Rape norms in entertainment

bombergirl69 · Feb 11, 2018

Yep. Looking at you, Poldark remake. **** SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE PBS SHOW****

Because my body just seems physically incapable of sleep these days, I have spent quality time in the wee hours catching up on series I missed, one being the remake of Poldark (yes, I remember the one from the 1970s but did not remember the plot) For those who haven't seen it, Captain poldark returns to England from the American colonies where he was fighting in the Revolutionary war, only to discover his father dead, his estate in total disarray and his beloved Elizabeth about to marry his creepy cousin.

Okay then. The story gallops along (lots and lots of galloping along gorgeous Cornish cliffs) Various hardships befall our hero (many, so many) but near the end of season 2, he breaks into the home of his former GF (now widowed, he is also, supposedly happily married to someone else) to "protest" her upcoming marriage to his arch rival. Then he grabs her and kisses her. She pushes him away and says NO. He grabs her again and again she pushes him away with a firm NO. "You wouldn't dare!" she says, to which he responds, "I would and so would you!" and throws her on the bed and climbs on top. Cue the sounds of two very happy people enjoying an intimate moment.

Wait--what? This is our hero? The guy who rescues the downtrodden, who tirelessly stands up for the working people, who makes speeches about how his honor is all he has and so on. And yet. Not to mention, in the first season, one of his workers marries a young woman who has an affair with the local doctor. Her husband winds up killing her, but is saved and protected by Captain Poldark.

I have to say, I was kind of dumbfounded. Yes, it 's based on books written in the 1940s and 1950s. I get that. But the more disturbing thing was the comments one reads - not really rape because in a minute or two, she started enjoying it!!! Not rape because she (really, down deep) wanted him too! And these comments are NOT from the 1950s! I find it very disturbing to see the whole rape thing played out like this is a neat woman's fantasy, but, my younger acquaintences tell me I am too old to understand (okay, fair enough). They tell me that he totally apologizes (to his wife) and that the issue is that this was a fantasy, and his wife is "real" and NOW he really, really, really gets that the real one is better!! Some things you just have to try before you realize they won't work.

Right, so this is 2018. People are trying to have discussions, some very uncomfortable about dating and sex schemas. Things we always took as the norm are perhaps(one hopes) evolving into something better (again one hopes!) But it sure gets a lot harder with this in the background, with people watching this and having every "see? Women like to be overpowered and taken against their will" fantasy validated.

And the thing is, our hero is other wise likable. If the villain did this, I don't doubt people would say he raped her. But not our hero. Because it's him, the explanations abound--he'd just lost his daughter! Their love had never had a resolution! Their attraction was too powerful to resist! He said (to his wife, not the GF) that he was sorry and he doesn't do it again! Just as #Metoo gets blamed for "going to far" when it turns out a "nice" guy behaved badly. Oh, no! Not HIM!!

The show otherwise is great and the actors are terrific. No argument there. But romanticizing this behavior, I think, it seriously problematic.

Or, maybe I am just too old to get it!

Marissa D · Feb 11, 2018

No, you're not (or maybe I am too...)

I'm watching the children's publishing world explode with #metoo today. The world doesn't need "fantasy" like what you described.

Roxxsmom · Feb 11, 2018

bombergirl69 said:
The show otherwise is great and the actors are terrific. No argument there. But romanticizing this behavior, I think, it seriously problematic.

Or, maybe I am just too old to get it!

I don't think age has anything to do with it. Or if it did, one would expect older people--the ones who came of age before "date rape" and "no means no" were catchphrases on campuses across America, people who were kids when "Baby It's Cold Outside" was a hit single--would be the ones saying it isn't rape.

Young people, in particular, should know better.

I think this kind of thing is still really common in romance arcs and so on. Her lips are saying no, but her eyes are saying yes and all that crap. Deep down inside she really wants him, and our intrepid hero knows her so well, or is such an amazing mind reader, that he knows the truth. Because he's a sympathetic character, and we're spending time inside his head (or seeing scenes from his perspective) we can't think of him as a rapist, because he's not doing it to hurt and humiliate, but because he cares for her and wants to give her what she really wants.

Or maybe, if the rape is a sort of punishment, she simply pushed a "nice guy" too far, or asked for it with her behavior.

The problem is, it does send a bad message to all the other guys out there who think they know a woman better than she knows herself, or that he can read her subtle tells accurately. It also sends a bad message to any victim who worries that she may have sent the guy who forced her the wrong signals.

Added to the complexity is that some people really do have fantasies about forceful or strong seductions. Fantasies aren't right or wrong, they simply are, but if people who don't understand that something is supposed to be a game see the scenario playing out in media that isn't intended to cater specifically to those fantasies, it also creates problems.

Marissa D · Feb 11, 2018

Roxxsmom said:
Added to the complexity is that some people really do have fantasies about forceful or strong seductions. Fantasies aren't right or wrong, they simply are, but if people who don't understand that something is supposed to be a game see the scenario playing out in media that isn't intended to cater specifically to those fantasies, it also creates problems.

Speaking of this, there was an interesting piece in the New York Times this weekend about teens and pr0n, and how the easy access to online pr0n is altering how they approach sex and relationships in their lives.

regdog · Feb 12, 2018

One of the biggest reasons I stopped watching Game of Thrones after a few seasons and only watched edited clips of last year. I was sick and tired of the weekly rape scene.

Bufty · Feb 12, 2018

You're not too old, bombergirl.

I remember that scene in Poldark. "What the...?" "No", "No", what are you doing, you idiot.

