Knight in shining armor trope

blackcat777

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Today's trope I want to pick apart: knight in shining armor! When do you like it? When don't you like it? Favorite examples of good and bad execution? Pitfalls? Ways in which this trope has been overplayed? I'm interested in perspectives from romance, fantasy, and anything in between to jog my creative process.

One thing I'm wondering is: at what point does the trope become off-putting if said knight tries too hard for a lady and seems whipped? I don't want to play it so he's whipped. Argh, chivalry.

My character in question is an unruly badass (zero traditional white knight values at all), BUT he won't hit a girl Because Mom. I want to preserve his unruliness.
 

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Today's trope I want to pick apart: knight in shining armor! When do you like it? When don't you like it? Favorite examples of good and bad execution? Pitfalls? Ways in which this trope has been overplayed? I'm interested in perspectives from romance, fantasy, and anything in between to jog my creative process.

One thing I'm wondering is: at what point does the trope become off-putting if said knight tries too hard for a lady and seems whipped? I don't want to play it so he's whipped. Argh, chivalry.

My character in question is an unruly badass (zero traditional white knight values at all), BUT he won't hit a girl Because Mom. I want to preserve his unruliness.

Not sure what you mean by "whipped."

Badass characters can still respect others, including others the opposite gender, imo. Standing up for oneself and being skilled at what one does and being proactive at solving problems doesn't necessitate abuse of those physically weaker than oneself (or of anyone, for that matter).

I tend to prefer stories where the FMC can take care of herself in most situations, and any rescuing that is done can go both ways. Don't care much for damsels in distress, unless there's a good reason for her to be in a situation where she needs help. I don't think behaving like a decent human being is necessarily "chivalry." I think of chivalry as a stricter code of conduct that includes ritualized behaviors in the context of a strict class structure.

I tend to prefer fantasy that doesn't take place in a strictly medieval "knights and castles" type setting these days, though there are always exceptions if the characters are interesting.
 
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JoB42

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Today's trope I want to pick apart: knight in shining armor! When do you like it? When don't you like it? Favorite examples of good and bad execution? Pitfalls? Ways in which this trope has been overplayed? I'm interested in perspectives from romance, fantasy, and anything in between to jog my creative process.

One thing I'm wondering is: at what point does the trope become off-putting if said knight tries too hard for a lady and seems whipped? I don't want to play it so he's whipped. Argh, chivalry.

My character in question is an unruly badass (zero traditional white knight values at all), BUT he won't hit a girl Because Mom. I want to preserve his unruliness.

This is a pretty big question, and I don't think I can give a full answer. I imagine a book could be written on this topic and still there would be room for more commentary.

First, I think of it as an archetype. The knight in shining armor is about as close to the ideal man as humans can get without intruding into the realm of the deific. One could argue, for instance, that Christ is the ultimate ideal and that the knight in shining armor is the closest that flawed man can come to emulating that ideal, that perfection.

The knight in shining armor is humble and guided by the pursuit of goodness. He is confident, capable, and powerful, yes, but he is also filled with enormous self-discipline. There is a balance between man and the inner beast here. The knight maintains control in society, but unleashes and directs his inner beast when and where necessary.

Whipped, as you put it. The knight is incapable of being whipped, and this would be an example of the trope being done poorly. The knight seduces women by act of being as opposed to act of intention. This is the idealized man. He is attractive; he has value, and women desire him by nature of his personified masculinity.

I think a lot of these old tropes and archetypes are being (currently) reshaped by modern culture. The relationship between the feminine and the masculine has shifted and much of it is being redefined as new territory is being explored. In time, it may be that the knight in shining armor is a relic of past ideals, or it may be that the archetype is undying and a true (ageless) representation of the masculine ideal.

When I like it: when it's done well, and by that, I mean when it's true to the story.



Not sure what you mean by "whipped."

I don't want to speak for anyone, but I'm guessing blackcat777 was referring to the urban dictionary definition of whipped: "being completely controlled by your girlfriend or boyfriend...in most cases a guy being completely controlled by his girlfriend."

This is a term that is commonly used to define a man who appears to be dominated by women, or a woman as the case may be.
 

