The One Thing Trump Might Be Right About?

nighttimer

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Anyone who knows anything about me knows I have no regard for Donald Trump. Not as president. Not as a businessman. Not as a human being.

However, there may be one subject where Trump isn't totally full of what a cow pasture is.
An unlicensed illegal immigrant was “grossly impaired” when he crashed into an ambulance and killed a 3-year-old boy, court papers say.


The boy, from Wise, Va., died Monday, a day after the crash. He was with his mother in the ambulance when it was struck and rolled over in Winston-Salem, N.C. Lyndsay Ann Oakes, 27, suffered minor injuries. The boy was not identified.


Jose Duran Romero, 27, blew a 0.19 on a breathalyzer nearly two hours after the crash, more than twice the legal limit, FOX8 Winston-Salem reported late Monday.


Court papers say Romero, who was behind the wheel of a Honda Accord even though he had never owned a driver’s license, had “bloodshot, glassy eyes,” slurred his speech and looked “grossly impaired,” according to the station.


Romero was also in the country illegally, the station reported.


Federal authorities lodged an immigration detainer against him after his arrest. They said he was from El Salvador.


The ambulance was taking the boy and his mother to a trauma center.


Gary Oakes said Monday his grandson had been under medical care before the crash but didn't want to elaborate. Asked how the family was coping, Oakes said, "It's devastating."

This follows another recent drunk driver illegal alien accident which killed an NFL player
.

(CNN)Indianapolis Colts linebacker Edwin Jackson and another man were struck and killed in a suspected drunken driving accident early Sunday morning.

Indiana State Police say the man they believe hit them is an undocumented immigrant who has been deported twice.

The accident took place around 4 a.m. Sunday. Authorities said Jackson was the passenger for a ride-sharing operator, identified as 54-year-old Jeffrey Monroe of Avon, Indiana. Monroe had pulled his 2018 Lincoln to the side of Interstate 70 in Indianapolis because Jackson had become ill, according to state police, who said both men were standing outside the car.

The car and the men were struck by a Ford F-150. One of the men was thrown into the center lane and was spotted, along with wreckage from the damaged vehicle, by a passing state trooper. As he slowed to stop for the crash, he struck the body in the center lane, officials said.

Police identified the driver of the F-150 as Manuel Orrego-Savala. Police said he gave them an alias at the scene -- Alex Cabrera Gonsales -- and attempted to flee on foot. He was taken to the Marion County Jail, accused of driving without a license and on suspicion of intoxicated driving.

Detectives said Orrego-Savala is a citizen of Guatemala who is in the United States illegally and was deported twice, in 2007 and 2009. They're working with US immigration officials, who have placed a hold on Orrego-Savala.

US Immigration and Customs Enforcement released a statement late Monday saying Orrego-Savala was previously convicted of driving under the influence in Redwood City, California, in 2005. He has other "misdemeanor criminal convictions and arrests in California and Indiana," the ICE statement said.

As you probably guessed it didn't take long before the Racial-Arsonist-In-Chief to seize upon Jackson's death at the intoxicated hands of an illegal alien.

So disgraceful that a person illegally in our country killed @Colts linebacker Edwin Jackson. This is just one of many such preventable tragedies. We must get the Dems to get tough on the Border, and with illegal immigration, FAST!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) February 6, 2018

Which earned Trump a rebuke from the prosecutor's office.


(CNN)President Donald Trump was "ghoulish and inappropriate" in politicizing a fatal drunken driving crash involving an undocumented immigrant, the Indiana prosecutor overseeing the case said.

Marion County Prosecutor Terry Curry filed four felony charges Wednesday against Manuel Orrego-Savala, a Guatemalan citizen who had been deported from the US twice, for allegedly drunkenly operating a vehicle and killing NFL linebacker Edwin Jackson and Jeffrey Monroe in Indiana early Sunday morning.

In announcing those charges, Curry criticized Trump and others for focusing on Orrego-Savala's immigration status rather than the tragedy of two lost lives.

"We will vigorously prosecute this matter, just like any comparable crime, not because of the immigration status of an accused, but because two innocent men lost their lives in this horrible incident," Curry, a Democrat, said in a statement.

