What is your opinion on multiple POVs (3rd person)

vhilal · Feb 19, 2018

Hi, I've written a speculative fiction novel, and I've been told to "watch out for multiple POVs"--that agents (and readers) hate them.

For my novel I use them a few times because I want the reader to get a small taste (not an information dump) of the characters' back-stories, inner thoughts, and, especially, feelings towards my MC. This information is highly relevant, but the reader will not understand how it all ties together until the end of the novel. Also, I feel like it would be awkward for a tough character, for example, to admit that she conflicts with the MC because she reminds her of herself when she was younger; on the other hand, she can have an inner conversation or memory about something she did in the past that was "pathetic" from her point of view now.

I'm curious how others feel about this? Do you agree with "watch out" and "everyone hates them" or do you find them useful and not to be avoided at all costs?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Kolta · Feb 19, 2018

vhilal said:
Hi, I've written a speculative fiction novel, and I've been told to "watch out for multiple POVs"--that agents (and readers) hate them.

I think agents might have specific reasons for not liking them, (weren't necessary to a specific story, weren't very well done by the author, etc.) but agents hating them, period, doesn't ring true to me.

For my novel I use them a few times because I want the reader to get a small taste (not an information dump) of the characters' back-stories, inner thoughts, and, especially, feelings towards my MC. This information is highly relevant, but the reader will not understand how it all ties together until the end of the novel.

Sorry, but that does sound a little like info-dumping. It's not moving the story forward, only pays off at the very end, and illustrates things that should become apparent as the story unfolds.

Also, I feel like it would be awkward for a tough character, for example, to admit that she conflicts with the MC because she reminds her of herself when she was younger

Depends on how it's done? Just because the character is admitting a commonality, doesn't mean they have to have a heart-to-heart. She could be condescending, take note of the MC's lack of experience, youth, naivety, whatever else, be that much more harsh in her assessment of the MC because she had been there at one point and has, in her eyes, risen above it and become tougher. Or whatever suits the story.

I'm curious how others feel about this? Do you agree with "watch out" and "everyone hates them" or do you find them useful and not to be avoided at all costs?

They can be useful. Use them if you need them. I don't know if you need them. I'm not sure about the length you're going with? Would there be entire chapters putting the story on hold to focus on back-stories and inner thoughts? If they are quite short, could these details not somehow come up in narration and the characters' dialogue?

Hope this helps.

talktidy · Feb 19, 2018

Well my work in progress uses multiple povs. It's what I wanted and how I wanted to write it. On the other hand, there is no way this first project of mine is going anywhere near an agent. Its length is ridiculous, for one. I regard it as a teaching exercise and it has been most illuminating in showing me where my deficiencies lie, which owes nothing to my pov choices.

IMO there is a lot to be said for writing what appeals and what interests a writer, because unless those elements are present, the book stands a good chance of never being completed.

Maryn · Feb 19, 2018

While I acknowledge that there are valid reasons for using multiple POVs, too often they're not necessary. If you want to inform the reader about what other characters do or think or where they came from, there are other ways.

Read a modern mystery novel. They're nearly always in first person or close third, the whole way through, yet the reader knows all about the bad guy's background, what drives the cop who won't cooperate with the private detective, and what the on-again-off-again girlfriend's issue is. Make sure as you read that you note exactly how the author imparts this information. (It's way too easy to just get lost in the enjoyment of a good read!)

Maryn, who recommends introducing a new character who needs to be told things as one method of giving info

Harlequin · Feb 19, 2018

I think they're very common, very effective when done well, and very popular. If agents hate multiple pov by default that's news to me. They're sort of a staple of fantasy publishing and a lot of my favorite novels use them well.

I've done multiple pov and enjoy it more than single pov; it's (for me) more interesting to write and can be a fun way to explore unreliable narrators. I think it was a strength of the MS I used it for (note: not saying the MS was strong, only that multiple pov wasn't it's weakness; that would probably be plot...)

Lakey · Feb 19, 2018

Are you sure that it’s multiple POVs that you’re being warned against, rather than inconsistent POV, or head-hopping? Or, perhaps, showing the same scene multiple times from different POVs? I am sorry if I’m on the wrong track, but “people hate multiple POVs” is so broad and so demonstrably false that I wonder if it’s an oversimplification or a misdiagnosis (by you, or by a beta reader, or by someone else) of what you’re really being warned against.

lizmonster · Feb 19, 2018

vhilal said:
Hi, I've written a speculative fiction novel, and I've been told to "watch out for multiple POVs"--that agents (and readers) hate them.

Curious where you heard this.

vhilal said:
For my novel I use them a few times because I want the reader to get a small taste (not an information dump) of the characters' back-stories, inner thoughts, and, especially, feelings towards my MC. This information is highly relevant, but the reader will not understand how it all ties together until the end of the novel. Also, I feel like it would be awkward for a tough character, for example, to admit that she conflicts with the MC because she reminds her of herself when she was younger; on the other hand, she can have an inner conversation or memory about something she did in the past that was "pathetic" from her point of view now.