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Today's trope I want to pick apart: knight in shining armor! When do you like it? \

I like it, like, NEVER. In the real world of knights, back when, armor was never really shiny. It was practical and ugly. One of the most famous archetypes was the delusional Don Quixote, whose armor was absurd and horrid. Do you think the real French knights at the disastrous battle at Agnicourt were dressed pretty? For me as a reader, a knight in "shining armor" is about as interesting as cold white bread toast.

caw
 
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The knight in shining armor is total ahistorical bullshit.

It. Never. Happened. Even in medieval fiction, it was much more common to capture a woman and rape her.

You don't want to know what the "rules of courtly love [sic]" said about knights and non-aristocratic women.

Chivalry isn't about taking care of women. It's about managing your horse in war.
 

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The knight in shining armor is total ahistorical bullshit.

It. Never. Happened. Even in medieval fiction, it was much more common to capture a woman and rape her.

You don't want to know what the "rules of courtly love [sic]" said about knights and non-aristocratic women.

Chivalry isn't about taking care of women. It's about managing your horse in war.

Heh.

I remember writing a paper in high school about the realities of courtly love as institutionalized extra-marital loopholes. Teacher wasn't impressed, nor pleased, as the apparent goal of the paper was to laud the virtues of courtly behavior. I couldn't really understand how that was the point of any of the pieces we read, since one was literally the rules for courting a married woman.

(teacher insisted it was symbolic and never consummated, but, yeah...)
 

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Urgh, I should have prefaced that I was going grimdark, so I am well aware of the difference between romanticism vs. reality. ;) My goal is to intentionally inject a sliver of romanticism in certain situations where it's basically absurd, for the purpose of turning a bunch of ideas inside out for examination.

Which brings me to...

Badass characters can still respect others, including others the opposite gender, imo. Standing up for oneself and being skilled at what one does and being proactive at solving problems doesn't necessitate abuse of those physically weaker than oneself (or of anyone, for that matter).

I tend to prefer stories where the FMC can take care of herself in most situations, and any rescuing that is done can go both ways. Don't care much for damsels in distress, unless there's a good reason for her to be in a situation where she needs help. I don't think behaving like a decent human being is necessarily "chivalry." I think of chivalry as a stricter code of conduct that includes ritualized behaviors in the context of a strict class structure.

About being a decent human being vs. notions of chivalry - this is precisely the tongue-in-cheek question I'm trying to provoke.

This particular character also dishes lots of "stay in the kitchen," "women need to be protected" sexism, specifically for the purpose of gutting that idea, examining it... role reversing it. >.> I have the most fun writing characters who are simultaneously virtuous and ignorant in conflicting ways, and letting the reader sort them out.

First, I think of it as an archetype. The knight in shining armor is about as close to the ideal man as humans can get without intruding into the realm of the deific. One could argue, for instance, that Christ is the ultimate ideal and that the knight in shining armor is the closest that flawed man can come to emulating that ideal, that perfection.

The knight in shining armor is humble and guided by the pursuit of goodness. He is confident, capable, and powerful, yes, but he is also filled with enormous self-discipline. There is a balance between man and the inner beast here. The knight maintains control in society, but unleashes and directs his inner beast when and where necessary.

Whipped, as you put it. The knight is incapable of being whipped, and this would be an example of the trope being done poorly. The knight seduces women by act of being as opposed to act of intention. This is the idealized man. He is attractive; he has value, and women desire him by nature of his personified masculinity.

I think a lot of these old tropes and archetypes are being (currently) reshaped by modern culture. The relationship between the feminine and the masculine has shifted and much of it is being redefined as new territory is being explored. In time, it may be that the knight in shining armor is a relic of past ideals, or it may be that the archetype is undying and a true (ageless) representation of the masculine ideal.

This is superbly helpful and gives me a lot to consider.

I guess what I also meant by whipped was - I don't want certain acts of basic human decency to be viewed as trite or superficially motivated. I want that little sliver of that ideal I'm using to carry its weight and serve the story function I need it to.

The situation in question is a Lima syndrome/bodyguard crush scenario, but inverted/subverted/flipped all around, morally grey and complicated. He suspects the right thing to do is not what he's been asked to do [warmongers wanting magic girls for their powers, etc.], but he doesn't have all the information concerning his situation, there's the issue of sense of duty, the girl is clearly in dire need of help...

