School Shooting in Parrkman, Florida

Brightdreamer

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It seems consensus is that arming teachers is a ridiculous idea. Is it meant to be some kind of distraction so we'll stop trying to ban assault rifles and make other substantive changes?

Throw in "keeping eyes off other ongoing fiascoes, disasters, and general shady doings and bugger-uppery in DC", and you got yourself a Bingo...
 

Roxxsmom

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You went to a cute school, heh.

I had my desk, with me in it, forcibly dragged into the hall and left there all day, in I think second grade, because I hadn't cleaned the papers out of it properly. The kid directly in front of me in fifth or sixth so enraged a teacher she got right in his face, raised her hand and whipped it to an inch of his head and said she'd 'put his head through the wall,' if he did whatever again (I think he was talking). For not paying attention I saw rulers snapped on people, within an inch of people, heavy things thrown, desks kicked... all just occupational hazard of being a kid. We thought nothing much of it except like 'oooh, you got in troooouuuble' kind of thing. No one shot up the joint, either, heh.

Teachers lost it sometimes when I was in school, and there were times when I didn't even blame them. I remember the time my 6th grade teacher yelled, "Goddammit, Jeff, sit down." because the kid in question was jumping up and down on his desk like a monkey.

I grew up in a very privileged town, and some of those kids really were spoiled brats who drove the teachers nuts. No shooters, though.

They still had "swats" when I was in middle school. Swats were dispensed via large, wooden paddles. They were used in the boy's PE classes. "Last guy around the track gets a swat," and so on. Most teachers didn't use them, but there were a couple who did, and the assistant principal did too. It was mostly boys who got them, and they'd compare notes about who they'd been swatted by.
 
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ShaunHorton

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"The delay never put us in a situation where any kids' lives were in danger, any teachers lives were in danger," Pustizzi said at a news conference Thursday afternoon.

Sorry, what? They were still searching the school when the shooter was long gone. While the authorities were searching the buildings, he could have gone to his car, gotten another gun and mowed down even more people while they were clustered together outside! Or gone somewhere else and started shooting there!

The delay put nobody else's lives in danger? Bullshit.
 
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Roxxsmom

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Four minutes might have made a huge difference in this shooting. The whole thing took, what, six minutes? Though if this deputy had nothing but a handgun and no protective gear, going in after someone armed with an assault rifle might well have been suicide.
 
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Jolly-Boo

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If you start going to such an extent as arming the teachers then there's no easy way to come back from that. You'll have probably created the most weaponized democratic society on this planet, all in the name of protecting an outdated relic of an amendment and appease people's complete asinine fear of a tyrannical government or in a lot of cases, a fear of a Muslim and/or Queen of England invasion.

I just read that Trump has proposed to ban a tool that helps increase the fire rate of a semi-automatic weapon, called bomb stocks. Didn't know such devices excited. And I honestly and naively didn't imagine such accessories would have even been allowed. I guess I underestimated people's need to "protect their home and their family."
 

cbenoi1

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And it turns out, as was predictable, the good guy with the gun didn't want to go in the building. Not enough practice drills I guess.
Too close to retirement. Or just not enough cat lives to spare.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/us/florida-school-shooting/index.html

Peterson resigned after he was suspended without pay by Israel pending an internal investigation into his actions during the shooting that left 17 people dead, Israel said. Peterson was eligible for retirement.

Then again, confusion and chaos can provoke bizarre behaviors.

-cb
 
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shakeysix

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My dad was a marine in the south pacific during ww2. He went from being a small town soda jerk to operating an amphibious tractor to land on some scary, bloody beaches. He did what he was supposed to do but never boasted. Neither did he believe guns were trophies. We always had guns but they were off limits unless Dad took them out. (Well, Mom took one out and loaded it once, because someone was trying to steal our boat in the middle of the night, but that is another story.) There were guns in every house in the neighborhood. Most of our neighbors were hunters and most were ww2 vets. Guns were things in those days, not trophies. The people who owned them did not have anything to prove about their bravery.

This man who is being called a coward should be left alone. The most important thing about guns that my brother, sister and I learned from our dad and grandfather(another ww2 vet) is that guns don't make a person brave. No one really knows how he will react with a gun in his hand and this means every time he picks one up. So much time is spent on drills in the military because the decision to shoot should be a reflex triggered by an order. If there is no order to fire the decision to react can become overwhelming. Don't be too quick to call anyone else a coward. You can never be sure how you will react in any dangerous situation. Native Americans said that those who froze in battle had decided that today was not a good day to fight.