I'm with Kolta in that this sounds a bit like infodumping, which is a different problem and unrelated to POV. (Of course I can't say for sure without seeing an example - what you describe can work, but as described it raises some flags.)

vhilal said:
I'm curious how others feel about this? Do you agree with "watch out" and "everyone hates them" or do you find them useful and not to be avoided at all costs?

I don't think any POV is something to "watch out" for, and I'm unaware of any blanket industry prohibition. Readers (including agents) may have personal preferences, but you should write the story the way it needs to be written.

Bufty · Feb 19, 2018

Either whoever told you that doesn't know what they're talking about, or you may have misunderstood what they said.

Nothing inherently wrong with using multiple 3rd person POV's at all.

mrsmig · Feb 19, 2018

Multiple POVs are common, especially in third-person narratives. (I use them in my series.)

However, be careful not to use too many different POVs. It can be both confusing and distancing for the reader.

vhilal · Feb 19, 2018

Lakey said:
Are you sure that it’s multiple POVs that you’re being warned against, rather than inconsistent POV, or head-hopping? Or, perhaps, showing the same scene multiple times from different POVs? I am sorry if I’m on the wrong track, but “people hate multiple POVs” is so broad and so demonstrably false that I wonder if it’s an oversimplification or a misdiagnosis (by you, or by a beta reader, or by someone else) of what you’re really being warned against.

I'm wondering if perhaps many writers do what you suggested (head-hop or have inconsistent POVs) and that prompted the comments I'm referring to. The comments came from a seasoned author who has not read my work (yet) so isn't judging my work specifically. Maybe he's just a POV hater, whereas I personally love multiple POVs as long as it's not head-hopping.

Harlequin · Feb 19, 2018

Perhaps he's talking about POV mixing, or is only referencing his own genre.

I've read head hopping done well (subjective opinion, that).

vhilal · Feb 19, 2018

Kolta said:
I think agents might have specific reasons for not liking them, (weren't necessary to a specific story, weren't very well done by the author, etc.) but agents hating them, period, doesn't ring true to me.

Sorry, but that does sound a little like info-dumping. It's not moving the story forward, only pays off at the very end, and illustrates things that should become apparent as the story unfolds.

Depends on how it's done? Just because the character is admitting a commonality, doesn't mean they have to have a heart-to-heart. She could be condescending, take note of the MC's lack of experience, youth, naivety, whatever else, be that much more harsh in her assessment of the MC because she had been there at one point and has, in her eyes, risen above it and become tougher. Or whatever suits the story.

They can be useful. Use them if you need them. I don't know if you need them. I'm not sure about the length you're going with? Would there be entire chapters putting the story on hold to focus on back-stories and inner thoughts? If they are quite short, could these details not somehow come up in narration and the characters' dialogue?

Hope this helps.

Wow, thank you for your detailed response. You've given me a lot to think about. Overall, I'm relieved to hear that not everyone hates them. The POVs I've chosen do advance the plot. I dedicate an entire chapter to a POV when I use it, but the everything continues to unfold in real time. For example, something happens to my MC at one point and one of the secondary character's POV comes in during her absence. In any case, I'm going to reread all the POVs for unconscious info-dumping b/c now that you've called me on it maybe I am doing that...hmm.

vhilal · Feb 19, 2018

Harlequin said:
Perhaps he's talking about POV mixing, or is only referencing his own genre.

It could very well be that. Honestly, I was a bit intimidated as a newbie to dig for a deeper explanation or challenge it :-(

vhilal · Feb 19, 2018

talktidy said:
Well my work in progress uses multiple povs. It's what I wanted and how I wanted to write it. On the other hand, there is no way this first project of mine is going anywhere near an agent. Its length is ridiculous, for one. I regard it as a teaching exercise and it has been most illuminating in showing me where my deficiencies lie, which owes nothing to my pov choices.

IMO there is a lot to be said for writing what appeals and what interests a writer, because unless those elements are present, the book stands a good chance of never being completed.

Thank you for responding. Mine has been a continuous learning experience too, and who knows, maybe I'll toss it in the end and start on something new (so many ideas a'bubbling!). You're correct about writing about what interests you, though. My professional and educational background pushed me towards non-fiction at first, but I thought I might leap off a cliff after a week at it--felt like a never-ending homework assignment instead of fun. I switched to fiction and love it. Good luck with your book and your development as a writer

Elle. · Feb 19, 2018

I think they are 3 really distinctive possibilities:

- Multiple POVs: where you tend to have a different POV per chapter and rotate them depending on who needs to tell which part of the story. I've never heard agents saying they stay away from them, and it's a big no-no. Reader-wise it's like everything else, some like it, some don't

- 3rd POV omniscient: when the narrator knows the thoughts and feelings of all protagonists throughout the whole story. Extremely hard to pull off IMO, but it can be done, some authors are masters are it.

