Girls' bodies/ clothes in middle-grade fiction

cornflake

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I think reading categories, like MPAA ratings, like most of the ratings on toys (save the 'choking hazard type age restrictions), are just guidelines meant to suggest the general age/developmental level/interest level of the thing. It's to help people understand the content, not a restriction, like, theoretically, movie ratings.

Adults watch G-rated movies; kids watch R-rated films. Kids who love to read, whose parents don't care what they read, often read very widely, including way up. I too read S. King at 10 and 11, and also read MG and YA stuff and other adult stuff. I read a bunch of categories as an adult. My parents could not have ever given half a damn about a movie rating.

However, I've known kids who are not really voracious readers, who are most interested in stories they relate to specifically -- who have to be tortured to read a school-assigned book or short story but love Junie B. Jones or really only like Harry Potter/Percy Jackson stuff in a very narrow wish fullfillment-type window, and who get freaked out and can't sleep if they see a 'scary' movie. It's guidelines so you know what to expect, that's all.
 

Jan74

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I think reading categories, like MPAA ratings, like most of the ratings on toys (save the 'choking hazard type age restrictions), are just guidelines meant to suggest the general age/developmental level/interest level of the thing. It's to help people understand the content, not a restriction, like, theoretically, movie ratings.

Adults watch G-rated movies; kids watch R-rated films. Kids who love to read, whose parents don't care what they read, often read very widely, including way up. I too read S. King at 10 and 11, and also read MG and YA stuff and other adult stuff. I read a bunch of categories as an adult. My parents could not have ever given half a damn about a movie rating.

However, I've known kids who are not really voracious readers, who are most interested in stories they relate to specifically -- who have to be tortured to read a school-assigned book or short story but love Junie B. Jones or really only like Harry Potter/Percy Jackson stuff in a very narrow wish fullfillment-type window, and who get freaked out and can't sleep if they see a 'scary' movie. It's guidelines so you know what to expect, that's all.

Yes it makes sense to have a rating and to sort and group books.....makes it much easier when browsing the bookstore or for kids in the library :) Like the old days of going to the movie rental places and they had movies categorized by new release, romantic, horror etc...made it easier to find what you were looking for. I'm definitely more rigid when it comes to kids and movies and what I'll allow them to view, but I'm super easy when it comes to reading. If you want to read The Shining that's great....if you want to watch it....well....I might say no.
 

Emissarius

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We had an alcove in our house that we called "the library" it was shelving filled with novels

Lucky you! Cause I've always been the only kid who reads in my house while my family watches Friends.

I'm thinking and trying to put myself in the shoes of a young girl coming from a culture where the women are hidden behind yards of fabric... I think it's a very interesting topic and I would imagine she may be very keen to take in all the details of the clothing around her.
One of the reasons #OwnVoices was born on Twitter :D

Maybe there is a girl who is highly sexualized because it makes sense for the story and other charactors who are not.
Yeah, my story only has one "bad" girl in it and I hope her being sexualized is convincing!
 

Jan74

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Lucky you! Cause I've always been the only kid who reads in my house while my family watches Friends.
Ha....well I did both, although I was an adult when friends came on air. It drives my family batty that I'll have a curling game on tv and my nose shoved in a book but I won't relinquish the tv because I'm "watching" it. :) I would have been just fine in the radio age! Reading has always been ingrained in us kids, my father would always take us to the library and we were surrounded by books. My sister had a huge box of paperbacks in her closet and I used to rifle through it, when she was out of the house that is. I was a book thief :) My boys unfortunately don't have the same love of reading that I do, but my daughter does. So one out of 3 aint bad.


One of the reasons #OwnVoices was born on Twitter :D


Yeah, my story only has one "bad" girl in it and I hope her being sexualized is convincing!

I love the "bad" girl. Sometimes I think people are so judgemental when it comes to kids and they impose their belief that the girl is being "sexual" when it's simply fashion she likes. I was a kid in the 70's and early 80's, our shorts were velvet and SUPER short and tight and tube tops were a thing with a tiny spaghetti strap, but nobody thought we were being sexual. It was just how kids dressed in the summer. Take a gander through 70's fashion and you'll see lot's of skimpy kids clothing....so I really don't see what all the fuss is about. :)

I grew up watching Degrassi junior high, the teens in the show were my age, so I could relate to Stephanie and her desire to wear skin tight hot pink pants, teased hair and gobs of eye shadow. It was nice to see a character on tv that I liked. Fashion and clothing are an outlet for kids to assert their individual personalities. Clothing, hair, and how a person looks in a kids world is very important. People/adults like to think it's not important....but it is. It is to those kids.