AND there's intense sexual attraction, but he's chaste for reasons of personal neurosis. I stuck the chastity part of that trope in the microwave and blew it up with some marshmallow peeps, too. ;)
 
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Roxxsmom

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This is a pretty big question, and I don't think I can give a full answer. I imagine a book could be written on this topic and still there would be room for more commentary.

First, I think of it as an archetype. The knight in shining armor is about as close to the ideal man as humans can get without intruding into the realm of the deific. One could argue, for instance, that Christ is the ultimate ideal and that the knight in shining armor is the closest that flawed man can come to emulating that ideal, that perfection.

The knight in shining armor is humble and guided by the pursuit of goodness. He is confident, capable, and powerful, yes, but he is also filled with enormous self-discipline. There is a balance between man and the inner beast here. The knight maintains control in society, but unleashes and directs his inner beast when and where necessary.

Whipped, as you put it. The knight is incapable of being whipped, and this would be an example of the trope being done poorly. The knight seduces women by act of being as opposed to act of intention. This is the idealized man. He is attractive; he has value, and women desire him by nature of his personified masculinity.

I think a lot of these old tropes and archetypes are being (currently) reshaped by modern culture. The relationship between the feminine and the masculine has shifted and much of it is being redefined as new territory is being explored. In time, it may be that the knight in shining armor is a relic of past ideals, or it may be that the archetype is undying and a true (ageless) representation of the masculine ideal.

When I like it: when it's done well, and by that, I mean when it's true to the story.





I don't want to speak for anyone, but I'm guessing blackcat777 was referring to the urban dictionary definition of whipped: "being completely controlled by your girlfriend or boyfriend...in most cases a guy being completely controlled by his girlfriend."

This is a term that is commonly used to define a man who appears to be dominated by women, or a woman as the case may be.

Ahh, I wondered, but the term seems so 1980s when guys would say a friend who actually preferred to spend time with his girlfriend instead of drinking with the guys was PW'd. It's sort of an adolescent concept in any case. I thought we'd moved past that sort of thing by now, and I didn't know how that applied to knights in shining armor archetypes anyway.

What the OP described didn't sound like a guy being "controlled" by a woman, unless being decent and respectful to women is being controlled by them. Chivalry is sometimes used to refer to putting women up on a pedestal, opening doors for them and deferring to them in certain ritualized contexts, but it's really an entrapment in patriarchal settings, with the men the ones calling the shots with the implication that women are fragile flowers who can't do things for themselves (or must be jealously guarded from other men).

Urgh, I should have prefaced that I was going grimdark, so I am well aware of the difference between romanticism vs. reality. ;) My goal is to intentionally inject a sliver of romanticism in certain situations where it's basically absurd, for the purpose of turning a bunch of ideas inside out for examination.
sounds a bit like what Abercrombie tried to do with Jeval in his first trilogy.



About being a decent human being vs. notions of chivalry - this is precisely the tongue-in-cheek question I'm trying to provoke.

This particular character also dishes lots of "stay in the kitchen," "women need to be protected" sexism, specifically for the purpose of gutting that idea, examining it... role reversing it. >.> I have the most fun writing characters who are simultaneously virtuous and ignorant in conflicting ways, and letting the reader sort them out.

Sounds like it could be fun. Most people are mixed bags and bundles of contradictions, certainly.
 
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JoB42

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What the OP described didn't sound like a guy being "controlled" by a woman, unless being decent and respectful to women is being controlled by them. Chivalry is sometimes used to refer to putting women up on a pedestal, opening doors for them and deferring to them in certain ritualized contexts, but it's really an entrapment in patriarchal settings, with the men the ones calling the shots with the implication that women are fragile flowers who can't do things for themselves (or must be jealously guarded from other men).

I'm not sure what you mean by "entrapment in a patriarchal settings." I'll have to give that some thought.

I don't think anyone is saying that men being decent and respectful to women equals being controlled by women. The OP wrote, "at what point does the trope become off-putting if said knight tries too hard for a lady and seems whipped?"

