What is your opinion on multiple POVs (3rd person)

blackcat777 said:

Here's a question: for those of you who write multiple POVs, how do you determine which POVs are truly necessary to the story?

Sometimes I find single POV challenging (like a blindfolded, one-handed swordfight), because at times it would be *easier* to convey information to the reader if I took on an additional POV. However, sometimes I feel like adding POVs is like a shortcut, and with enough examination, I can find clever ways to convey that information with a single POV. Usually. So I'm curious about that fine line between economy and self-flagellation.

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Four things:

1. Does this character have a complete arc.
2. Do I want to tell that character's arc?
3. Does that arc fit the overarching theme to my story?
4. Is the story better if I add this POV?

The answer has to be yes to all four.

BethS said:

I wish I had a nice, neat answer to that, but the truth is, for me, I began adding viewpoints to my story when a character would start speaking to me, indicating that their story needed to be told.

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For me, it's a combination of this, and sometimes needing another perspective on the story. Early drafts of my first book had only two points of view, but because of the relative geography of the events, I needed another somewhere else. And of course he started complicating the plot and affecting the outcome, and another character started yakking at me, and then there were four.

I've done five now and then (and it looks like I will be again), and that really skirts the edge for me in terms of keeping it all straight in my head. It's convenient, having so many different perspectives to call on; but yeah, it gets complicated switching POVs while still keeping the narrative moving.

1. Does this character have a complete arc.
2. Do I want to tell that character's arc?
3. Does that arc fit the overarching theme to my story?
4. Is the story better if I add this POV?

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This is brilliant.

I'm using three POVs in my current pulp series. Two main, and one minor. The two main POVs are used in every book to date, while the minor one has only appeared in two books; that's to say that I've used that character's POV in only two books, the character is in all the books. One of the two main POVs is very intellectual and detached, while the other is more emotional and impulsive.

I don't get the impression that agents hate them, but I can totally understand how genre and targeted age group would affect an agents wishlist. They might have a wide array of preferences and opinions, but are only asking for what they think the publishers think they can sell.

While my experience is limited, I think one of the keys is to at least make an effort to figure out what their looking for and up-play the aspects of your ms that will help sell it. It might seem disingenuous, but that's the business part of it.

And that's why I would say don't tailor your writing to a market's whims, it's not likely to leave anyone satisfied.

Just to be a pedant (sorry) but I do think you can tailor a MS to a market. Indies do it all the time--it's how they make their money, mostly.

Some things change and very fickle but certain elements are relatively consistent or long lasting.

I'd agree. It's entirely sensible to understand the market you're working in and know how your story meets that market's needs. That's not the same thing as chasing trends.

Multiple POV's are fine as long as they fit the story and are not head hopping. That is what was probably meant when someone said that multiple POV's were not a good idea. Gerald was traditionally published and has 2 POV's, the MC and the antagonist. I switched between them, chapter by chapter, until the final couple of chapters when the book was coming to a climax then I switched POV a couple of times within each of those chapters. As long as you are conscious of the head hopping problem then you should be fine

Harlequin said:

Just to be a pedant (sorry) but I do think you can tailor a MS to a market. Indies do it all the time--it's how they make their money, mostly.

Some things change and very fickle but certain elements are relatively consistent or long lasting.

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onesecondglance said:

I'd agree. It's entirely sensible to understand the market you're working in and know how your story meets that market's needs. That's not the same thing as chasing trends.

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Hence the "whims" . Obviously you have to know what the rules of your market are, so you can sneak past them without getting caught.

vhilal said:

26 POVs—that’s amazing. I would love to see how you got it all to come together!

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Not sure myself, but it somehow worked!

Actually, the format was a simple case of mixing short and long chapters and naming each with the POV character's name. But the key trick was making all the minor POV characters distinctive and relevant.

I am having the same problem. I have used flashback often and they have become a theme of the ms. but i am battling too many pov's. How do you get around that and what is "Close 3rd person"? I do not understand. How can you write in close third person without a POV. I would love to see an example so I know how to fix my writing problems.

A question and I am hoping that someone has an answer. If a character has a memory and we as the reader sees the memory is that considered a POV. I have used flashback throughout the story consistently and keep coming up with more and more POV characters. As long as the flashbacks are not dumps are they well liked, and helpful to the story.
For example, the antagonist suffers from major self-esteem issues which lead him to make terrible decisions. We see those decisions as a cause of his insecurities. the more i write this out the more I feel a dump in the flashback. But in this case, the antagonist if leaving Los Angeles and has a memory of the first time he visited L.A. His trip ended in desaster ending the engagement. The city brings back bad memories. Does this sound wrong and is it a POV?

shrimpsdad said:

I am having the same problem. I have used flashback often and they have become a theme of the ms. but i am battling too many pov's. How do you get around that and what is "Close 3rd person"? I do not understand. How can you write in close third person without a POV. I would love to see an example so I know how to fix my writing problems.