- Head-hopping: when an author randomly and inconsistently dip in and out of other protagonists POV, that is something that agents don't like as it shows a lack of consistency in the POV.

From what you are saying you are in the first category so I wouldn't worry. Remember you can't please everyone so go with whatever feels right for your story.

lizmonster · Feb 19, 2018

vhilal said:
The comments came from a seasoned author who has not read my work (yet) so isn't judging my work specifically.

So...there's a difference between being a good author and being a good teacher. There are authors who are both, but in a lot of cases...an author can tell you how they write, and what does and doesn't work for them, but they can't tell you what works best for your stories. And sometimes (not necessarily with this person!) that comes across as "This is Just Correct" when they really don't know that.

I've heard things like "second person isn't popular," "first person is big in YA," and "omni is out of fashion these days," but those are all statements about the market, and are at least partially subjective.

For my own work (speaking of telling what works for me

), I find a particular story pulls me toward a particular POV. It's part of the whole atmosphere I'm trying to build. If I chose POV based on popularity...maybe I'd be more successful, but I wouldn't be enjoying myself as much.

morngnstar · Feb 19, 2018

What sounds iffy about your plan is that it sounds like you will be bringing in other POVs briefly. I think it's better to have a limited number of POVs (say 1-4) and weave them in and out throughout the book. I think it will be jarring if you take a character who's been non-POV for a third of the book and suddenly have their POV for one chapter. I think you have the wrong reason for multiple POVs. Don't do it just to explain one motivation for one event in the book. There are lighter-weight ways to do that.

ironmikezero · Feb 19, 2018

FWIW . . . The simplest (and perhaps wisest) advice I ever heard of in reference to avoiding the landmines of head-hopping (no matter how many POVs might be in a given work) was one POV per scene (or chapter, if the author is so inclined); and make that POV immediately clear (never invite and do your best to avoid reader confusion).

BethS · Feb 19, 2018

vhilal said:
Hi, I've written a speculative fiction novel, and I've been told to "watch out for multiple POVs"--that agents (and readers) hate them.

I don't know who told you that, but it's quite a generalization. Everyone has preferences, sure. But plenty of writers use multi-POV and are publishing and selling just fine.

So if there's an issue with multi-POV, it may come down to how many POVs there are and how they're handled.

vhilal · Feb 19, 2018

A humble thanks to everyone for their comments and advice to my question. I'm new to AW but am so impressed by the wide range of experiences and willingness to help.

indianroads · Feb 19, 2018

I think the problem with multiple POV's is making sure your reader knows whose head they're in. For me as a reader, I don't mind a changing POV when it's done in separate chapters.

Bottom line is (IMO) if you do it well, using multiple POV's is fine - so it's all about execution.

blacbird · Feb 19, 2018

I am currently reading a mystery thriller by Norwegian writer Jo Nesbo that operates with multiple POVs (some 3rd, at least on in 1st-person), and it is very well done. Each POV is strictly controlled, and set apart in individual scenes.

Remember, above all else, that you need to control each POV within its own limits and discipline, and not drift unconsciously into the All-over-the-place POV which I've seen too often in manuscripts I've critiqued.

caw

Odile_Blud · Feb 19, 2018

That's how I tend to write. I used to write pretty much only first person, but third multiple allowed me to get into everyone's heads without having to go omniscient, so I got no problem with it.

The Urban Spaceman · Feb 19, 2018

vhilal said:
This information is highly relevant, but the reader will not understand how it all ties together until the end of the novel.

Then you probably lost the reader quite early in the book. Having read various bits and pieces of writing advice over the years, the general rule of thumb seems to be, "Don't Keep Important Information From The Reader"—the exception being mystery writing, in which it's not a bad thing to ask your reader to speculate and challenge them to solve the mystery

A very large portion of certain genres of stories are told in multiple POVs: two (or maybe three) for Romance (three assuming some sort of triangle aspect), potentially much more in fantasy (with the potential for dozens, if you're talking about a long-running series of novels) and ditto for comics/graphic novels (which I do count).

I'm curious how others feel about this? Do you agree with "watch out" and "everyone hates them" or do you find them useful and not to be avoided at all costs?

I don't agree with that, but I do agree with others that it's the execution and how the characters are utilised that defines whether I will like what you're doing. And if you're head-hopping, well that's just a big fat no from me.

screenscope · Feb 19, 2018

My novel is told from the POV of 26 characters and it was bought by a traditional publisher, so I doubt there are any issues other than the personal preferences of individual agents or publishers.

I don't know if it would work every time, but it's a terrific way to tell a story.

What is your opinion on multiple POVs (3rd person)

vhilal

Kolta

talktidy

Maryn

Baaa!

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

Lakey

professional dilettante

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

mrsmig

Write. Write. Writey Write Write.

vhilal

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

vhilal

vhilal

vhilal

Elle.

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

morngnstar

ironmikezero

practical experience, FTW

BethS

vhilal

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

blacbird

Odile_Blud

-_-

The Urban Spaceman

Existential quandary

screenscope