The suggestion I'm reading there is that the knight in question is in service to the woman. He is effectively her servant. "Bring me my coat," she says. "Fetch my stool, light a candle, it's dark in here, cut some firewood, saddle my horse, slay my naysayer, purchase me this trinket..." The worry I believe the OP suggested is that the knight might stray too far into service under the guise of being respectful and accommodating.

I think of it somewhat like Westley in The Princess Bride. He is a serving boy at the beginning of the story. Young and naive in love. No matter what Buttercup needs, he responds, "As you wish." This is not the response of a man in a reciprocal relationship. This is the response of a "whipped" boy, a servant in service, just as young Westley is in service to Buttercup. He doesn't respond to her with honesty. He doesn't let her know what he wants or how he feels; instead, he hides behind a persona that exists solely to grant her wishes. For Westley to grow up, to become a man and find his own agency, he had to leave and develop himself.

Westley returns, and he is now the Dread Pirate Roberts. Left a boy and returned a man, he no longer treats Buttercup as his better. Rather, he challenges her and he holds her to standards. The reason is because he now knows himself, and that knowledge of himself allows him to be true to Buttercup. He no longer lies to her about his wants and needs. It's no longer him in the background letting things be as she wishes. Still, Westley accepts it as his duty to protect her, just as he would presumably protect anyone he loved, and just as Buttercup accepts it as her duty to protect him. This is a reciprocal relationship between adults, absent persona.

That is an example of a relationship growing in a healthy manner. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes the relationship lingers in an unhealthy hell, with each side attempting to dominate the other. This power struggle erodes trust, creates chaos, and leaves emotional scars. Maybe the "whipped" boy never grew up and instead learned to resent her wishes.

Take the Leonard Cohen song "I'm Your Man" as an example. It begins by saying, "If you want a lover, I'll do anything you ask me to." The song continues by making powerful pledges, saying, "And if you want another kind of love I'll wear a mask for you. If you want a partner, take my hand, or if you want to strike me down in anger, here I stand. I'm your man."

Imagine that. This man is giving himself wholly fully completely. Or so he says, and I have no doubt that he actually means it when he says it. But as the song continues, we learn more about the way of things. "Ah, the moon's too bright, the chain's too tight, the beast won't go to sleep." So here the man is struggling. How can he be who he isn't? How can he deny his own wants and his own needs? The song then says, "I've been running through these promises to you that I made and could not keep."

He meant those things when he said them. He was whipped. He was in service. He was a child in love, and he had no idea how to be honest with himself. As time progressed, he learned. He learned he could not be a servant to her needs alone. The beast would not go to sleep, it needed more chain, and he made of himself a liar.

The rest of the song is just as fascinating in my opinion. It's like he's stuck in this pattern of behavior that he can't control. He says, "Ah, but a man never got a woman back by begging on his knees." And how true is that? Very powerful insight there. He knows he can't save his relationship by continuing to be a slave, but oh if he could he would as he goes on to say, "Or I'd crawl to you baby and I'd fall at your feet and I'd howl at your beauty like a dog in heat and I'd claw at your heart and I'd tear at your sheet, I'd say please (please), I'm your man."
 

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It becomes off-putting at the point where women cease to be characters or people and are reduced to trophies to put on pedestals.

The latter is something I encounter quite a bit of resistance to, ideologically speaking, with guys IRL. This is a somewhat sticky subject but there is a particular set of guys, at least in the geek communities to which I generally confine myself, who have a tendency to idolise + idealise women. The women in question cease to be people, becoming instead blank canvases for said men to project their wish-fulfillment fantasies onto. But that criticism is sticky because the guys in question will say (and believe) that their behaviour isn't misogynistic. It feeds into the whole Nice Guy Lie that drives me nuts but that's several hundred cans of worms so better stop there.

My personal barometer; if the knight's need to rescue is clearly more important than the damsel or the actual rescue (in plot terms), then that's usually a good indication that it's crossed from narrative conflict resolution and firmly into the land of wish-fulfillment. Obviously for plot reasons people do get into bad situations and need a helpign hand or three.

