Hong Kong: Humanity Not Lost: Police Arrest Parents for Suspected Child Abuse

Snitchcat

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Sometimes, the news gets depressing. But after 2 and a bit years of monitoring, the parents of an eleven-year-old girl were arrested. According to reports, the girl was sent to school wearing only a dress and a cardigan in 7°C weather. The school's social worker (if I read the article correctly) called the police. Sometimes, humanity wins. :)


(Other signs of suspected child abuse: the girl was only allowed to take a shower after everyone else in her family had. But by that time, there was no hot water (a potential death knell in the current freeze* we have.))

*In HK, temperatures remain around 30°C for approximately 9 - 10 months of the year, but the consistently high humidity makes it feel a lot hotter than that. Winter usually ranges from the low to high teens; prolonged temperatures lower than 10° is unusual. So 7°C is freezing for us. Also, there's no central heating here; indeed, only have space heaters or portable radiators. Houses / flats are not insulated, either.

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...g-police-arrest-parents-girl-11-after-she-was
 
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Roxxsmom

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Do they have mandated reporting in Hong Kong? They do in the US, though the details of the laws can vary by state. I don't know how common such laws are in the rest of the world. I also don't know is how effective they are, not being a social worker. They do put pressure on teachers, medical workers, and other people who work with minors to pay attention and report things that don't seem right.

I work at a community college, so the overwhelming majority of our students are adults, but they've recently begun putting an asterisk after the name of underage students on our rosters. Still, the system assumes we spend a lot of close-up time with students (not the case in lecture classes) that would allow us to spot signs. Also, it assumes we can put all the names and faces together from the beginning of the semester. I gather some people are much better with names than I am (still working on learning everyone's name in my lab class in week four of the semester), but even so.

I assume in K-12 the situation is different, though, and it's easier for grade-school teachers to spot signs of abuse. A young child coming to school in improper attire for the weather is definitely a warning sign. Still, the article said they had been following the case for two years, which seems like a long time.
 
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frimble3

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Yes, but if the inappropriate clothing was the tip-off, and the weather is usually warm, it may have been dismissed as 'unpreparedness' the first few times. Then the weather gets warmer, and everything seems fine. I imagine there was more going on for them to keep an eye on things for two years. At least the authorities did something, considering the stories about children being starved to death or denied medication that have been cropping up.
Good on the social workers and the police for staying with it, instead of shrugging it off and going on to 'bigger' crimes.
 

Roxxsmom

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Yes, but if the inappropriate clothing was the tip-off, and the weather is usually warm, it may have been dismissed as 'unpreparedness' the first few times. Then the weather gets warmer, and everything seems fine. I imagine there was more going on for them to keep an eye on things for two years. At least the authorities did something, considering the stories about children being starved to death or denied medication that have been cropping up.
Good on the social workers and the police for staying with it, instead of shrugging it off and going on to 'bigger' crimes.

I imagine it's very hard to spot some signs of abuse and neglect, though it still seems odd that they knew something was wrong for two years and could only act once a cold snap made it clear she wasn't being dressed appropriately for the weather. Maybe it's the way the article was worded, but I wondered how they knew something was wrong but couldn't act on it before. The article mentioned something about the girl always having to bathe last too, after all the hot water was gone. Not sure how they knew this.

This is one of those odd things about child abuse and neglect. Often, parents who abuse and neglect one kid will be doing the same with all of them, as with that horrific case in CA recently. But in cases where only one child in a family is being mistreated, it can be even harder to spot patterns, I suppose.

What's even harder to get is the motivation for parents who single out a particular child for abuse and neglect. The article says it's because she had a cleft lip. That's pretty awful if this is true. And wouldn't failing to get treatment for a correctable medical condition also be a sign of neglect? I don't know how the health care system works in Hong Kong, though.
 
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Snitchcat

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According to the article, the parents are unemployed, on benefits. Their two children were fostered, but recently returned to their parents for reasons I didn't see.

We know about the bathing issue, because the girl provided the information.