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Have you thiught about using a limited set of POVs for the current action, and another set (including, if necessary, some one-offs) for the flashbacks? IME it could work, depending on how distinct the flashbacks are from the main narrative.

I don't understand the question (genuinely). Third close person IS a pov? It's third person, closely following a character.

For limiting POV, you could simply leave a lot of stuff implied or unsaid. Not everything needs to be shown. Only what is truly necessary to move the plot along.

Hi Shrimpsdad, if you're still hazy about what POV is and the many ways to use it, it's probably best if you knuckle down and study the concept in writing books or good blogs. POV is probably the single most important decision you make for your story. Writing with one or two POV characters is challenging enough, and more just muddles things if you can't quite nail the concept. This has nothing to do with flashbacks, this is about the controlling consciousness of your scenes/ the book. Which character the reader is experiencing the story through. There are many nuances, so it's definitely not time wasted to pull back and study POV techniques, then apply them to your work.

Thank you. I understand the concept of POV but lose it when it comes to head hopping. I know not to head hop. I understand the POV of the main character and the main character of a subplot must exist, but how do I not bring in the POV of another character when even my editor is telling me that it has to happen. The editor believes that I need 5 POVs if not more but we are working to limit it to five. I really do understand the concept of a POV and may have misspoken and not clarified my question. I guess I should ask it like this. If I want to have a flashback from a character is it okay to show his feelings and is it considered a POV. Thank you for your help.

shrimpsdad said:

. If I want to have a flashback from a character is it okay to show his feelings and is it considered a POV. Thank you for your help.

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Sorry if I misunderstood, and maybe I'm still not quite getting it, but I'll try. A flashback is just a scene or bit of narrative that happens before the ongoing story. If the current scene is in character A's POV, and character A remembers something (flashback), there is no POV shift. There's a temporal shift. It's the same POV -- character A's. If the current scene is in character A's POV, and you flash back to a scene from the perspective of character B, you are shifting POV. That means the flashback has to be clearly separated from character A's scene or you're in danger of head-hopping and confusing the reader.

So you might have a structure like this:

POV of Character A (scene in ongoing story). Character A (flashback). Character A (back in ongoing story.)

[chapter change or line break]

POV of Character B either in the ongoing story or in a flashback.

[chapter change or line break]

POV of Character A // or Character C // or whatever. Just keep it one at a time or things can get muddled. The emotions of the POV character are always in their scene whether it's in the current story line or in the past.

Atlantic12 said:

Sorry if I misunderstood, and maybe I'm still not quite getting it, but I'll try. A flashback is just a scene or bit of narrative that happens before the ongoing story. If the current scene is in character A's POV, and character A remembers something (flashback), there is no POV shift. There's a temporal shift. It's the same POV -- character A's. If the current scene is in character A's POV, and you flash back to a scene from the perspective of character B, you are shifting POV. That means the flashback has to be clearly separated from character A's scene or you're in danger of head-hopping and confusing the reader.

So you might have a structure like this:

POV of Character A (scene in ongoing story). Character A (flashback). Character A (back in ongoing story.)

[chapter change or line break]

POV of Character B either in the ongoing story or in a flashback.

[chapter change or line break]

POV of Character A // or Character C // or whatever. Just keep it one at a time or things can get muddled. The emotions of the POV character are always in their scene whether it's in the current story line or in the past.

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Thank you that was very helpful. I understand. Truly thank you.

Head hopping is jumping from one character's POV to another, to another rapidly. When writing, you should give a decent amount of time on one character before seeing something from another POV. You can do a scene with one POV and next scene from another POV. The idea is to remain in one POV long enough to see it to its natural conclusion. But you should also focus more on the MC and the antagonist rather than the more minor characters. They may be very important to the story, but the reader will want more of it from the MC's POV. It is a balance, but if you find you are switching quickly you will need to really think, would this POV be just as good from the MC's perspective?

shrimpsdad said:

Does this sound wrong and is it a POV?

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It's not wrong. Whether it's necessary is another question. Only you can answer that.

The flashback derives from the POV character's memory, so it's all part of writing in that character's POV. You asked in another post how you can write close third-person without a POV. The answer is: you can't. "Close" (and it's sometimes also called deep POV) merely refers to how deep into the character's pysche the POV goes. It's not always necessary or desirable to delve that deep. But you might choose to do it in certain situations.

So my MC is off his own. Fleeing the city,
and ultimately the country after an apocalyptic terror attack strikes Los Angeles.

