Actresses and their evolution

Laer Carroll

Aerospace engineer turned writer
Super Member
Registered
Temp Ban
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
2,481
Reaction score
271
Location
Los Angeles
Website
LaerCarroll.com
The roles actresses are cast for reflect the social milieu the movies are marketed to. That milieu has been slowly changing in the Western world ever since movies have been made.

The first black and white silent films, it seems to me, often showed them as damsels in distress. The advent of talkies let women speak, and some of them were made to speak very wittily. Usually in an upper-class or British accent. My first film crush as a boy was Katherine Hepburn because she was smart and sophisticated as well as hot.

In the 50s women were allowed to be sexual but only as whores with a heart of gold. In the 60s about the only women who sought sex were naïve flower children, forgiven for doing so only because they were dummies who didn't know better.

The trend that I like most is for more heroes and superheroes. Likely because I grew up reading Westerns which usually had strong women who could handle a Winchester and a frying pan with equal aplomb.

In the 70s I got Leia and Ripley. They didn't need huge muscles, cause they had blasters and flamethrowers. As Colt's ads for Peacemakers said, "It doesn't matter your strength or size, just call on us we'll equalize."

In the 80s and 90s my heroes were Sarah Connor (weapon of choice: AK-47) and La Femme Nikita (weapon of choice: scoped rifle and silenced pistol).

The first decade of the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century saw more heroes and superheroes. This included Charlie's Angels, a three-woman team who could kick butt and sneak as well as any James Bond. I also enjoyed Angelina Jolie as the Tomb Raider and as other heroines in movies which were big earners. I was made unhappy, though, by superhero misfires such as Catwoman and Electra. Then came the various X-men movies, with almost too many characters both women and men, all with superpowers.

An enduring hero is Lisbeth Salander. Ferocious and armed with superhacker skills, all the muscle-bound and billionaire bullies in the world with half a brain would quail and slink away rather than arouse her ire.

The second decade had more powerful women as leads. Most influential I believe was The Hunger Games series with Katniss Everdeen as the hero. I also think the Harry Potter series had a big influence. Harry is nominally the lead, but smart and plucky Hermione Granger stole every scene she was in. Then came the Wonder Woman film which proved that not only women leads but women directors could make big money.

What's coming up with women heroes and superheroes? Another Tomb Raider movie with Alicia Vikander as the lead. Red Sparrow with Jennifer Lawrence as the lead, an assassin who wants out a la Le Femme Nikita. More X-Men stuff. Then Alison Brie in Captain Marvel, an already tough fighter pilot amped up by a transfusion of Kree blood.
________________________________________________

That's my highly personal view of the trends in female roles, highly influenced by my teenboy enthusiasms. What do YOU think of what has happened recently in female roles and where those roles are going?
 
Last edited:

HD Simplicityy

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 1, 2018
Messages
161
Reaction score
5
Location
Happy Valley, Oregon
I think some of the most recent female roles have been amazing. Jennifer Lawrence was perfection in The Hunger Games. That's where I got to first watch her, and where she become one of my favorite actresses. But her recent stuff? She's in films that flaunt her body more than her acting, which I don't like.

Gal Gadot is a fantastic choice for Wonder Woman. I've never read a single superhero comic, and I'm a 25 year old guy - most men that age or older love comics I think. But watching her perform as Diana was lots of fun.

Although she's getting a lot of criticism for her character being a Mary Sue (which I nearly entirely disagree with), Daisy Ridley has been superb as Rey in the Star Wars sequel trilogy. From someone with barely any acting experience, to being in one of the biggest, most famous and most enduring popular culture phenomenons of all time, Daisy has seriously grown as an actress. Especially in The Last Jedi, despite what fans say. I'm excited to follow her as a fan. Also, she's absolutely beautiful, has a great personality, and is intelligence...though I might not agree with all her opinions. Same with Jennifer.

And you have Emma Watson <3 <3. Absolute perfection as Hermione.

I'm excited for Alicia Vikander in Tomb Raider; she looks so good. The film itself seems alright.

Female roles have been amazing in recent history. What I don't like are those roles that still feature women being a sexual object by a male character, like classical Hollywood era stuff.
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
The roles actresses are cast for reflect the social milieu the movies are marketed to. That milieu has been slowly changing in the Western world ever since movies have been made.

The first black and white silent films, it seems to me, often showed them as damsels in distress. The advent of talkies let women speak, and some of them were made to speak very wittily. Usually in an upper-class or British accent. My first film crush as a boy was Katherine Hepburn because she was smart and sophisticated as well as hot.

In the 50s women were allowed to be sexual but only as whores with a heart of gold. In the 60s about the only women who sought sex were naïve flower children, forgiven for doing so only because they were dummies who didn't know better.