For some parents / families, anything that can be seen as a disability or flaw is grounds for discrimination. It's to do with education, upbringing and beliefs. While most of Hong Kong is pretty good about accepting people for who they are, there are plenty of pockets and examples where those who are slightly different are rejected. And with the parents being unemployed, I can make several assumptions about their background. However, I need more information before I'd be willing to share my thoughts on this point.

Correcting a cleft lip is available here. But the parents have to know about cleft lips and medical options to do something about it. If the parents don't know, and the social workers aren't trained to add to that type of knowledge, it's not going to get done. While education here is quite good, in some areas, the lack is appalling. However, obviously I don't know what the parents and the social workers know or don't know, so my comment on whether or not the kid could get the cleft corrected is not really worth anything. Without researching the health laws here, I don't know if failing to get treatment for a correctable medical treatment is an offence or not.

As far as mandated reporting goes, I'm not sure. But the classes are large here due to the population number, so it's not always possible to spot signs of abuse. However, social workers do keep an eye on their charges, and the teachers do what they can. Normally, the schools and social workers cooperate closely. It also helps that families in HK are usually limited to two kids. There's no law in HK regarding the number of children you can have (China recently also lifted the one-child policy), but the cost of raising children here can be prohibitive if you have more than two. Unfortunately, even two can be a struggle. So, it's similar to natural selection: if you can't afford to raise children, generally, you don't. Of course, the flip side is the cultural belief: You have children to take care of you in your twilight years, and for the boys, to continue the family name.

WRT to healthcare, there's the government / public funded system, and the private system. Obviously, it's cheaper (and sometimes free / heavily subsidised) to go to a government hospital, though the waiting list is long. However, the hospitals do offer walk-in clinics. But in flu season, waiting times can be up to 6 hours; it hit 8 hours previously. The cost, though, is mostly within the affordability range of even the poorest who can get to the hospital.

The private system, particularly the private clinics are obviously more expensive. However, they have much faster queue times and offer both walk-in and appointment, and are also more conveniently located. But again, for certain demographics, health care is subsidised. For example, we have an elderly healthcare programme. The elderly have a set number of doctor's coupons per month, which they can either use, or save up (maximum is approximately HK$2000 (around US$256), I think). Each time they go to the doctor, they can use the coupons instead of paying. If they run out of coupons, they pay the remainder in cash (usually around HK$200 or less, approx. US$26 or under).

For those of us who work full time, we have company-paid health insurance (and private individual insurance if we want). So if we visit the doctor, we usually pay first, then claim back a certain amount on the company's insurance plan. And depending on company and company policy, the insurance may also include dental and Chinese medicine.

The system is far from perfect, but largely works for everyone.
 

mccardey

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According to the article, the parents are unemployed, on benefits.

Relevant, because?

And with the parents being unemployed, I can make several assumptions about their background.


Relevant, because?

However, I need more information before I'd be willing to share my thoughts on this point.
Oh, I think that ship's sailed....

All that aside, my question would be - how good is your foster-care or child-in-care system? Because arresting the parents is all very gratifying and everything, but if that child has to deal with a system like our foster-care system, or go back to her parents, or go to live with her relatives who may or may not be adequate carers when one considers all the things you've said (or not quite said) about where she's come from socially - then how is this shaming helpful? Because I assume the arrest and publication of same is all about shaming, isn't it? I think the better answer if one is dealing with ignorance or out-dated cultural views - which is what you seem to be almost-suggesting, unless I'm misreading - is something that ignores the shaming in favour of quiet support and education.

I can understand shaming in cases of outright abuse for pathological reasons - but even then I'm not sure that it's helpful. You're shaming the place that the child has come from. There's a spillover there. It's not without consequences for the child.
 
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blacbird

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Do they have mandated reporting in Hong Kong? They do in the US, though the details of the laws can vary by state.