"We are disheartened that ghoulish and inappropriate public commentary has politicized this tragedy. Much of such commentary, including tweets by the President, fails to acknowledge that both Edwin Jackson and Jeffrey Monroe lost their lives on Sunday," he added. "We will simply seek justice on behalf of the families of those two victims."

It's obvious Trump cares nothing about Edwin Jackson other than the fact as an NFL player he has a higher profile than an ordinary citizen and exploiting the criminal acts of a few illegal immigrants as if it is a dire threat to the very lives of American citizens is straight from his well-thumbed xenophobia playbook.

That's not to say though there isn't a natural and instinctual disgust people have for drunk drivers killing innocents. Throw in the fact that Orrego-Savala and Romero shouldn't have been in the country at all, and its a reminder how Trump succeeds by appealing to emotion while progressives flail and fail by appealing to reason.

These stories resonate with the man and woman in the street in ways stories about the environment, racial grievance, gender equality and other weightier matter do not. It's why liberals win debates and conservatives win elections.
 

Roxxsmom

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These stories resonate with the man and woman in the street in ways stories about the environment, racial grievance, gender equality and other weightier matter do not. It's why liberals win debates and conservatives win elections.

The issues the liberals have gotten some traction on are emotional in nature too--the frustration of not being able to marry one's love, the horrors of facing deportation from the only country you've ever known, the terror Black Americans feel when confronted by police officers, and most recently, the #metoo movement, which taps into the collective frustration of women faced with sexual harassment and assault in their professions.

Pretty much every issue that matters to liberals has an emotional component. The question is how to get those emotions to resonate with more people. I'm guilty as any liberal of trying to appeal to logic and reason in arguments. It's how I was raised and trained professionally, and it feels like the moral high ground to me in many cases. There is a place for cold, hard facts and data. But there's a place for feelings too. The question is how to beat the Right at their own game there without falling prey to tactics that Colbert jokingly called "truthier."
 

blacbird

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I don't understand. What exactly is Trump right about? That some drunk drivers are immigrants? So? Surely quite a lot of drunk drivers aren't immigrants?

Ditto this. Deaths caused by drunk drivers are a huge problem in this nation, and the vast majority of those are caused by perfectly legal citizens.

caw
 
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Kaiser-Kun

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I have heard about people who are illegally in the US and developed an incredibly severe alcohol addiction. Their families BEG them to get sober because of the many risks they are taking, yet they choose to escape into the bottle. Apparently they are much more vulnerable to addiction because of the extreme culture shock an isolation that living in another country, away from your family and struggling to make ends meet brings.

I despise heavy drinking and I outright hate drunk drivers, that said.
 

mccardey

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I have heard about people who are illegally in the US and developed an incredibly severe alcohol addiction. Their families BEG them to get sober because of the many risks they are taking, yet they choose to escape into the bottle. Apparently they are much more vulnerable to addiction because of the extreme culture shock an isolation that living in another country, away from your family and struggling to make ends meet brings.

I despise heavy drinking and I outright hate drunk drivers, that said.
Well certainly if I was American, I'd take a lot of comfort in knowing that it's only people who entered the country illegally who drink to excess and drive while under the influence of alcohol. Why is this thread even here? Have I missed a sarcasm emoji or something?

ETA: OP, you're just taunting the non-USA lot. How long before one of us mentions oh-I-dunno sober and legal Americans and *those things that have bullets?*
 
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Ketzel

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I have heard about people who are illegally in the US and developed an incredibly severe alcohol addiction. Their families BEG them to get sober because of the many risks they are taking, yet they choose to escape into the bottle. Apparently they are much more vulnerable to addiction because of the extreme culture shock an isolation that living in another country, away from your family and struggling to make ends meet brings.
Cites, please. "I have heard" without verifiable facts is trumpy, not ACEH-y.
 

mccardey

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The child died, tragically, because the driver was "grossly impaired". Not because the driver was in the country illegally.
 

frimble3

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Why can't America strip legal citizen multi-conviction-drunk-drivers of their citizenship and dump them in Guatemala, too? That would free up space for decent, sober immigrants to become legal. (If Guatemala won't take them, fly them out over the ocean and they can try to swim home.) I have no sympathy for drunk drivers. But I fail to see any particular connection between drunk driving and illegal immigrants.
 