The trend that I like most is for more heroes and superheroes. Likely because I grew up reading Westerns which usually had strong women who could handle a Winchester and a frying pan with equal aplomb.

In the 70s I got Leia and Ripley. They didn't need huge muscles, cause they had blasters and flamethrowers. As Colt's ads for Peacemakers said, "It doesn't matter your strength or size, just call on us we'll equalize."

In the 80s and 90s my heroes were Sarah Connor (weapon of choice: AK-47) and La Femme Nikita (weapon of choice: scoped rifle and silenced pistol).

The first decade of the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century saw more heroes and superheroes. This included Charlie's Angels, a three-woman team who could kick butt and sneak as well as any James Bond. I also enjoyed Angelina Jolie as the Tomb Raider and as other heroines in movies which were big earners. I was made unhappy, though, by superhero misfires such as Catwoman and Electra. Then came the various X-men movies, with almost too many characters both women and men, all with superpowers.

An enduring hero is Lisbeth Salander. Ferocious and armed with superhacker skills, all the muscle-bound and billionaire bullies in the world with half a brain would quail and slink away rather than arouse her ire.

The second decade had more powerful women as leads. Most influential I believe was The Hunger Games series with Katniss Everdeen as the hero. I also think the Harry Potter series had a big influence. Harry is nominally the lead, but smart and plucky Hermione Granger stole every scene she was in. Then came the Wonder Woman film which proved that not only women leads but women directors could make big money.

What's coming up with women heroes and superheroes? Another Tomb Raider movie with Alicia Vikander as the lead. Red Sparrow with Jennifer Lawrence as the lead, an assassin who wants out a la Le Femme Nikita. More X-Men stuff. Then Alison Brie in Captain Marvel, an already tough fighter pilot amped up by a transfusion of Kree blood.
________________________________________________

That's my highly personal view of the trends in female roles, highly influenced by my teenboy enthusiasms. What do YOU think of what has happened recently in female roles and where those roles are going?

This doesn't seem to be about the evolution of actors at all, so much as there are more roles in which women appear scantily clad and yet also fight, in films?

I think we have verrry different definitions of hero.

I do think roles have expanded sort of recently, and actors are getting some meatier parts, but it's nearly all the doing of their own force of will and leverage of power often gained by doing more 'traditional' roles -- see Reese Witherspoon.

Aren't female superheroes just add-ons to other stuff, like X-Men the vast majority of the time? The ratio of female superhero movies to male can't be good.
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,699
Reaction score
24,638
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
Aren't female superheroes just add-ons to other stuff, like X-Men the vast majority of the time? The ratio of female superhero movies to male can't be good.

Yeah.

I think things have improved recently, but the last 20 years or so, maybe longer, have been awful for women in movies. When "Alien" is still the benchmark for a female major character, there's a problem.

I did finally see "Wonder Woman," and although it was imperfect, it did so much right. Most of what was wonderful about it was the things that weren't included. I also thought some of the touches in "Thor: Ragnarok" were notable, in particular the crowd scene toward the end where hundreds of people were going to be killed, and they knew it, and the women were standing and fighting on the front lines along with the men, without anybody saying "No, honey, you go back and be safe while I die my manly death for you."

Contrast with "Altered Carbon," which lost me after about 10 minutes.
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
Yeah.

I think things have improved recently, but the last 20 years or so, maybe longer, have been awful for women in movies. When "Alien" is still the benchmark for a female major character, there's a problem.

I did finally see "Wonder Woman," and although it was imperfect, it did so much right. Most of what was wonderful about it was the things that weren't included. I also thought some of the touches in "Thor: Ragnarok" were notable, in particular the crowd scene toward the end where hundreds of people were going to be killed, and they knew it, and the women were standing and fighting on the front lines along with the men, without anybody saying "No, honey, you go back and be safe while I die my manly death for you."

Contrast with "Altered Carbon," which lost me after about 10 minutes.

That was f'ing terrible -- I tried twice, still haven't gotten through the first episode.

This is so oddly focusing on such a subset of roles and ignoring others -- like G.I. Jane -- that do show physically powerful women as a reality (though that was like 20 years ago too, I think, but it's a better vision of a hero than fucking Charlie's Angels, imo). However, same as movies with male leads, being able to do pushups and beat someone up is hardly the epitome of power.
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,699
Reaction score
24,638
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
That was f'ing terrible -- I tried twice, still haven't gotten through the first episode.

I so wanted to like it. SF on TV, yay! But I felt like it went out of its way to fail on every level in its portrayal of women. It's hard for SF to lose me so fast - it's a genre where I'll give a production a LOT of second chances - but AC managed it.
 