Reporting doesn't matter if there's no one to report the abuse. We in the U.S. have just recently been told of arguably the most atrocious case of child abuse in my lifetime, the Turpin family in California, who kept 13 children (some of adult age) imprisoned in their house for many many years, denied food, chained to beds, living in filth, while their pet dogs were kept in fine condition. Nobody knew about it until a 14-year-old daughter managed to escape through a window and tell neighbors.

Hardly a case that argues that humanity is not lost.

caw
 

Snitchcat

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Relevant, because?

Oh, I think that ship's sailed....

I'm not sure that ship has left the port yet.

But, relevant because if you're unemployed in HK beyond a certain length of time, you're in huge trouble. This city is good if you have a job or are willing to do something about your circumstances. But if you get caught on the unemployment side and seem to refuse to do anything about it, this city is very cruel.

The unemployment is also relevant, because when combined with the cleft lip issue as well as the cultural biases, then it creates a picture of very ignorant people who may have chosen to remain ignorant despite any help they may have received. However, this is all conjecture and I hesitate to comment further because I don't know what led to the parents' unemployment, and I don't know how long they've been unemployed. Part of me wants to slam them; the other part wants to understand first then decide whether or not I should rip into them. Either way, however, from a position of privilege, I despise what they're doing / did to the kids.

All that aside, my question would be - how good is your foster-care or child-in-care system?
I don't know. I never looked into it.

how is this shaming helpful? Because I assume the arrest and publication of same is all about shaming, isn't it?
Shaming? This type of news isn't shaming for HK. The shaming news is usually associated with celebrities.

I think the better answer if one is dealing with ignorance or out-dated cultural views - which is what you seem to be almost-suggesting, unless I'm misreading - is something that ignores the shaming in favour of quiet support and education.
You could say that. :)

You're shaming the place that the child has come from. There's a spillover there. It's not without consequences for the child.
That's the thing: However this nastiness is handled, there will always be consequences for the kids. Sigh.
 

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Reporting doesn't matter if there's no one to report the abuse. We in the U.S. have just recently been told of arguably the most atrocious case of child abuse in my lifetime, the Turpin family in California, who kept 13 children (some of adult age) imprisoned in their house for many many years, denied food, chained to beds, living in filth, while their pet dogs were kept in fine condition. Nobody knew about it until a 14-year-old daughter managed to escape through a window and tell neighbors.

Hardly a case that argues that humanity is not lost.

caw

I saw the news about that case. Depraved is one description.

No one to report to? There's a system in place here, but if necessary, social workers can call the police. Which is what happened in this particular case.

Also, because humanity was not seen in the Turpin case does not mean it's lost. Different perspectives.
 

mccardey

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The unemployment is also relevant, because when combined with the cleft lip issue as well as the cultural biases, then it creates a picture of very ignorant people who may have chosen to remain ignorant despite any help they may have received. However, this is all conjecture and I hesitate to comment further because I don't know what led to the parents' unemployment, and I don't know how long they've been unemployed.
Yeah, but the thing is you've said it and commented on it already. Not just you, of course - this is News being broadcast and repeated and That. Is. Not. Good. For. The. Child.

Take it from me - when concerned neighbors befriend the family and offer quiet help, everyone benefits. When outraged neighbours call the police, and the police leave - omg does that kid get a thrashing.

Times that by a huge amount once it gets broadcast.

I would be doing less to amplify the shame and more to give quiet support, in an ideal world. Because kids.
 
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Snitchcat

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I'm just going to leave it as cultural differences and filters. :)
 

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I can think of one way in which the lack of employment could theoretically be relevant. It sounds Like HK's cold snap was similar to one we recently had here, that is, unusually cold weather with a city and population accustomed to a warm climate. (A half-inch of snow shut the city down for three days).

The cold here got bad enough that I pulled out a thick winter coat that I haven't worn since the late nineties when I lived in Virginia. Most people here don't have anything remotely that warm, because you simply don't need it 99% of the time, and coats aren't cheap. A lot of people lacked sufficiently warm clothing, and if you're broke, going out and buying coats and longjohns may not be an option.

