in a book store, would he want to buy it more if it had cool chapter titles. He said, no, if he picks it up, that means he wants to buy it no matter what the chapter titles are.

He went on to say that he does notice chapter titles, but only after he owns the book. He brought me the book he's currently reading and showed me the chapter titles, which apparently he feels are "dumb." Why? They are all one-word and boring.

Also, when he doesn't know a word, he usually asks me or his father what it means. If we're not around, he'll ask Alexa or Siri.
 
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Brightdreamer

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Crossover is correct, yes.

I think what Cyia is saying is that this is difficult to see this happening successfully in one book. HP and PJ were series - they started MG, and "aged up" with the characters, but each book in those series had a distinct target. What you seem to be talking about here is writing one book that will appeal to both demographics simultaneously - in addition to trying to appeal to very young kids, kids who don't know how (or don't feel compelled) to look up words they don't understand, kids who need clever chapter titles to keep them reading, older kids who might not want to read down as well as younger kids not ready to read up... You're not going to have one book that appeals to absolutely everyone in the MG and YA age ranges. You just aren't. Interests and reading levels and overall skill levels are just too diverse for a catch-all. Trying to broaden your net that wide, or deliberately lowering the bar to the ground, is going to hurt more than it helps.

Right now, I'd suggest focusing on writing your story - at least getting a solid working draft done.

And I agree on kids being pretty tech-savvy, if they've been exposed to tech. Part of it, I think, is they lack the habits or the fears that hold too many adults back; it's just a tool to them. Turning to a dictionary or (more likely) Google or Siri or so forth would likely be second nature - plus, if you're doing an eBook, it's often easy to just tap/select the word in question and get an on-demand definition. I wouldn't overthink this too much. Like chapter titles, this is something that can be dealt with in revisions, and possibly hashed out with an editor if you land a contract.

(And on the reading level thing... IIRC, that 5th-grade-average reading level thing is still the rule of thumb, at least for American audiences. I took a video course on writing for web content a year ago, and that was roughly what they were advocating writing to for general consumption. If anything, I'd think that level would've dropped, given how people tend to multitask and skim as a matter of course. I would not take this as an excuse to "write down," but as a need to keep your readers interested. Besides, habitual hobby readers are going to have a higher average skill level.)
 
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Enlightened

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Thank you, Lauram6123, for going the extra mile. Greatly appreciated!! Please tell your son thank you from me, as well. This is absolutely fantastic information. Cheers!
 

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Brightdreamer: Mine will be series, but I will make the first book standalone. It will have a satisfying conclusion in and of itself. My concept is to cater to both, as much as possible, without turning away agents, editors, publishers, and the readers themselves. Rowling tried doing this, after book 3, but may have lost some MG readers in the later books (with Order of the Phoenix, American edition, topping out at 870 pages, more dark themes, and so forth).

What I am doing is experimental. I want to see, to what degree, I can include both MG/YA without being too detrimental to my project, it's potential, and so forth. Of course, writing is paramount.

Thank you for the advice!
 

cornflake

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She didn't -- she wrote MG and her characters, and thus the books, aged up into YA.
 

Enlightened

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Her books are aged up to adult, as many bought them. After Azkaban, the books turned into creations considerably different. They were much thicker, darker/more killing, characters having more mature romantic feelings, and so forth. Call it what you like, but MG - from what I learned from Sanderson - does not include such levels of romantic interest developed for the YA market.
 

cornflake

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Her books are aged up to adult, as many bought them. After Azkaban, the books turned into creations considerably different. They were much thicker, darker/more killing, characters having more mature romantic feelings, and so forth. Call it what you like, but MG - from what I learned from Sanderson - does not include such levels of romantic interest developed for the YA market.

Right, because her characters, and thus the books she was writing, aged into YA books. They're not meant to be MG books, the middle/later of the series. The series STARTS as MG but as the characters age, that changes.
 

Cyia

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Brightdreamer: Mine will be series, but I will make the first book standalone. It will have a satisfying conclusion in and of itself. My concept is to cater to both<--- Unless you're self publishing, you're not going to do this , as much as possible, without turning away agents<--- pitching it as MG & YA will turn off agents, who will assume you don't know your market or target audience, editors, publishers<--- Pictching it as MG & YA will turn off publishers (who are the ones who assign your editor), as they will assume you don't know your market or target audience., and the readers themselves<-- labelled as MG & YA, you won't get your book to readers through commercial channels.. Rowling tried doing this<-- No, she didn't She wrote to her audience and her market. Books 1-3 were MG, as fitting the characters' ages and voices, and the level of violence and complexity, after book 3, but may have lost some MG readers in the later books (with Order of the Phoenix, American edition, topping out at 870 pages, more dark themes, and so forth)<--- Again, no. She was now writing solidly YA novels, with YA characters and YA voice / expectation. her audience aged along with her characters, but the books had high crossover appeal (which is not something you get to label the book yourself).

What I am doing is experimental <--- not as a debut author, you're not. Experimentation is a perk of proven sales records.. I want to see, to what degree, I can include both MG/YA without being too detrimental to my project, it's potential, and so forth<--- In short, labeling it both YA & MG will shut more doors to you than it will open. Of course, writing is paramount. <--- And what form does that writing take? What voice? What age are the characters?

Thank you for the advice!

You write either a MG or YA book, and hope to catch an agent's attention. You *can* say that the book is a standalone with series potential. You *might* say it's got crossover potential. That's it.
 

Enlightened

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Of course. Maybe this can be called an reader-age arc. However, Rowling failed to keep ties with her original intent (MG). We see, from some of the later movies, that fun things are added (for MG interest in movies). One example is I believe from Half-Blood Prince movie. During the Christmas time, a mini elf is seen ice skating on a white-frosted cake on the table. I can't say this was in the book or not, but I think Rowling did a disservice by not adding in some occasional fun things (that can add interest for MGs to read the later books with fun things.

Just my 2¢.