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
4,197
Reaction score
1,049
Location
Los Angeles
I so wanted to like it. SF on TV, yay! But I felt like it went out of its way to fail on every level in its portrayal of women. It's hard for SF to lose me so fast - it's a genre where I'll give a production a LOT of second chances - but AC managed it.

Ok, so it wasn't just me then.
 

Laer Carroll

Aerospace engineer turned writer
Super Member
Registered
Temp Ban
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
2,481
Reaction score
271
Location
Los Angeles
Website
LaerCarroll.com
The wannabe-blockbuster action-adventure movies are just the most obvious sign of the changes in women's roles, toward more emphasis on character and real-life challenges and less on looks and likeability - on conventional femininity.

Perhaps the champion for me is Hidden Figures, about the early years of the space race. It centers around three women who face not only sexual but racial discrimination.

Some of Jessica Chastain's movies come to mind, such as Zero Dark Thirty, Miss Sloane, and Molly's Game.

So do some of Jennifer Lawrence's smaller movies, including Winter's Bone which first brought her to wider Hollywood attention, Silver Linings Playbook which got her an Oscar, and Joy where a woman had to struggle to express her individuality and support a family.

Most obvious is the entire slate of lead and supporting actress nominations for Oscars 2018. Every one of the actresses is an unconventional choice for a lead role, and faces widely varying challenges.
 
Last edited:

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
The wannabe-blockbuster action-adventure movies are just the most obvious sign of the changes in women's roles, toward more emphasis on character and real-life challenges and less on looks and likeability - on conventional femininity.

All like, two of them? I don't think there's been that kind of change. Katherine Hepburn had tons of roles better than most women are offered today, so did a lot of actors from the '50s and '60s. The pay disparity, the nudity disparity (which wasn't really a thing back when), has made it worse, considering the era.


Perhaps the champion for me is Hidden Figures, about the early years of the space race. It centers around three women who face not only sexual but racial discrimination.

Yeah, but it's a biopic, basically.

Some of Jessica Chastain's movies come to mind, such as Zero Dark Thirty, Miss Sloane, and Molly's Game.

Yeah, Chastain gets, or more likely, takes, decent roles, but see above Hepburn, and Bette Davis, Diane Keaton, Streep, etc.

So do some of Jennifer Lawrence's smaller movies, including Winter's Bone which first brought her to wider Hollywood attention, Silver Linings Playbook which got her an Oscar, and Joy where a woman had to struggle to express her individuality and support a family.

I thought Winter's Bone was a good movie. Silver Linings I couldn't stand and Joy I think is so bad I can't believe it was released. However, are ANY of those anything close to some of the roles the above have had?

Most obvious is the entire slate of lead and supporting actress nominations for Oscars 2018. Every one of the actresses is an unconventional choice for a lead role, and faces widely varying challenges.

I'm not sure to what category you're referring, as you've got supporting and then lead but in either category, most seem pretty obvious choices to me -- Streep, Margot Robbie, McDormand , Saorsie Ronan? I'll give you Sally Hawkins, though she's certainly paid her dues, but she's not as famous and lauded as the rest. In supporting, Laurie Metcalf. Allison Janney, and Manville actors of serious reputation, who have shelves of awards, Octavia Spencer has an Oscar... I don't know how really well-known, heralded, multi-award-winning actors are unconventional choices. They've been getting these roles for ages.
 

Frankie007

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 22, 2016
Messages
696
Reaction score
110
Gina Davis in The Long Kiss Goodnight was absolutely awesome to me.
Jessica Alba in Dark Angel.
Gal in WW.

and I'm definitely checking out the new Tomb Raider!
 

Laer Carroll

Aerospace engineer turned writer
Super Member
Registered
Temp Ban
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
2,481
Reaction score
271
Location
Los Angeles
Website
LaerCarroll.com
...most [actress noms] seem pretty obvious choices to me...

The thing that struck me is not the specific actresses. It's the ROLES they were picked for - the topic I introduced in the original post. Those varied widely, an increasing trend I'm happy to see.

In the past too often women were just romantic prizes for men. Or sidekicks to men. Or a convenient tertiary character useful only to listen to men emote, or explain, or provide a convenient cock-pocket for the night before he went on to save the world or heist a bank or win an election.

The wide variety of the actresses is another happy trend for me. Their ages go from teens to 50+ and though attractive only one or two are super-gorgeous.

Maybe someday we'll have more of what one actress recently said she wanted - to play a female Darth Vader. Or (since Vader is a hero albeit flawed one) more fems who are purely evil with no redeeming qualities. Only when women can have ANY role will they have true equality.