I didn't hear about it as much this time, but the last serious cold snap we had, there were a lot of news stories about poor children walking to school in thin clothes because their families couldn't afford proper coats and warm-weather gear. (Several charities started collections to help distribute warm clothing). This time, they closed down the city for three days, including schools, and I suspect the lack of warm clothing among poorer students was as much a contributing factor in that decision as the ice on the roads.

*Of course, this doesn't address the other issues in the article, such as the cold showers, so I'm not defending these particular parents, but if the ONLY thing they'd reported was lack of warm clothing, I would certainly have that question in my mind of "are they really abusive, or just too poor to afford warm clothes on sudden notice?"
 
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neandermagnon

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I imagine it's very hard to spot some signs of abuse and neglect, though it still seems odd that they knew something was wrong for two years and could only act once a cold snap made it clear she wasn't being dressed appropriately for the weather. Maybe it's the way the article was worded, but I wondered how they knew something was wrong but couldn't act on it before.

Having done a fair bit of child protection training from back in the day when I used to teach (have worked with vulnerable children so got extra training) I would say that a lack of training and a lack of procedures is the cause of this. Firstly, if someone hasn't been trained in how to spot signs of abuse and neglect, they probably are going to miss quite a few, or focus on the wrong things. Even when people spot signs or just have a vague sense that something's not right, if there's no coordinated way for it to be reported, you tend to get several individuals who have concerns but don't talk to each other, so go on thinking maybe they're reading the situation wrong or their concerns aren't sufficient to say anything etc. Nothing gets said so nothing gets done. In retrospect, people think "if only they'd talked to each other..."

In the UK nowadays, every school has a named child protection person and every teacher knows who this person is (as well as getting basic training in child protection) and if they have any concerns about the welfare of any child, they speak to the named person. This means that the named person gets a chance to build up a bigger picture. One person reporting a vague concern might not lead to anything (though one person reporting that a child's disclosed abuse or who has serious concerns would), but when you get several teachers/adults in the school feeling that something's not right - that's something to look into. The named person gets lots of additional child protection training. They may speak to children, try to find out more about what's going on, and it's the named person who will speak to social services.

It used to be that various services didn't speak to each other and that led to many things being missed. In the wake of some high profile cases like Fred and Rose West (who severely abused their kids as well as murdering lots of people and at least one of their children), it turned out lots of people from various services (school, A&E, police etc) had had concerns about the kids, but because they'd never spoken to each other, no-one could see the big picture. Opportunities to prevent much worse things happening to the kids were missed.

The article mentioned something about the girl always having to bathe last too, after all the hot water was gone. Not sure how they knew this.

Kids tell teachers stuff.

This is one of those odd things about child abuse and neglect. Often, parents who abuse and neglect one kid will be doing the same with all of them, as with that horrific case in CA recently. But in cases where only one child in a family is being mistreated, it can be even harder to spot patterns, I suppose. What's even harder to get is the motivation for parents who single out a particular child for abuse and neglect.

Cases where just one child in the family is abused or neglected are more common than you'd think. It tends to come from parent(s) scapegoating a particular child and always blaming them when things go wrong. It goes along with parents labelling and stereotyping their kids (e.g. "...the clever one, ...the naughty one" kind of thing) but much more extreme.
 

mccardey

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Cases where just one child in the family is abused or neglected are more common than you'd think. It tends to come from parent(s) scapegoating a particular child and always blaming them when things go wrong. It goes along with parents labelling and stereotyping their kids (e.g. "...the clever one, ...the naughty one" kind of thing) but much more extreme.
Scapegoating also tends to be amplified through the family as time goes on - and become picked up and accepted by non-family members as well, who have the idea implanted before they get to know the child that this child is trouble. Which is one of the main reasons why quiet, supportive, ongoing help for the child is better than simply alerting police or setting the news media onto the parents. The scapegoated child has a life-time of unlearning to do about how bad she is - and it's hard to unlearn that when your family endorses the scapegoating.