Almost stopped watching it after that, because I thought it was totally stupid, out-of-character behaviour, not to mention the ridiculous explanation he gave to his wife.

lizmonster · Feb 12, 2018

regdog said:
One of the biggest reasons I stopped watching Game of Thrones after a few seasons and only watched edited clips of last year. I was sick and tired of the weekly rape scene.

You are not alone.

I will say they've done a LOT of work empowering the female characters, and I really do think a lot of it is due to the criticism of what's otherwise a well-crafted show. But because of the established worldbuilding, the threat of rape is still a constant subtext. I've watched episodes now and then with Spouse, along with scenes he thinks are particularly cool, but there's still too much of the "well, it's MEDIEVAL so this is REALISTIC" excuse. Of which I am so, so tired.

Too bad. It is well-written and well-acted, for the most part.

bombergirl69 · Feb 12, 2018

Never seen GOT and not interested in rape as entertainment.
The things that bother me are first, that rape is portrayed as okay. It's never referred to as such, so the very clear message is, "it's FINE! She really does want this so go ahead and overpower her!" Given this, it very much appears that the script writer, Debbie someone, has no idea this is rape and apparently finds it "racy" to assault women.

Second, the rapist is a "good guy" so whatever he does is fine, and not only in the script but in the comments. The commenters offer all sorts of excuses why what he does is fine. This particularly bothers me in light of Aziz Ansari (and likely a host of others) who do things that are NOT fine, but are excused because they are "good guys" (the andrea peyser article comes to mind.)

It's disturbing because normalizing/justifying/accepting the rape fantasy as fun and thrilling and/or "just part of life!" is, IMO, crazy. If the comments(or script) were from the 1950s, I'd probably shrug and hope we've come farther than that. But it is not. Neither are the comments.

Not to mention, we are made to see that women cheating is a Bad Thing. Very Bad. It makes you a Bad Woman. In fact, if your husband happens to kill you for it, well, it was likely an accident and again, you were cheating so you kind of had it coming! When our hero cheats, not only is there no question of killing him, but the script really pulls for forgiveness--she was his idealized love and after screwing her all night, he sees that and really really loves his wife! This is not a perfect marriage and in real marriages people work things like this out, he is a flawed character but a good one, so, you know, his straying is not that big a deal. So, women straying--- > BAD! Men straying --- > they were suffering! Real marriages endure! That was quite likely the prevailing view point at the time, but the script seems to have no awareness of the double standard. No discussions of the differences between our cheating hero and the cheating woman who gets killed.

In a favorite book of mine, Here be Dragons, the MC (in early Wales) has mistresses. That's accepted. Then his wife has a short affair. Definitely not accepted. The MC kills her lover and is contemplating killing her, but winds up forgiving her. The book makes clear this is a double standard (ok for men, not okay for women) so you get this behavior is not actually endorsed by the author (plenty of interesting discussions about it)

Yeah, I guess I can see it when people (men) say I'M CONFUSED. With crap* like this, I get it I would be too.

*and by crap, again I mean the script. The actors really are terrific and Cornwall performs magnificently! There is also a lovely horse and adorable dog, so, there's that... The hero actually saves the dog, so a dog saving, champion of the people rapist... Okay then.

bombergirl69 · Feb 12, 2018

Bufty said:
Almost stopped watching it after that, because I thought it was totally stupid, out-of-character behaviour, not to mention the ridiculous explanation he gave to his wife.

TOTALLY out of character! And you know if Warleggan had done it, everyone would be RAPE!!!! and what he tells his wife...<insert massive eye rolling here>

I'm probably

but it really bothered me!!!

Roxxsmom · Feb 12, 2018

Marissa D said:
Speaking of this, there was an interesting piece in the New York Times this weekend about teens and pr0n, and how the easy access to online pr0n is altering how they approach sex and relationships in their lives.

Interesting, though I thought today's teens weren't having sex as much. The internet and electronic devices have been blamed for that too, though I suspect changes in driving laws have had an effect as well.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-having-much-less-sex/?utm_term=.3f34989a173f

The more structured, protected life today's teens have lived since they were little (off the internet, at least) is also a possible explanation.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/parenting/ct-teens-not-drinking-20170919-story.html

There are definitely issues with too much screen time too young, even without the issues of problematic content. With all the data emerging about video games and cell phones etc. being as addictive as crack, I wonder if they will eventually become age-restricted?

bombergirl69 said:
Not to mention, we are made to see that women cheating is a Bad Thing. Very Bad. It makes you a Bad Woman. In fact, if your husband happens to kill you for it, well, it was likely an accident and again, you were cheating so you kind of had it coming! When our hero cheats, not only is there no question of killing him, but the script really pulls for forgiveness--she was his idealized love and after screwing her all night, he sees that and really really loves his wife! This is not a perfect marriage and in real marriages people work things like this out, he is a flawed character but a good one, so, you know, his straying is not that big a deal. So, women straying--- > BAD! Men straying --- > they were suffering! Real marriages endure! That was quite likely the prevailing view point at the time, but the script seems to have no awareness of the double standard. No discussions of the differences between our cheating hero and the cheating woman who gets killed.

This attitude makes me absolutely crazy. I've been railing against it since I was a teen, and I've always been told I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, or I just don't get it, or that this whole dichotomy exists for a reason because something, something, evolution (usually by people who have studied the latter far less than I have).

I think the sexual double standard plays a huge role in what is now termed rape culture.

Rape norms in entertainment

bombergirl69

Marissa D

Scribe of the girls in the basement

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Marissa D

Scribe of the girls in the basement

regdog

The Scavengers

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

bombergirl69

bombergirl69

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido