Second Novel in a Series

xanaphia

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If I am writing the second novel in a series, and it starts in the middle of things. Literally starts the morning after Book 1 ends. That's reasonable, isn't it? Because of everything that was set up at the end of the first book? This might be some spillover of being slightly unsure of how to end book 1.

How have other authors handled this? How much space is needed between a book 1 and a book 2?
 

Sage

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There is no right answer to this. You can start one second after book 1 or you can start decades later. Do what your series needs.
 

Enlightened

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I'm unpublished, and never wrote a book before. With that said....

If you want to write a series, you should understand tricks authors use.

1. Chiastic structure (also known as chiasm or ring structure) is big for resolving issues invented in earlier books. Rowling used this for Harry Potter. George Lucas used this for Star Wars. It is used quite heavily for series. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiastic_structure

2. Gustav Freytag's dramatic structure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure

Note: Your novels can follow the Freytag's structure by placing them, in a grander scale, on the same pyramidal graphic.

There is much more to understand. You can do what I did and research for 6 months. I think searching through this forum is another viable option to learn some of these tricks. I think the two I named are absolutely critical for writing series.

My timeline is 25 years, set in 3 eras. There are breaks of at least 2 years between each era. Each era follows Freytag's structure with chiasm. I won't write book two unless book one sells. If it does well, I have lots to write in the future.

For you, breaks between books are up to you. It depends on how your story goes. Your chapter one, book one, can be world building and introductions. Chapter two can pick up many years later. Book two can do the same thing, or it can immediately pick up where book one ended. It depends on your story, chiasm, and so forth.

I'd wait for others to post, but these are points I would like to share on your topic.

Good luck. Writing a series is a daunting task, and it takes a lot of commitment.

Are you thinking a trilogy?
 
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xanaphia

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I already wrote a series. The first draft of a 300k piece is finished, and the second draft of book one is finished at 65k words. I wanted to start tackling the editing of book 2 while I await feedback from beta readers. The problem arose because the original piece wasn't written with the intention of turning it into a book. I see an arc already, but the book literally start with the MC waking up after the end of the events of book 1. (She was badly injured, but saved from the brink of death.)
 

Enlightened

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You get to play God, in a sense. You are the omnipotent "creator" of your environments, characters, timelines, and so forth. If book two starts immediately after book one ends, that is your decision. Go with it. It sounds like you know what you want to do.

For me, I won't write book two till I know I can sell book one. It looks like your series (outside of editing and re-writes) is complete. If you are writing the book for yourself, awesome! If you expect to pitch the book as a series, and you are unpublished, I wouldn't. Do the first book only. If it sells, release book two and so forth.

To add to my initial post.... If you want a more visual look of chiasm, you can see what Rowling did for Harry Potter: http://imgur.com/r/harrypotter/Zt7Mz

Here's something on ring structure (chiasmus) of Star Wars: http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ring-composition-chiasmus-hidden-artistry-star-wars-prequels/
 

xanaphia

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You get to play God, in a sense. You are the omnipotent "creator" of your environments, characters, timelines, and so forth. If book two starts immediately after book one ends, that is your decision. Go with it. It sounds like you know what you want to do.

For me, I won't write book two till I know I can sell book one. It looks like your series (outside of editing and re-writes) is complete. If you are writing the book for yourself, awesome! If you expect to pitch the book as a series, and you are unpublished, I wouldn't. Do the first book only. If it sells, release book two and so forth.

To add to my initial post.... If you want a more visual look of chiasm, you can see what Rowling did for Harry Potter: http://imgur.com/r/harrypotter/Zt7Mz

Here's something on ring structure (chiasmus) of Star Wars: http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ring-composition-chiasmus-hidden-artistry-star-wars-prequels/
Thank you for that, because the Wikipedia article made me even more confused. And I am now impressed with myself in that I did use this technique without realizing or intending to, as the structure of the third book mirrors (in reverse) the structure of the first. Apparently, my subconscious realized I was doing it because I even had the line "The path of redemption retreads old ground." Book two doesn't really fit the structure, but it does set the narrative for the turnabout.

I am still unsure if I am going to publish traditionally, or just self-publish at some point. Right now I am just focusing on making the story as good as it gets. I might be just looking for excuses to procrastinate.
 
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Enlightened

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If book two does not follow chiasm, your readers will know and question professionalism. If you really want to make it professional, you can make your original book 2 an "expanded universe" thing and re-write book two to fit chiasm. You can release book 2 as something on the side. This is what Star Wars: Rogue Squadron was.