I should add as well that I kind of hate the trope in reverse--the female wish fulfillment of being saved. You sometimes get it in romance or stories with heavy romance angles (eg outlander, or in fact a lot of daytime Chinese television) where the woman just stumbles from one improbably idiotic encounter to the next, duly requiring rescuing from the over-eager, overly-helpful male love interest. Just let her die, ffs. It's clearly evolution at work.
 
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The suggestion I'm reading there is that the knight in question is in service to the woman. He is effectively her servant. "Bring me my coat," she says. "Fetch my stool, light a candle, it's dark in here, cut some firewood, saddle my horse, slay my naysayer, purchase me this trinket..." The worry I believe the OP suggested is that the knight might stray too far into service under the guise of being respectful and accommodating.

This is pretty much what the medieval romance "Lancelot the Knight of the Cart/Le chevalier de la charrette" by Chretien De Troyes (d. 1191) is about. Lancelot, ordered by Guinevere (the queen, married to King Arthur, with whom Lancelet has the adulterous affair that destroys the Round Table and Camelot) even loses a tournament on purpose.

Chretien invented the character of Lancelot; he didn't exist in any prior version of the Arthurian mythos.
 

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Ok - this is something I have some experience with. I volunteer and moderate on another (non-writer) forum where this issue comes up.

There are actually TWO versions of the need to try to save others, KISA as you know (Men: Knight in Shining Armor) and FN (Women: Florence Nightengale). The names really don't matter because it's pretty much the same thing. What you should know about this mental state is that it's never really about helping the other person, instead people do this because of the way it makes THEM feel. They are attracted to (usually) self destructive people who continually mess up their lives - and the KISA / FN moves in to 'save them'. The issue always comes down to the fact that you can't really save people from themselves. In the long term the messed up person will always drag the KISA / FN down with them.

One of my wife's friend is a FN type. She's an intelligent, strong willed, and hard working woman. She's always laughing, joking, and is very social. And yet, she has this blind spot for men - and always ends up with loser boyfriends and husbands. Her last husband was living in his car when they met. He was addicted to gambling, drank too much, and generally treated her horribly. She ended up divorcing him when she discovered he was trying to take out a loan on her house so he could go gamble.

Both men and women feel great about themselves when they (in their opinion) save another person. It boosts their ego / self esteem, etc. When presented with two people, one that's a trainwreck and the other not, a KISA / FN will gravitate toward the one that needs them. He/she doesn't need me becomes he/she doesn't want me. I've heard of men and women involved in good solid relationships with loving and supportive spouses, step away from that relationship and hook up with addicts of all varieties. The endorphin rush of being needed is a strong draw for KISA / FN tendencies.

I wonder if you're using the term KISA to indicate something different though. A guy willing to chase a damsel in distress to the ends of the world is either madly in love with her... or... maybe crazy.
 

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Thank you everyone for the amazing and helpful responses!

Ahh, I wondered, but the term seems so 1980s when guys would say a friend who actually preferred to spend time with his girlfriend instead of drinking with the guys was PW'd. It's sort of an adolescent concept in any case.

I can think of both lighthearted/juvenile examples of this, but also more serious ones that deal with toxic/controlling partners and broken power dynamics.

My concern is with where to draw the line for fawning behavior.

The worry I believe the OP suggested is that the knight might stray too far into service under the guise of being respectful and accommodating.

This is exactly it.

It becomes off-putting at the point where women cease to be characters or people and are reduced to trophies to put on pedestals.

The latter is something I encounter quite a bit of resistance to, ideologically speaking, with guys IRL. This is a somewhat sticky subject but there is a particular set of guys, at least in the geek communities to which I generally confine myself, who have a tendency to idolise + idealise women. The women in question cease to be people, becoming instead blank canvases for said men to project their wish-fulfillment fantasies onto. But that criticism is sticky because the guys in question will say (and believe) that their behaviour isn't misogynistic. It feeds into the whole Nice Guy Lie that drives me nuts but that's several hundred cans of worms so better stop there.

This is also where I want to stick a knife.

My personal barometer; if the knight's need to rescue is clearly more important than the damsel or the actual rescue (in plot terms), then that's usually a good indication that it's crossed from narrative conflict resolution and firmly into the land of wish-fulfillment.

This is insightful. Makes me think of the Fixer type of personality that gets addicted to fixing other people's problems in real life, too (that usually ends up attracting people who are addicted to creating problems, different story for a different day).