Neander, I do like idea of the named child protection person in each school. That's a step in the very-much-right direction, I'd say. Obviously it requires an intelligent and engaged person, and for the child to be in school, but very much the right direction. There's also a very good program in some countries called Homestart, where a safe volunteer is matched with a family who might be displaying some problems to act as a kind of spare aunt. Basically, you turn up once a week, chat to the mum, play a bit with the kids and remember to ask how Jenny's science test went, and give all the positive feedback possible. Often the parent has a marked need of some positive support and feedback themselves, and the "difficult" child is being sacrificed to the aim of making the parent feel better. (Usually a family who is signed with the service is already being accessed by professional help of some kind - this is just an adjunct).

Child abuse doesn't go away because somebody gets outraged and calls the media in - the more likely result of that is further isolation for the child. Child abuse is insidious and social and often multi-generational, and being outraged about it is perfectly natural, but it does nothing to fix the problem.

Here Endeth The Lesson. ;)
 
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Roxxsmom

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Reporting doesn't matter if there's no one to report the abuse. We in the U.S. have just recently been told of arguably the most atrocious case of child abuse in my lifetime, the Turpin family in California, who kept 13 children (some of adult age) imprisoned in their house for many many years, denied food, chained to beds, living in filth, while their pet dogs were kept in fine condition. Nobody knew about it until a 14-year-old daughter managed to escape through a window and tell neighbors.

Hardly a case that argues that humanity is not lost.

caw

This case turned my stomach, and it's not the first such case to surface with parents who home school and lock their kids away from the world. According to reports, some of those kids (I'm guessing the younger ones) may be developmentally damaged by their ordeal. People in the animal rescue community have a name for people who do this kind of thing with animals--hoarders.

Note that the authorities didn't find these kids at all, nor did the neighbors report them. It was a brave teenage girl who stole a cell phone and used it to dial 911, knowing that she was putting herself at risk for even more abuse.

I wrote my state assembly member and state senator asking them to please consider introducing or backing legislation that would mandate some oversight of home schoolers. There are other states that do this, so no reason why "progressive" CA can't. My state senator has already backed legislation that tightens vaccination requirements and closes the loopholes for personal belief (but not health exemptions) for kids attending public schools. I hope he can see that home schooled kids shouldn't be ignored by our child welfare laws either.

This is a different kind of case than the one in Hong Kong, though, as the little girl in the latter case was attending school, at least. It's great that this child finally got some justice, though it's sad and frustrating that it takes so long in so many cases. Two years is an eternity when you're a child. I hope she can be adopted by a family who will love her and provide her with the care every child deserves.
 
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neandermagnon

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Yeah, but the thing is you've said it and commented on it already. Not just you, of course - this is News being broadcast and repeated and That. Is. Not. Good. For. The. Child.

Take it from me - when concerned neighbors befriend the family and offer quiet help, everyone benefits. When outraged neighbours call the police, and the police leave - omg does that kid get a thrashing.

Times that by a huge amount once it gets broadcast.

I would be doing less to amplify the shame and more to give quiet support, in an ideal world. Because kids.

I agree with this. Most cases of child abuse the cause is that the parent(s) simply can't cope with the kids (and often with life in general), they snap and don't know how to impliment better strategies for dealing with the kids (often because that's how they were parented). Granted that doesn't explain particularly nasty cases like the recent one in the USA mentioned earlier in the thread, or Fred and Rose West who as well as being serial killers systematically abused their own children in horrific ways (and I think murdered one of them), but those cases aren't typical (thankfully!).

Things like unemployment, a lack of support from the community and extended family, financial difficulties and all kinds of things like that interplay and increase the risk of parents being unable to cope with the kids, and then the kids suffer. Just blaming the parents in situations like this won't help the kids or anyone else. A lot of families can be helped with the right kind of intervention and support. Not in every case - in some cases the best thing is to get the kids as far away from the family as possible and lock up the abusive parent(s). But "take the kids away and punish the parents!" - while it's an understandable knee-jerk reaction, it's not always the best for the kids or families.