Here are the 9 movies of the Star Wars "space opera," as Lucas called them. Follow the indentations of the S in Star wars titles to see the movies laid out in Freytag's structure using chiasm. The first four movies are the build up. Episode V is the height of action in the series. Episodes 6-9 are wind down and conclusion.

Star Wars: Episode I – The Phantom Menace
-----Star Wars: Episode II – Attack of the Clones
----------Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith
---------------Star Wars: Episode IV – A New Hope
--------------------Star Wars: Episode V – The Empire Strikes Back
---------------Star Wars: Episode VI – Return of the Jedi
----------Star Wars: Episode VII – The Force Awakens
-----Star Wars: Episode VIII – The Last Jedi
Star Wars: Episode IX - ???

If you just have three books, as long as 1 and 3 mirror, you are good.
 
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The Urban Spaceman

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Do the first book only. If it sells, release book two and so forth.

I would assume Book 1 is going to sell and be halfway through Book 2 by the time my agent asked whether I'd started on the script. But I like to think positive and be prepared. It might not sell now, but what about two years down the line? Or five? Or ten?
 

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Never make assumptions. You can have a killer MS and have a crap attitude (whereby no one wants to work with you). This is an example; I am not calling you someone with a crap attitude. Little things can sway decisions. I call these unknown variables.

My job is to make my MS as strong as possible, as is any writer. For me, my first book takes place in era II. I have all the books and chiasm ideated for era I (as per required backstory before I write book one, era II). I have books one, two, and their chiastic counters at the end of era II (chiastically) figured out (e.g. chiastic events, character evolutions, chapter outlines). I have the main storylines for the books without loose outlines for books 3 till the last two books of Era II. I can ideate how I want book 3 and its chiastic counter book in a matter of just days.

I am not worried about getting new books to the agent or publisher. I have enough pre-research and writing finished to feel confident. I just won't invest time until I know my first book does well or not. At the close of Feb 13, I will invest a total of 6 months into this project (before writing word one of MS one). I feel more comfortable telling agents/publishers I have the outlines ready, and I can have the next book by (some date agreed on).
 

xanaphia

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Except I can't see that working out, since book 2 contains much of the important character development that allows for the redemption narrative that dominates the third book. There are smaller chiasmuses between 1 and 2. I suppose I will work on it and see how it fits the big picture before worrying about making it a side story or scrapping it.
 

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xanaphia: IT sounds like you are in a good place. Run with it! Time for me to get some work done. Almost 1 AM and I did start work yet. I have two hours to get some work done before I call it a night. Take care!
 

Harlequin

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Series which are written together blow the metaphorical pants off series written sequentially. It may make *slightly* more monetary sense to write books sequentially but the books will be quantifiably better imo if written as a cohesive whole. The further I get into book 2, the more I'm revising book 1.

(Nb: This won't apply to series which are loosely connected or standalone, like detective stories.)

As far as sales go--if you want to be sensible with making money, don't write books! ;-) Because you likely will make a pittance the trade publishing route. Or if you must write, then you should be writing romance or YA, and churn the living hell out of it. Fantasy is a poor seller by comparison, and so is SF.

If you end up self publishing, having them all done in the series is basically a requirement (rapid release schedules.)

For the OP... Starting a sequel the day after sounds fine, I've read lots of books like that (and like them). Sounds like a tightly knit story (timewise).
 

The Urban Spaceman

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Series which are written together blow the metaphorical pants off series written sequentially. It may make *slightly* more monetary sense to write books sequentially but the books will be quantifiably better imo if written as a cohesive whole. The further I get into book 2, the more I'm revising book 1.

That's pretty much how I roll, too. I'm just starting book 3 of a fantasy trilogy* but I want to be halfway through that before I even think about querying.


* I started it about 5 years ago (or more) but put it aside to do other stuff^tm. Now, my writing has matured, so I'll have to go back and entirely re-write books 1 and 2 (which themselves took 2 years to complete), but that's okay even though the thought of re-writing my ginormous behemoths is kinda melting my brain.

In the grand scheme of writing, 6 months isn't really all that long. ;)
 

Harlequin

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Yeah, funny how your sense of time shifts after your start writing. Taking a couple years to do anything seemed crazy before. But not for books >.>

I'd advise against doing realms of lit agent research in advance of writing, too. By the time a book is written, rewritten xs 5, edited, beta'd, and polished or trunked, everything will be different.* Agents once open might be closed, or stop taking x genre. Vice versa. New rules might be in place. Publishers might have folded. Who knows.

*The process won't necessarily be faster through sheer effort of planning.
 
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The Urban Spaceman

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Indeed.