I'm willing to bet that "one" girl in your story is the girl that many girls will relate to. Digging into why she wears or does the things she does is the important part. Is she emulating her aunt/mother/neighbor etc, or is she wanting to attract the boys, does she steal copies of her sisters Vogue magazines and wants to look like the models in the pictures? It's the why that's important, and usually there is a why. If her friends aren't dressing that way then why is she?
 

neandermagnon

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I'm thinking and trying to put myself in the shoes of a young girl coming from a culture where the women are hidden behind yards of fabric. The clothing eliminates the shape of the woman underneath and then coming to another country where you can see a persons figure....all types of figures. How jaw dropping that would be. Would it scare me? Would it excite me? Would I want to wear the tank top with spaghetti straps or the baggy shirt? How does this young girl fit in her new world?

I lived and worked in Saudi Arabia for five years, working at a women only language school and was married to a Muslim (i.e. living with the local population not isolated in one of those western compound things).

Saudi women, and Saudis in general, are very familiar with western fashions and many wear them all the time (others were more traditional Arab styles of clothing that don't cover the whole body). The abaya (long outer cover, like a long dress) and headscarf are loose, very light clothing that's worn over the top of other clothing. At home, Saudi women wear whatever they want. To go out, they'll put an abaya and headscarf over the top, which they'll remove when they come back home, or when they go into a women only space. There are many women only spaces... entire shopping malls, universities, bank branches, schools (like the language school I worked at), beaches and all sorts. Little boys are allowed in women only spaces, up to around age 10 (the exact age will vary by establishment). Women don't cover up in front of men they're related to and homes have high outer walls so women can wear whatever they want at home and in their garden/courtyard.

Many Saudi women are into all the same hair and make-up and fashion things that you describe in your more recent post, and many little girls are too, and little girls don't have to wear the headscarf and abaya outside the house so there are lots of little girls wearing all kinds of fashion and pretty dresses, western and original, same as in the west. And there's quite a lot of American TV for adults and kids (dubbed into Arabic), so they see a lot of American fashions that way.

Plus abayas and headscarves themselves come in a wide variety of styles and are cut and designed to be very elegant. They're a fashion item too. Some little girls choose to wear abayas to look like their mothers, but that's up to them and their mothers.

I realise that you weren't talking about Saudi Arabia specifically, but I can't think of any country that has a more conservative dress code than Saudi. Other Muslim countries are like Saudi in that women wear whatever they want at home and in women only spaces, and just cover up in front of men they're not related to (which includes in public, generally, where men might be). The difference is they're less strict and you're more likely to see women who don't follow the covering up rules at all and just wear whatever they want, wherever.

IMO the culture shock won't be from seeing women in western fashions, but from seeing men and women interacting in the same places where women are dressed like that. Though from my own experiences and talking to loads of Saudi women (I taught English which included all kinds of student led discussions on topics of the student's choice) the Saudi women who don't agree with the dress code thing will lose the abaya and headscarf as soon as they step off Saudi soil and not experience any culture shock whatsoever. Saudis go to Bahrain and other nearby, less conservative countries to do all the things they're not allowed to do in Saudi. I lived in Bahrain for two years after living in Saudi, and every weekend and Saudi public holiday, Bahrain was full of Saudis (you can tell by a man's shmagh (Arab headdress) what country he's from, and you can tell by car number plates) doing things that are illegal in Saudi but legal in Bahrain. It's kind of hilarious in a way but totally understandable as Saudi has some really ridiculous rules. A classic is when you drive over the border between Saudi and Bahrain... (there's a bridge joining them and an island where all the border control is)... a car drives through customs and passport control, driven by the husband. As soon as they're officially on Bahrain soil, husband and wife change places and the wife drives the rest of the way. You see lots of people swapping seats in cars just after border control. (AFAIK women are now legally allowed to drive in Saudi, since they changed the law in the last couple of years, but it was illegal when I lived there. And there was a large, thriving business of private chauffeurs and taxi companies to drive women around. The language school I worked for employed 2-3 drivers just to drive the teachers and other staff to work and back.) Similarly, at the airport after a plane from Saudi lands, some women will lose the abaya and headscarf and be walking around Doha or Bahrain etc airport in skinny jeans and a cute top.