"Bring me my coat," she says. "Fetch my stool, light a candle, it's dark in here, cut some firewood, saddle my horse, slay my naysayer, purchase me this trinket..."

"Shag Merlin."

There are seriously interesting questions of female power to be examined if you continue to escalate and spin the dynamic.

Both men and women feel great about themselves when they (in their opinion) save another person. It boosts their ego / self esteem, etc. When presented with two people, one that's a trainwreck and the other not, a KISA / FN will gravitate toward the one that needs them. He/she doesn't need me becomes he/she doesn't want me. I've heard of men and women involved in good solid relationships with loving and supportive spouses, step away from that relationship and hook up with addicts of all varieties. The endorphin rush of being needed is a strong draw for KISA / FN tendencies.

This can be a 100% narcissistic selfish endeavor. It can also be leveraged for manipulation later, "But I did X for you." Different twisted power dynamic.

Or, if less from the narcissistic angle, rescuing can supplant an unhealthy need for external validation.
 
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Thank you everyone for the amazing and helpful responses!

I can think of both lighthearted/juvenile examples of this, but also more serious ones that deal with toxic/controlling partners and broken power dynamics.

I've personally known more women who are involved with toxic, controlling partners than men. I won't say guys never end up being abused or controlled by partners, but the fact that we have flip, dismissive words for the concept (like "hen pecked" or "PW'd") with men but not the reverse says a lot about unspoken assumption about which power imbalances are normal in relationships.

My concern is with where to draw the line for fawning behavior.

I don't think of fawning as chivalrous, but more something someone does to curry favor with someone who has power over them, most often in an institutionalized way. Politicians fawn over rich donors. Lobbyists fawn over politicians. Junior scientists fawn over members of the National Academy when they come to campus to give a talk. Employees may fawn over their bosses when it's time for a raise. Dogs fawn over their masters.

If a man is fawning over me, I'd honestly find it rather creepy. It's the kind of thing future stalkers do, those guys who love you "too much."

Of course, it's good to think of these things if you want to go into deconstruction mode.

And in my experience, those guys who put a woman up on a pedestal, or put women in general on pedestals for that matter, can be downright nasty if oa woman shows herself to be a normal, flawed human being.

I think courtly love shielded from this in some cases because there was a distance there. It was supposed to be ritualized and idealized, but it didn't consume the men 24-7. They went off and did their thing most of the time, and most of those knights had "ordinary" women they didn't put on pedestals for their "real" manly needs (note there were times in the pre-modern period when women were regarded as having sexual needs and appetites that were at least as voracious as a man's).
 

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For me the most important issue is the difference between the idealized knight and the reality. Some stories play up the bright parts, some the noir aspects. The pluses and the minuses.

Often they'll go overboard in one direction of the other. The antihero stories (Batman, the hard-bitten private eye, the rusty-armored knight) show the downsides of being a dark knight.

The hard-bitten PI usually has a sick or at least sickened relationship with women. Cynical outside, softy inside is a favorite trope. WOUNDED is another, often explaining the outside/inside dichoctomy.

You notice the knight is a man?

This is why I prefer contempo fantasy and mainstream stories rather than medieval fantasy or historicals. In those women get to be the heroes and antiheroes.
 

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For me the most important issue is the difference between the idealized knight and the reality. Some stories play up the bright parts, some the noir aspects. The pluses and the minuses.

Often they'll go overboard in one direction of the other. The antihero stories (Batman, the hard-bitten private eye, the rusty-armored knight) show the downsides of being a dark knight.

The hard-bitten PI usually has a sick or at least sickened relationship with women. Cynical outside, softy inside is a favorite trope. WOUNDED is another, often explaining the outside/inside dichoctomy.

You notice the knight is a man?

This is why I prefer contempo fantasy and mainstream stories rather than medieval fantasy or historicals. In those women get to be the heroes and antiheroes.

Women's roles in novels have historically pushed aside - what you end up with is half of the story (IMO). I've seen women who take the FN role wreck their families when they hook up with a male that needs saving. The new man (who is often just like her last one) has problems (addiction, criminal, etc) and will abuse her children, ruin her other relationships, and mess her up financially. There's a surprising (or maybe not) number of step fathers that sexually abuse the children of the FN women that allow them into their lives.
 