Anyhoo, on a slightly more on-topic note, I read on the forum... somewhere... last year, that unpublished writers embarking on the writing of series shouldn't* end their first book on a cliff-hanger (in case it does sell, but not well enough to warrant the sequels). Not sure whether that would affect your ending of book 1/start of book 2, xanaphia, but it might be worth keeping in mind if this 'saved from the brink of death' has a cliffy feel to it.


*It was an opinion, as everything is.
 
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cornflake

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If book two does not follow chiasm, your readers will know and question professionalism. I'd wager most readers have no idea what that is, same as most writers, heh. If you really want to make it professional, you can make your original book 2 an "expanded universe" thing and re-write book two to fit chiasm. You can release book 2 as something on the side. This is what Star Wars: Rogue Squadron was.

Here are the 9 movies of the Star Wars "space opera," as Lucas called them. Follow the indentations of the S in Star wars titles to see the movies laid out in Freytag's structure using chiasm. The first four movies are the build up. Episode V is the height of action in the series. Episodes 6-9 are wind down and conclusion.

Star Wars: Episode I – The Phantom Menace
-----Star Wars: Episode II – Attack of the Clones
----------Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith
---------------Star Wars: Episode IV – A New Hope
--------------------Star Wars: Episode V – The Empire Strikes Back
---------------Star Wars: Episode VI – Return of the Jedi
----------Star Wars: Episode VII – The Force Awakens
-----Star Wars: Episode VIII – The Last Jedi
Star Wars: Episode IX - ???

If you just have three books, as long as 1 and 3 mirror, you are good.

It's nice to lay out the SW movies to fit that, except they weren't written or conceived in that order, in any way, so I don't know how rearranging them is a demonstration of anything. I get he numbered them and redid the timeline or whatever (I don't do Star Wars, I've no idea), but he wasn't, certainly, originally planning that.

As to writing being symmetrical, sure, we teach that to second graders -- essays should have an intro and conclusion that mirror each other, hamburger essay writing, or hourglass essay writing, or whatever other name.

That doesn't mean there aren't successful works that don't do that. As long as it works, it works.

There is no single, or even more than one, rule of novel writing, besides that it has to work. Some people plan and outline and use this or that method. Some people do none of that. Both are successful if it works.
 

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I have no idea what chiasm is (and neither does my dictionary). Looking it up, I have to say that the only modern series I know that does this--or does it in a noticeable way--is Harry Potter.

There are pros and cons to writing sequels before you've sold book 1, and as long as you go in knowing them and make peace with them, you should do what you want.

Writing the full series (or part of it) in advance allows you to make sure that book 1 is set up for developments you weren't planning in later books. It means that if you sell book 1 and they say, "Write a series," you're already in the middle of it. If you love the characters and setting, it's nice to use that momentum and also to stay in their heads without breaking to do other stories. If you make changes to the MC's voice or your writing just generally improves, you can go back and fix book 1 to match later ones. If you're self-publishing, producing a series quickly is a better way to make money than putting out just one book.

On the con side, if you don't sell book 1 (assuming trade publishing), then you have all these later books that you probably can't sell either. You also might only sell book 1, not the sequels. I've had agents and editors ask for revisions that have completely changed any future book plans I had (i hadn't written a sequel yet in those cases), and I'd hate to get into a conflict between book 1 and the later ones if I already had a series set up. For self-publishing, I don't see any cons to writing the whole thing before publishing.

A long time ago I wrote a blog post on why I wrote a trilogy even though I knew all the reasons not to. My plan currently is to self-publish that trilogy, but the post is about trade publishing: https://sagelikethespice.wordpress....fore-publication-or-why-write-a-trilogy-sage/
 

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I have no idea what chiasm is (and neither does my dictionary). Looking it up, I have to say that the only modern series I know that does this--or does it in a noticeable way--is Harry Potter.

The member meant chiasmus; it's a rhetorical figure or literary pattern that's x-shaped.

Ask not what your country can do for you
ask what you can do for your country

The syntax positions of you and country are switched, so that if you draw a line from country to country, and you to you, the lines form an X.

Chi, the root of the word chiasmus, is the Greek name for the letter X.

Other examples:

But many that are first shall be last
and the last shall be first.

Never let a fool kiss you
or a kiss fool you

Chiasmus is a figure of balance and inversion, in that the two halves are balanced, but the syntax is inverted.
 