It happens. People freeze. Dad taught us that people who bluster about their own balls and wave guns like trophies are those who are untested. They are trying to convince themselves that they will not freeze. Don't trust anyone but yourself in a crisis situation and forgive those who freeze. Bluster, shaming and gun waving belong to the insecure. --s6
 
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Larry M

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My dad was a marine in the south pacific during ww2. He went from being a small town soda jerk to operating an amphibious tractor to land on some scary, bloody beaches. He did what he was supposed to do but never boasted. Neither did he believe guns were trophies. We always had guns but they were off limits unless Dad took them out. (Well, Mom took one out and loaded it once, because someone was trying to steal our boat in the middle of the night, but that is another story.) There were guns in every house in the neighborhood. Most of our neighbors were hunters and most were ww2 vets. Guns were things in those days, not trophies. The people who owned them did not have anything to prove about their bravery.

This man who is being called a coward should be left alone. The most important thing about guns that my brother, sister and I learned from our dad and grandfather(another ww2 vet) is that guns don't make a person brave. No one really knows how he will react with a gun in his hand and this means every time he picks one up. So much time is spent on drills in the military because the decision to shoot should be a reflex triggered by an order. If there is no order to fire the decision to react can become overwhelming. Don't be too quick to call anyone else a coward. You can never be sure how you will react in any dangerous situation. Native Americans said that those who froze in battle had decided that today was not a good day to fight.

It happens. People freeze. Dad taught us that people who bluster about their own balls and wave guns like trophies are those who are untested. They are trying to convince themselves that they will not freeze. Don't trust anyone but yourself in a crisis situation and forgive those who freeze. Bluster, shaming and gun waving belong to the insecure. --s6

Well put.
 

Justobuddies

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Why not require every teenager to undergo mandatory military training? When everybody is a trained killer, there are no killers.

-cb

:foilhat: Of course, isn't this all just a ploy to create a Trump Youth program? :foilhat:

If you start going to such an extent as arming the teachers then there's no easy way to come back from that. You'll have probably created the most weaponized democratic society on this planet, all in the name of protecting an outdated relic of an amendment and appease people's complete asinine fear of a tyrannical government or in a lot of cases, a fear of a Muslim and/or Queen of England invasion.

Can we still call ourselves a democratic society? Seems the elections of G.W. Bush and Trump should have taught us better, considering they both lost the popular vote but are still "President". We really need to quit using that term IMO.
 

Lyv

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This morning, I have made a few calls asking companies to sever ties with the NRA (also hitting social media). On one, I knew I wasn't calling the right number, but figured the rep might be able to provide it or transfer me. I stated why I was calling. I didn't expect feedback, because it's political and the line is recorded, but the young man said, vehemently, "Good!" and when I thanked him said, "No, thank YOU!"
 

Tazlima

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My dad was a marine in the south pacific during ww2. He went from being a small town soda jerk to operating an amphibious tractor to land on some scary, bloody beaches. He did what he was supposed to do but never boasted. Neither did he believe guns were trophies. We always had guns but they were off limits unless Dad took them out. (Well, Mom took one out and loaded it once, because someone was trying to steal our boat in the middle of the night, but that is another story.) There were guns in every house in the neighborhood. Most of our neighbors were hunters and most were ww2 vets. Guns were things in those days, not trophies. The people who owned them did not have anything to prove about their bravery.

This man who is being called a coward should be left alone. The most important thing about guns that my brother, sister and I learned from our dad and grandfather(another ww2 vet) is that guns don't make a person brave. No one really knows how he will react with a gun in his hand and this means every time he picks one up. So much time is spent on drills in the military because the decision to shoot should be a reflex triggered by an order. If there is no order to fire the decision to react can become overwhelming. Don't be too quick to call anyone else a coward. You can never be sure how you will react in any dangerous situation. Native Americans said that those who froze in battle had decided that today was not a good day to fight.