Roxxsmom

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This is why I prefer contempo fantasy and mainstream stories rather than medieval fantasy or historicals. In those women get to be the heroes and antiheroes.

Women can be and are heroes and antiheroes in plenty of medieval and historical fantasy, not to mention secondary world fantasy in pre-industrialized settings. I could list some of these books, but I can't believe you haven't run across any of them being discussed in the SF and F threads. And these stories aren't even "unrealistic."

First of all, not all heroes are knights, soldiers or warriors. Secondly, there are examples of women warriors, samurai, villains, rogues, pirates, duelists, criminals, spies, assassins, ninja, and other combative types in almost every historical culture, even if they weren't always common. Thirdly, when one world builds for fantasy, they can tweak speculative elements so that combative women are as common as they need to be for the story to work.

Women's roles in novels have historically pushed aside - what you end up with is half of the story (IMO). I've seen women who take the FN role wreck their families when they hook up with a male that needs saving. The new man (who is often just like her last one) has problems (addiction, criminal, etc) and will abuse her children, ruin her other relationships, and mess her up financially. There's a surprising (or maybe not) number of step fathers that sexually abuse the children of the FN women that allow them into their lives.

Wow, this seems like you're overgeneralizing a bit. Sure, there are women who are drawn to dysfunctional men, and I'm sure some have endangered themselves or their kids to pursue relationships with them. There was one such case in our neighborhood, and it was sickening (I suspect the woman might have been an addict too, though). But I'd hardly call women who do this "female knights," nor do all, or even most, women who want to be active or save or help others do so by pursuing romantic relationships with dysfunctional men. IME women who are attracted to these guys are working though issues of their own, possibly from their own families of origin. Nor are most stepparents dysfunctional child abusers.

What about women who become soldiers, or who pursue careers as physicians or veterinarians, or who become firefighters or police officers, or who become social workers, or teachers, or nurses, or who run for office, or who become clergy, or who do any of a thousand other "helping or saving" things (some historically male-dominated professions, but not all) as examples of "female knights"?

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but your post sounded like you think women who want to be rescuers are uniformly dysfunctional or abnormal and that there isn't a healthy outlet for these desires in all genders.
 
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indianroads

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Florence Nightingale, it's a term commonly used to describe women who display similar characteristics to KISA males. It's used by councillors who have patients with this tendency, or have suffered the fallout from a partner with it.

ETA, I don’t know where you got ‘female nights’ in what I wrote. Knights is spelled with a K.

KISA and FN are different terms for the same tendency, an attraction (not necessarily romantic) to help someone else, often placing your lifestyle at risk. I didn’t make the term up.

Another ETA, maybe this misunderstanding is an auto correct editor issue. Go upto post #12 for clarity.
 
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Yes, those terms exist, but making a wide generalisation is verging into pop psychology, specifically when you link it to ego. (I'm married to a counsellor/psychologist; mentioning that because I think you might not take me seriously otherwise.) If we're picking on spelling, councillor is the political kind; counsellor or counselor (depending on UK or USA) is the psychological kind.

Women can absolutely described as a Knights, and men as FN. In fact, that's a category I fall into (knight) and it does almost always describe people who initiate romantic relationships to 'rescue' someone. Very rarely is it used for other relationships because it's not as problematic in other types of relationship. Conversely, FN usually applies to a patient and carer relationship, and is centered around the act of physical care.

It's less about gender and more about what role the person in question occupies. No doubt there will be some overlap and people who fall into both.

Building on that more broadly, the personality type you're describing isn't negative by default. Almost every person who works in a care profession, e.g., doctors, nurses, social workers, counsellors(!), and so forth, feel a strong need to support and assist others. It's a good motivation and while some of them may be driven by ego, I'd be cautious about saying all or even most are. An emotional need to help isn't the same as an emotional need to be recognised for helping.

In relation to the individuals themselves, it becomes a problem when the person in question can't or won't draw establish sufficient boundaries for themselves. There is nothing wrong with helping someone who lives in a car and has an addiction; the problem is marrying them (!) in your real life example.
 