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Sage

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A ha! My dictionary does know that one :)

Is it common in series construction, though? I've definitely used that technique on a sentence or paragraph level, and I like to have story beginnings and endings mirror each other, though not necessarily with the inversion. It seems like a large undertaking to do a novel or a series that way, and I can't imagine that most authors make that specific an effort (especially as not everyone knows how many books their publisher will want them or allow them to publish).
 

The Urban Spaceman

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You learn something new every day :e2bear:

Edit:

A ha! My dictionary does know that one :)

Is it common in series construction, though? I've definitely used that technique on a sentence or paragraph level, and I like to have story beginnings and endings mirror each other, though not necessarily with the inversion. It seems like a large undertaking to do a novel or a series that way, and I can't imagine that most authors make that specific an effort (especially as not everyone knows how many books their publisher will want them or allow them to publish).

Yes, I wondered about that. I've been writing for years without any knowledge of of chiasmus, and now that I know its definition, I don't feel like it's going to change my writing in any way.
 
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Harlequin

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I do it, at least on a novel level, but I've consumed (sometimes force fed) a fair amount of classics (most of the ones listed in the wiki examples) so I am probably just copying what I have read. There's no set intention on my part. Curlz mentioned it being academic structure and that's true too.

I don't know, it seems easier to reuse the same path than to not. Bit I'm not published so there is that >.>

Trying to think of big name sff authors who do.
 
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sideshowdarb

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This

As far as sales go--if you want to be sensible with making money, don't write books! ;-)

And this

There are pros and cons to writing sequels before you've sold book 1, and as long as you go in knowing them and make peace with them, you should do what you want.

Write your heart. Don't worry about what sells/doesn't sell. I'm in the middle of writing a trilogy right now that just unfurled for me, in the process of writing. There was never any question of stopping. I think of it more and more as a single work, and this is what I want to see published, traditionally or otherwise.

As far as structure, do whatever the story needs or is telling you. If your character wakes up the next day or a few moments later, ok. That's interesting. So long as we're talking SW, the most recent film The Last Jedi picks up moments after the end of The Force Awakens. In previous films, you've had gaps of years and then decades.
 

cornflake

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A ha! My dictionary does know that one :)

Is it common in series construction, though? I've definitely used that technique on a sentence or paragraph level, and I like to have story beginnings and endings mirror each other, though not necessarily with the inversion. It seems like a large undertaking to do a novel or a series that way, and I can't imagine that most authors make that specific an effort (especially as not everyone knows how many books their publisher will want them or allow them to publish).

I don't think it is or that they do, save the general 'it all comes back around,' thing, which people often do in all sorts of things of varying length. I've known authors all my life, many with long publishing histories. None ever mentioned that one, heh.
 

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Series which are written together blow the metaphorical pants off series written sequentially. It may make *slightly* more monetary sense to write books sequentially but the books will be quantifiably better imo if written as a cohesive whole. The further I get into book 2, the more I'm revising book 1.

(Nb: This won't apply to series which are loosely connected or standalone, like detective stories.)

As far as sales go--if you want to be sensible with making money, don't write books! ;-) Because you likely will make a pittance the trade publishing route. Or if you must write, then you should be writing romance or YA, and churn the living hell out of it. Fantasy is a poor seller by comparison, and so is SF.

If you end up self publishing, having them all done in the series is basically a requirement (rapid release schedules.)

For the OP... Starting a sequel the day after sounds fine, I've read lots of books like that (and like them). Sounds like a tightly knit story (timewise).

My first book I intended to be just a standalone work - but I got so many requests via email, FB, etc. asking: what happened next?, that I went ahead and wrote the second book.

My current project I see as a series of 5 novels (yeah, I may be biting off more than I can chew... but that's kinda what I always do). Each book in the series builds on the history of what came before, but (hopefully) won't rely on it. It's SciFi about the extinction of humanity.
The first book concerning itself with a split - a large part of humanity takes off into space.
The second centers around the ones that escaped.
The third book is about those who stayed.
The Fourth starts the process of bringing the two halves together again.
And the Fifth is about the extinction event, and what comes afterward.

I should follow Harlequin's good advice and write the whole darned thing, then release it... the problem is that I'm an impatient sort, so I probably won't. I do think that the the way the story is parsed out, makes each work fairly independent of the rest. We'll see how it goes.

There's been a lot of talk here about Preludes, would you consider using a device such as this to catch readers up - if they decide to read book 3 before the others?
 
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Harlequin

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Lol well you don't HAVE to by any means! I'm just being grumpy and pushing back against the trend I've seen of "only write one of a series". It wouldn't work *for me* because I pants with little plotting and the story would inevitably evolve over a series (and is). Also because my narrative arc is tightly knit, timewise, with little gap between books (so far).