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Roxxsmom

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I think NT was trying to say that Trump is right that appealing to emotions like outrage, even when it's completely illogical, can win elections. As liberals, we're logically deconstructing the argument made about the illegal immigrant who was also a drunk driver. We know that there is little reason to believe that immigration status and driving under the influence are related, and we know that deporting all undocumented immigrants won't save Americans from drunk drivers who were born here. Meanwhile, a high percentage of Americans are writhing in collective outrage over this story because they don't care about our logical arguments.

Remember Willie Horton?

The left has tried outrage, though. There was outrage over Trump's pussy grabbing comments, for instance. There has been outrage over the income gap. There has been outrage over police shootings and about the sexual abuse of women.

There are also emotional messages that are more about empathy, about asking people to put themselves in the shoes of someone else who is being mistreated by the status quo.

The question I have is why Right Wing outrage is what it is these days, and why it seemed to appeal more to the working class white voters this time around, and why is the appeal to our better emotions--a desire for empathy and fairness--not as successful as the appeal to fear and resentment?
 
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Twick

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I'm appalled too - appalled that an apparently intelligent person would fall for Trump's blatantly racist propaganda.

In the Third Reich, Hitler's tame press happily spewed forth accounts of Jews and other foreigners who had offended against "good Germans." And people lapped it up. "Yes, these laws against the Jews sound unjust on the face of it. But did you read how a Jew stole something/assaulted someone/did some other horrible act? (Heavy sigh) If we could have removed them from the country, those crimes wouldn't have happened."

That people today don't see this as the grossest and most bigoted propaganda of hatred boggles my mind. I would have thought we were smarter and more sophisticated. Perhaps, yes, we'll have to start running ads about how red-hatted morons are driving drunk and killing people in even greater numbers, but I'm sure the morons who fall for Trump's ploy will have plenty of excuses. "He was drunk because the elites don't care about the little guy!"
 

Justobuddies

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So long as the media allows the lines between causation and correlation to be blurred in order to sell news (Yes, they're a business and therefore need ratings to generate ad revenue that's how the news works). We will have these sensationalized stories. In 2016 over 10,000 people were killed in accidents like those mentioned above https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving. I don't watch news 24 hours a day, but I know I didn't see any of them on national coverage. This is only making news BECAUSE those involved were illegal. It's flagrant misuse of the platform of 24 hour cable news to propagandize the America First agenda.

Just another politicizing tactic where facts are cherry picked to tell the story the big money wants to tell.

I use the term big money because the OPs sources are Fox News, owned by 21st Century Fox a $38 Billion company, and CNN, which is part of Turner Broadcasting, a subsidiary of Time Warner a $73 Billion enterprise. Guess who got a major windfall from the recent tax changes in the country?


Edited to add source.
 
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cbenoi1

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If Guatemala won't take them, fly them out over the ocean and they can try to swim home.
Let's toss 'em to the drink.

The question I have is why Right Wing outrage is what it is these days, and why it seemed to appeal more to the working class white voters this time around, and why is the appeal to our better emotions--a desire for empathy and fairness--not as successful as the appeal to fear and resentment?
Because it's easier to blame someone else when reality gets too complex to comprehend.

I guess that's what happens when advances in societies get faster than what the general populace can absorb; conservatism - essentially stomping on the brakes - becomes the dominant group think.

-cb
 

Roxxsmom

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That people today don't see this as the grossest and most bigoted propaganda of hatred boggles my mind. I would have thought we were smarter and more sophisticated. Perhaps, yes, we'll have to start running ads about how red-hatted morons are driving drunk and killing people in even greater numbers, but I'm sure the morons who fall for Trump's ploy will have plenty of excuses. "He was drunk because the elites don't care about the little guy!"

If the left tried this, it would probably backfire. It would be called out as a classist, elitist attack by a bunch of latte-sipping liberal hypocrites who don't know how hard it is in rural America. The left is uniquely vulnerable to this kind of attack, since economic justice is one of their things.