The US president uses the terror attacks to initiate the systematic deportation of millions of
undocumented Muslims, like a snowball gaining momentum it leads to the
deportation of everyone with darker skin than his. Think of the French
Revolution what started out as a guillotine for the tax collectors and lawyers turned
into the beheading of everyone.

The MC and the antagonist never come into contact with each other but the actions of the
president finally affect the MC, a Londoner born in the UK. He earned his US
citizenship 18 years earlier and renounced his UK citizenship. Now he is
stateless and pulling a Tom Hanks in, "Terminal". He is stuck at the airport a prisoner in London.

Unless I change the story entirely the two can never have contact with each other. So the need of
"close third person" is needed for both characters.



Without writing in 3rd person omniscient I am having trouble editing the other characters in the
ms. For example, the press secretary is abducted. We as the reader experience the
agony she goes through while held by her captors. She is with neither the
president nor the MC during this ordeal. So someone has to carry the scenes
during her captivity. That brings the total to three characters with tight POV.
But a protesting California Governor throws a wrench into the president's plans and we now
have four tight POVs.

The problem of separate stories not all hinged around one MC or even the president creates even more characters that
never come in contact with one another.

Does anyone know of a way to solve this problem?

I did receive one bit of information from a really creative member of AW but it only solves the
problem for half of the story.



The MC at the beginning of ACT II has a fall from nearly 20 yrs. of sobriety and his
miserable life is compounded with a drunk hit and run that resulted in the
death of a Muslim woman. No witnesses. The only thing standing between he and
freedom is his moral compass. The member of AW thought of a good idea to shift
the POV into the eyes of grieving Muslim family. They must deal with the death
of their mother, a terror attack which has many angry citizens wanting a head
on a stake, and the fact that there will never be justice for their mother's
death. There are so many incredibly intelligent minds on AW possibly someone
has a thought that might make sense of this mess.



Thank all of you
for your time and wisdom.

Hi shrimpsdad.

If you have already finished this you should give yourself a large pat on the back for actually having the grit and determination to actually finish what you started. That is quite an achievement in itself. You are now finding, as most of us do, that writing is a craft that has to be learned. A lot of the craft is probably already in there somewhere but just all messed up because the natural and perfectly understandable enthusiasm and desire to get our first story written has taken priority over learning/discovering techniques.

Sadly, for most of us, folk won't automatically read what we have written simply because we've written it.

Anyone can lob out 90,000 words or whatever. Only by practice and learning can we make sure that what we have written flows smoothly and with clarity from one sentence to the next. Proven techniques help us write in such a way that when folk have read our first sentence, they want to read our second sentence, then the third, and the fourth and so on for hundreds of pages.

You are already pretty close to the 50 post mark, which will enable you to post ,say, the opening 1500/2000 words of your novel in the appropriate Share-Your-Work Forum.

It's a lot easier for critters to pin down areas you might be able to improve upon, when they can see actual pages of your own writing.

Story structure is a completely different kettle of fish, but no matter how the story is structured the basic elements of the craft of narrating it to the reader remain the same.

That's one huge tale you have and although I've read about it a couple of times in more than one thread, I'm not sure I really follow who's story it is.

Anyway, look forward to having a peek at your actual writing in due course.

So far, you get full marks for enthusiasm and imagination.

There's plenty of How To ... books out there, but I hesitate to recommend any at this point.

You're treading a well worn path and I wish you well on your journey.

What a wonderful thing to say. Thank you for taking the time to express a pat on the back. Yes, you are right it was easy to lob 90K words onto 300 pages but now the tough part comes. How to make sense of it all. I have had a few editors read my manuscript, all thought it was pretty lousy. The story is good. Almost a coming of age thriller. The MC finds his way after years of wondering. He pays for his sins and takes responsibility. I have read so many thrillers and all genre really. I never noticed the little elements that made authors so great. I read everything so differently these days. Well, we will see if I can pull this off. If not it goes into the chest and I start a new one. This time I am going to follow a very strict outline with all of the problems vetted first. I really enjoyed the process though. I love it and fell in love. There is a limitless world at the tips of your fingertips. What a rush. You create and destroy with a few strokes. Thanks again for the encouragement. I really needed it.

Hi shrimpsdad

Reading your last post, I might be wrong but it sounds to me that the story is not about a MC, but about something happening and following the consequences of that event on a small number of people. I am thinking on the similar line of Naomi Alderman The Power. The main plot is what happens when women get the power to generate electricity with their body, and the story follows I think 4/5 women and a man and how this change affects them, their lives and the society around them. It's a multiple POVs and the POVs are switched with a chapter change.

Otherwise I agree with the others that putting some of your work for critique once you have enough posts will enable people to give you more relevant and specific feedback related to the writing, and how the POVs come across.