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kwanzaabot

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Is nobody going to bring up Jaime Lannister?
It's true that he's not really a knight in shining armour, but he has a reputation as one, and is a damn interesting deconstruction of the trope.
 
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Elizabeth Moon is worth looking at as an author who does interesting things in SF and F with the various knightly tropes.
 

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This is a really fascinating topic. It's made me realize how I unconsciously twisted the trope in my first book, and I see some pitfalls I need to watch out for with the main character of my second book. She's from a culture where women often assume they have to "fix" what their men mess up, and it definitely can turn into a toxic situation (it does in my story!).

The topic in general made me think of how ancient sagas dealt with or undermined the Disney version of the trope we tend to see now. For instance, the Nibelungen Saga had two of the most interesting female characters, in my opinion -- Kriemhild and Brunnhilde. Kriemhild married one of the original "knights in shining armor," Siegfried, who slayed the dragon etc. Brunnhilde was the queen of Iceland and vaguely magical. A lot of bad stuff was done to her by the oh so noble Siegfried, who was killed because of his own stupidity and pride. The women became in-laws and enemies, and their feud reached far beyond their men and ended with death and destruction. I liked the story because these women really took center stage, even if it was them acting very badly out of pride and revenge. I've read a modern German translation of the original saga, and it was fascinating to see how pretty much no one was noble in that story in the end, not even the shining knight.
 

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There's no historical reality to it, but it's still interesting as a trope. There's a lot there to deconstruct, but I can think of two examples (both female and from anime, incidentally) of the trope played straight: Erza Scarlet from Fairy Tail and Artoria/Saber from FATE. Both characters are driven strongly by a sense of honor, duty, and protecting those in need. Chivalry, in that sense, doesn't have to be about courtly love and doesn't have to be male: it's an idealized vision of what a knight is supposed to stand for, at least in the modern mind.
 

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Florence Nightingale, it's a term commonly used to describe women who display similar characteristics to KISA males. It's used by councillors who have patients with this tendency, or have suffered the fallout from a partner with it.

I'm talking about the real Florence Nightingale, and real women who become doctors, nurses, or other helpers or rescuers, not neurotic women who are putting their families at risk by taking on men who are serious "projects."

ETA, I don’t know where you got ‘female nights’ in what I wrote. Knights is spelled with a K.

I assumed FN meant "Female knights, since we were talking about the knights in shining armor trope for men and you were tossing "FN" out as a female equivalent for "KISA." Also, I was under the influence of cold medicine.

KISA and FN are different terms for the same tendency, an attraction (not necessarily romantic) to help someone else, often placing your lifestyle at risk. I didn’t make the term up.

Another ETA, maybe this misunderstanding is an auto correct editor issue. Go upto post #12 for clarity.

I've heard the term "Florence Nightingale" you describe used for women who gravitate towards extreme caregiving roles, but that's not what I was talking about when I mentioned that women can be legitimate rescuers who don't put their own lifestyles at risk, just as men can.

I don't think the sociological issue you mentioned is the same thing as what the OP was referring to when she talked about the knight in shining armor trope for male characters in medieval style fantasy and was worrying whether or not a guy who was extremely chivalrous or deferential to women in that highly ritualized way might be perceived as "weak" by readers.

In relation to the individuals themselves, it becomes a problem when the person in question can't or won't draw establish sufficient boundaries for themselves. There is nothing wrong with helping someone who lives in a car and has an addiction; the problem is marrying them (!) in your real life example.

This is a good way of describing it.

The question I still have for the OP is how does she want to explore or deconstruct the fantasy trope of knights in shining armor, and in what setting? Showing someone who is obsessed with rescuing someone who doesn't want or need rescuing is one way, and probably the way I'd go if it were my book (which it isn't, of course), because I like strong, independent women as characters in novels. Another would be to show them as a dysfunctional person who rescues very dysfunctional people and gets too "involved" emotionally, thus subverting their own needs and well being. There are others too.
 
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I don't have a problem with KiSA at all, whether played straight or subverted. What I don't like is the Damsel in Distress, which is a separate trope. Knights generally have more important things to do with their time than wandering around the woods looking for women with problems to go hit on.