The Right doesn't have to worry about hypocrisy when they go after people of color, because the inherent worth and equality of people from all walks of life isn't one of their talking points.
 

mccardey

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I think NT was trying to say that Trump is right that appealing to emotions like outrage, even when it's completely illogical, can win elections.
Yes, I know because I know NT's posts from way back - but I don't see how it's useful to demonstrate-by-doing this sort of thing. It's just setting people up for a discussion under false pretenses. It never ends well. (Also, NT - and I know this isn't a crit thread ;) - I think you failed the out-tro. Using the words "That's not to say though" in your second last par suggests a degree of wriggle-room that I think undermines your point. Take those out and your argument becomes much more forceful: There is a natural and instinctual disgust people have for drunk drivers killing innocents. Throw in the fact that Orrego-Savala and Romero shouldn't have been in the country at all, and its a reminder how Trump succeeds by appealing to emotion while progressives flail and fail by appealing to reason...

It's a good point. It deserves a much better thread title.
 

nighttimer

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I think NT was trying to say that Trump is right that appealing to emotions like outrage, even when it's completely illogical, can win elections. As liberals, we're logically deconstructing the argument made about the illegal immigrant who was also a drunk driver. We know that there is little reason to believe that immigration status and driving under the influence are related, and we know that deporting all undocumented immigrants won't save Americans from drunk drivers who were born here. Meanwhile, a high percentage of Americans are writhing in collective outrage over this story because they don't care about our logical arguments.

Remember Willie Horton?

The left has tried outrage, though. There was outrage over Trump's pussy grabbing comments, for instance. There has been outrage over the income gap. There has been outrage over police shootings and about the sexual abuse of women.

There are also emotional messages that are more about empathy, about asking people to put themselves in the shoes of someone else who is being mistreated by the status quo.

The question I have is why Right Wing outrage is what it is these days, and why it seemed to appeal more to the working class white voters this time around, and why is the appeal to our better emotions--a desire for empathy and fairness--not as successful as the appeal to fear and resentment?

There's a Haki R. Madhubuti quote I've used before which answers this question. At least to my satisfaction, if not anyone else.

One of the great tragedies of modern education is that most people are not taught to think critically. The majority of the world’s people, those of the West included, are taught to believe rather than to think. It’s much easier to believe than to think. People seldom think seriously about that which we are taught to believe, because we are all creatures of imitation and habi
t
.

We can enjoy the foibles and failures of the Trump Misadministration, but what we whom oppose him to do not seem to understand is how Trump has tapped into something in the American psyche that is immune to appeals to logic and

I'm appalled too - appalled that an apparently intelligent person would fall for Trump's blatantly racist propaganda.

In the Third Reich, Hitler's tame press happily spewed forth accounts of Jews and other foreigners who had offended against "good Germans." And people lapped it up. "Yes, these laws against the Jews sound unjust on the face of it. But did you read how a Jew stole something/assaulted someone/did some other horrible act? (Heavy sigh) If we could have removed them from the country, those crimes wouldn't have happened."

That people today don't see this as the grossest and most bigoted propaganda of hatred boggles my mind. I would have thought we were smarter and more sophisticated. Perhaps, yes, we'll have to start running ads about how red-hatted morons are driving drunk and killing people in even greater numbers, but I'm sure the morons who fall for Trump's ploy will have plenty of excuses. "He was drunk because the elites don't care about the little guy!"

What you're saying isn't entirely wrong, Twick, but Trump won and he won with the support of the majority of White men and women. They weren't all "red hatted morons." They wanted a change and I'm not sure there's anything Trump can say or do to make them regret, reevaluate or repeat doing it all over again in 2020.

Yes, I know because I know NT's posts from way back - but I don't see how it's useful to demonstrate-by-doing this sort of thing. It's just setting people up for a discussion under false pretenses. It never ends well. (Also, NT - and I know this isn't a crit thread ;) - I think you failed the out-tro. Using the words "That's not to say though" in your second last par suggests a degree of wriggle-room that I think undermines your point. Take those out and your argument becomes much more forceful: There is a natural and instinctual disgust people have for drunk drivers killing innocents. Throw in the fact that Orrego-Savala and Romero shouldn't have been in the country at all, and its a reminder how Trump succeeds by appealing to emotion while progressives flail and fail by appealing to reason...

It's a good point. It deserves a much better thread title.

Respectfully, mccardey, I disagree. I think the title isn't just apropos. It's accurate in how these isolated incidents while tragic on an individual and personal level, are being skillfully manipulated to justify Trump's racist and xenophobic agenda. This may be bullshit but this is bullshit that works. It always has worked and when it doesn't its usually based on something about the messenger that disrupted the tactic from working as intended. The message itself is working fine.