It happens. People freeze. Dad taught us that people who bluster about their own balls and wave guns like trophies are those who are untested. They are trying to convince themselves that they will not freeze. Don't trust anyone but yourself in a crisis situation and forgive those who freeze. Bluster, shaming and gun waving belong to the insecure. --s6

All of this. It's easy to say you'll run toward the danger, but the gut-liquidating terror you feel actually looking down the barrel of a gun is, like so many experiences in life, impossible to truly convey to someone who hasn't experienced it themselves.

Frankly I'm impressed that he went in at all. This wasn't one of those spur-of-the-moment things like plucking a kid out of the path of a car, where you react before you have a chance to think about your own safety. He came to work that day expecting a peaceful day of same-old same-old: chatting with the kids between classes, busting someone for smoking in the bathroom, maybe, at worst, breaking up a fistfight.

Then his normal, peaceful day became a bloodbath, and HE was the person best equipped to stop it. He heard the shooting and had time to think about it, to recognize that if he went in there, there was a good chance he'd die. Self-preservation is a strooooong instinct to overcome, and he overcame it. His fear for his own safety was overridden by his desire to protect the children. I can't begrudge the man a few minutes to adjust his thinking and psych himself up for a situation he never really expected to encounter. Yes, kids died during those few minutes, and he'll have to live with that for the rest of his life, wondering if he could have stopped it if only he'd gone in sooner (and there's certainly no guarantee of that), but the poor guy's only human.
 
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ElaineA

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Of all the bullsh*t hypocrisy Trump has spewed over his 13 months in office, this accusation of cowardice toward a man who, in all likelihood was not truly trained or prepared for this eventuality, takes the cake.

This from a man who took HOW MANY deferments from his required service in the Armed Forces? After attending "military school"?

giphy.gif
 

BenPanced

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This morning, I have made a few calls asking companies to sever ties with the NRA (also hitting social media). On one, I knew I wasn't calling the right number, but figured the rep might be able to provide it or transfer me. I stated why I was calling. I didn't expect feedback, because it's political and the line is recorded, but the young man said, vehemently, "Good!" and when I thanked him said, "No, thank YOU!"

First National Bank of Omaha won't be renewing a contract for an NRA branded credit card and Enterprise Holdings, owner of such car rental arms as Enterprise and Alamo, will be ending their discount program for NRA members. Of course, people on Facebook are screaming pissed that such indignities are happening and First Amendment and blah blah blah woof woof. Oh, my God! I wish I had an account with First National Bank JUST SO I COULD CANCEL IT!
 

Scribhneoir

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On NPR this morning they were talking to a major Republican donor (sorry, can't remember his name offhand, though he was the finance director of the RNC at one time) who said he will no longer donate money to any candidate who doesn't cut ties with the NRA. He's also calling for a total ban on assault/assault-style rifles. First Republican I've heard take this stand and it's especially nice that it's someone with a hefty checkbook. He might actually get some Republican politicians to sit up and take notice.
 

cornflake

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All of this. It's easy to say you'll run toward the danger, but the gut-liquidating terror you feel actually looking down the barrel of a gun is, like so many experiences in life, impossible to truly convey to someone who hasn't experienced it themselves.

Frankly I'm impressed that he went in at all. This wasn't one of those spur-of-the-moment things like plucking a kid out of the path of a car, where you react before you have a chance to think about your own safety. He came to work that day expecting a peaceful day of same-old same-old: chatting with the kids between classes, busting someone for smoking in the bathroom, maybe, at worst, breaking up a fistfight.

Then his normal, peaceful day became a bloodbath, and HE was the person best equipped to stop it. He heard the shooting and had time to think about it, to recognize that if he went in there, there was a good chance he'd die. Self-preservation is a strooooong instinct to overcome, and he overcame it. His fear for his own safety was overridden by his desire to protect the children. I can't begrudge the man a few minutes to adjust his thinking and psych himself up for a situation he never really expected to encounter. Yes, kids died during those few minutes, and he'll have to live with that for the rest of his life, wondering if he could have stopped it if only he'd gone in sooner (and there's certainly no guarantee of that), but the poor guy's only human.

Also, unless I missed something -- I read one story about the guy which implied he heard it and stayed well out of it -- he mostly comes off to me as 'not stupid' not 'not brave.'

Unless he knew exactly what was happening, and where the shooter was at all times, he was unlikely as fuck to do anything but either cause more chaos or get shot himself.