----

On the topic of child protection, especially in light of recent threads about sexual abuse and harrassment, the NSPCC has a ton of parenting resources, info on child abuse and the causes of child abuse, recognising signs of abuse, resources for parents to protect their children from abuse (including sexual abuse) so here's a link: https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/ ...some of it is UK specific but a lot of it is general information that applies everywhere or stuff that can be easily adapted for other countries. The various helplines are UK specific but there may be equivalents in other countries.
 

neandermagnon

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Neander, I do like idea of the named child protection person in each school. That's a step in the very-much-right direction, I'd say. Obviously it requires an intelligent and engaged person, and for the child to be in school, but very much the right direction.

Homeschooled kids over here have people from the local education authority (LEA) to visit and check on them, to prevent cases like the USA one mentioned above. They're not like school inspectors - there's no legal requirement for homeschooling parents to follow the curriculum - they just make sure the kids are alive and well, and "homeschooling" isn't a cover for hiding abuse, indoctrination kids into extremism or other harmful things. I had to homeschool my kids for a short time (due to issues with moving, postcodes and no suitable school places) and got a visit from the LEA.

It's a bit of a political issue because homeschooling parents are worried that they'll be forced to follow a curriculum or judged unsuitable and forced to send their kids to school, but it's not supposed to be about that and when you read about cases like the recent USA one, you can see why some kind of system of visits and inspections is totally necessary.

There's also a very good program in some countries called Homestart, where a safe volunteer is matched with a family who might be displaying some problems to act as a kind of spare aunt. Basically, you turn up once a week, chat to the mum, play a bit with the kids and remember to ask how Jenny's science test went, and give all the positive feedback possible. Often the parent has a marked need of some positive support and feedback themselves, and the "difficult" child is being sacrificed to the aim of making the parent feel better. (Usually a family who is signed with the service is already being accessed by professional help of some kind - this is just an adjunct).

That's the usual approach here.

Homestart here doesn't just involve families already identified as having problems. There's a whole system of health visitors (a kind of nurse) and baby clinics where all parents get someone to speak to and who will put them in touch with various agencies when needed. Some of it is under the NHS and some under Homestart. And probably there are other agencies involved, seeing as nowadays there's a push for all the various agencies to work together and talk to each other. All kids here get monitored by this system - I think for the first two years of the child's life. They check they're meeting their developmental milestones and look out for medical and developmental issues as well as helping parents with practical and emotional issues and child protection, etc.
 
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Roxxsmom

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Homeschooled kids over here have people from the local education authority (LEA) to visit and check on them, to prevent cases like the USA one mentioned above. They're not like school inspectors - there's no legal requirement for homeschooling parents to follow the curriculum - they just make sure the kids are alive and well, and "homeschooling" isn't a cover for hiding abuse, indoctrination kids into extremism or other harmful things. I had to homeschool my kids for a short time (due to issues with moving, postcodes and no suitable school places) and got a visit from the LEA.

It varies greatly from state to state here. CA is one of the more lax ones, interestingly enough, but there is a lot of variation on everything from curriculum requirements and outcome assessment in various states, to visits from social workers or educators to make sure the kids are being treated well.

But even when a kid is attending school, people can miss some signs of abuse or neglect. For instance, some abusive parents are very clever about where they hit their kids, knowing that the bruises won't show in some places.

At the other end of the scale are kids who aren't abused but do get banged or scraped up sometimes because of their nature or activities, or is more seriously injured in a genuine accident.

They tend to err more on the side of caution with regards to following up borderline cases than they used to here, but it means some families who are perfectly fine will get embarrassing visits from protective services. This happened to some friends of mine when their dog bit their son and they had to take him to the ER for stitches (it wasn't a deep cut, but it was on his face, and they didn't want it to scar). It was very traumatizing for everyone when the social worker showed up later, even though nothing came of it (except the dog was banished to the outside for the rest of his life).

I don't know what kind of preventative programs they have in my state for families at risk. We do have a crisis nursery program where parents can take infants or small children and leave them for a certain period of time while they're dealing with a crisis that interferes with their ability to care for them.
 
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