Note: some Saudi women will continue to wear their headscarf and abaya when not in Saudi out of personal religious conviction or personal preference. The bit above about not wearing the headscarf/abaya after leaving Saudi Arabia refers to those who don't agree with the dress code. My opinion is that women can wear what they want and cover up (or not) as much as they want and other people shouldn't tell women what they can/can't wear.
 
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Emissarius

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I lived and worked in Saudi Arabia for five years, working at a women only language school and was married to a Muslim (i.e. living with the local population not isolated in one of those western compound things).

Saudi women, and Saudis in general, are very familiar with western fashions and many wear them all the time (others were more traditional Arab styles of clothing that don't cover the whole body). The abaya (long outer cover, like a long dress) and headscarf are loose, very light clothing that's worn over the top of other clothing. At home, Saudi women wear whatever they want. To go out, they'll put an abaya and headscarf over the top, which they'll remove when they come back home, or when they go into a women only space. There are many women only spaces... entire shopping malls, universities, bank branches, schools (like the language school I worked at), beaches and all sorts. Little boys are allowed in women only spaces, up to around age 10 (the exact age will vary by establishment). Women don't cover up in front of men they're related to and homes have high outer walls so women can wear whatever they want at home and in their garden/courtyard.

Many Saudi women are into all the same hair and make-up and fashion things that you describe in your more recent post, and many little girls are too, and little girls don't have to wear the headscarf and abaya outside the house so there are lots of little girls wearing all kinds of fashion and pretty dresses, western and original, same as in the west. And there's quite a lot of American TV for adults and kids (dubbed into Arabic), so they see a lot of American fashions that way.

Plus abayas and headscarves themselves come in a wide variety of styles and are cut and designed to be very elegant. They're a fashion item too. Some little girls choose to wear abayas to look like their mothers, but that's up to them and their mothers.

I realise that you weren't talking about Saudi Arabia specifically, but I can't think of any country that has a more conservative dress code than Saudi. Other Muslim countries are like Saudi in that women wear whatever they want at home and in women only spaces, and just cover up in front of men they're not related to (which includes in public, generally, where men might be). The difference is they're less strict and you're more likely to see women who don't follow the covering up rules at all and just wear whatever they want, wherever.

IMO the culture shock won't be from seeing women in western fashions, but from seeing men and women interacting in the same places where women are dressed like that. Though from my own experiences and talking to loads of Saudi women (I taught English which included all kinds of student led discussions on topics of the student's choice) the Saudi women who don't agree with the dress code thing will lose the abaya and headscarf as soon as they step off Saudi soil and not experience any culture shock whatsoever. Saudis go to Bahrain and other nearby, less conservative countries to do all the things they're not allowed to do in Saudi. I lived in Bahrain for two years after living in Saudi, and every weekend and Saudi public holiday, Bahrain was full of Saudis (you can tell by a man's shmagh (Arab headdress) what country he's from, and you can tell by car number plates) doing things that are illegal in Saudi but legal in Bahrain. It's kind of hilarious in a way but totally understandable as Saudi has some really ridiculous rules. A classic is when you drive over the border between Saudi and Bahrain... (there's a bridge joining them and an island where all the border control is)... a car drives through customs and passport control, driven by the husband. As soon as they're officially on Bahrain soil, husband and wife change places and the wife drives the rest of the way. You see lots of people swapping seats in cars just after border control. (AFAIK women are now legally allowed to drive in Saudi, since they changed the law in the last couple of years, but it was illegal when I lived there. And there was a large, thriving business of private chauffeurs and taxi companies to drive women around. The language school I worked for employed 2-3 drivers just to drive the teachers and other staff to work and back.) Similarly, at the airport after a plane from Saudi lands, some women will lose the abaya and headscarf and be walking around Doha or Bahrain etc airport in skinny jeans and a cute top.

Note: some Saudi women will continue to wear their headscarf and abaya when not in Saudi out of personal religious conviction or personal preference. The bit above about not wearing the headscarf/abaya after leaving Saudi Arabia refers to those who don't agree with the dress code. My opinion is that women can wear what they want and cover up (or not) as much as they want and other people shouldn't tell women what they can/can't wear.

I believe girls wearing whatever they want at home or in girls-only spaces won't make it any less weird to be out in a culture where it's okay to dress like that in public. She might have seen revealing clothes on TV and worn them all the time in front of her sisters or female friends, but it's different with men and boys around. So she's bound to notice other girls' clothes, not because she hasn't seen them before, but because they're being worn in public in front of men. All this aside, my story takes place in a fictional setting with no technology or exposure to the outside world. I just started this thread to discuss girls clothes in MG in general so I didn't discuss my own setting too much :)