If you don't know there is exactly one shooter (which is hard to tell with automatic [or automatic-sounding] gunfire) there's no reason to think that's the case. It could be another Columbine, or something else. Many shooters also come well-prepared, with multiple weapons, body armour, bombs of some sorts, etc., so then you, with your lone gun, who have no idea where even one roaming shooter possibly in head-to-toe armour touting grenades is, has a shot at what? Drawing fire? Good plan. If you don't know where he is, what's the plan, walk in to an active shooter situation the cops have been called to with a gun drawn? Good plan.

At the entrance, if you see him coming, toting a large weapon, stop him.

If you're wandering and hear gunfire and you're the only person in a large building with a gun supposed to defend it and you don't know the fuck is going on, who it is, where they are, what they have, or when the cops will get there and also find your armed ass wandering around? Don't go wandering around with a gun unless you're stupid.
 

shakeysix

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Yesterday morning Joe Scarborough said that Trump's meeting with the survivors seemed to have gone well and if he just held the line with what he had promised things might turn around for him. And then one of the panelists said "But tomorrow is the C-Pac and he is speaking. You know he's going to say something ..." And there was an all around groan. One thing you have to say--He might be unpredictable in his stands, but he is always predictably stupid and callous the next day.--s6
 

Criccieth

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If you start going to such an extent as arming the teachers then there's no easy way to come back from that. You'll have probably created the most weaponized democratic society on this planet, all in the name of protecting an outdated relic of an amendment and appease people's complete asinine fear of a tyrannical government or in a lot of cases, a fear of a Muslim and/or Queen of England invasion.

I don't know whether to :roll: or :cry: at that (not, I hasten to add, at you). Are there really and honestly Americans who think that either of those is a risk?

I mean, do they really think there's some sort of mass secret Muslim nation or Muslim army that are going to invade? :Shrug:

As for the Queen of England - she's 91!! She's not going to be charging over there and trying to bodily haul Trump out of the White House (more's the pity). And to be frank, there's no way the British Armed Forces could invade unless we'd bombed most of the country to hell and in that case, why would we want to? Oddly enough, most Brit are reasonably happy living in the UK and have no overwhelming desire to see the return of the Colonies!

That said, there's a fair few Brits who believe in the whole Muslim invasion thing as well....
 

ElaineA

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I don't know whether to :roll: or :cry: at that (not, I hasten to add, at you). Are there really and honestly Americans who think that either of those is a risk?

Some, but more who think our own government is the biggest boogey-man. I, however, would be fine if Ireland decided now was THEIR time. We have enough of us here already. I'll roll out a green welcome mat and everything! :Thumbs:
 

cornflake

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Trump said today at a presser with Turnbull in the WH that the problem with armed security guards is that they don't 'love the children.' So the answer is to arm the teachers, who do love the children, so they'll ... shoot them.

Logic, Trump style.

Does he think cops love everyone? I'm so confused.

I mean I THINK he "thinks" (using the term as loosely as possible) that the guard who was outside would have magically run inside the large building with his handgun against a person with an AR-15, who knows where, and magically James Bond-style taken him out with one bullet without getting hit by, I dunno, running through the heating ducts and dropping down at the exact right spot, if only he'd CARED. Teachers, however, care, so when they saw their own troubled, teenaged student come in with a gun, they'd have quickly risen up to shoot him in the head. That's it, right?
 

Lyv

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They've done a hell of a job deflecting the conversation away from gun control, haven't they?
They have, yet I am seeing more and more focus on the issues and actions they seek to divert attention from. I think you have to address the "arm all teachers" diversionary nonsense lest it actually get traction, but then pull it right back to issues and actions. I am actually encouraged by what I am seeing. Less sharing of the million (sigh) articles about arming teachers and more calls to action and actual results. It's hard work to keep that going, though.
 

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They've done a hell of a job deflecting the conversation away from gun control, haven't they?

I wouldn't say so. They've drawn a line in the sand, but the topic is still on everyone's lips.
 

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Another really bad thing about having armed guards in schools, the role is currently being filled by active duty police officers. And that causes this:

School to prison pipeline
The school-to-prison pipeline: an epidemic that is plaguing schools across the nation. Far too often, students are suspended, expelled or even arrested for minor offenses that leave visits to the principal’s office a thing of the past. Statistics reflect that these policies disproportionately target students of color and those with a history of abuse, neglect, poverty or learning disabilities.

And it's a twofur, supporting the private prison industry and the gun industry.

:(