Newbie trying to write sword fighting- help appreciated

Kiteya

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So I've got a bit of a problem- I'm writing my mc fighting a minor character. The thing is, I'm new to writing fight scenes period. I've got a little bit of an idea, but finding resources on sword fighting and writing it is tricky, and harder than I thought. Does anyone have any tips on writing sword fights? Thank you so so much!!!! I suppose I'm looking for tips on pacing, how much action to include versus character's thoughts, and how to show progression in a fight scene, so it's not boring, and it looks like there's actually a level of danger. Thanks again!

- ps. also sadly, I can't take sword fighting lessons cause I'm in school. but thanks for the suggestion!
 
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blackcat777

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Read a lot to get a feel for how different authors do things, because there are so many ways to tackle the issue. Most recently, I enjoyed some Joe Abercrombie, and would recommend First Law if you haven't read it.

One thing I like is introducing the weapon - giving the reader a chance to "get a feel" for the weapon before it's introduced in combat.

Think about engaging all five senses, and how the environment presents challenges to the fight.

Also think about the stakes - what a character has to lose, both tangibly and internally. (I'm not suggesting to make your characters overly brooding, but the before/after of battle should definitely touch on this.)

Do you have onlookers? How do they react? Can the battle wreak havoc on its immediate surroundings? (I love when that happens, it's metal. ;) )

What is the reputation of the person your character has to fight? Can you build this up before the fight to create suspense? I love adversaries that you hear about and hear about so you have to IMAGINE how fierce they are, before they even hit the page.
 
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Roxxsmom

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Read a lot to get a feel for how different authors do things, because there are so many ways to tackle the issue. Most recently, I enjoyed some Joe Abercrombie, and would recommend First Law if you haven't read it.

I agree. I think he does action and combat scenes fairly well, though it's certainly possible to write them effectively with less "splatter" than he often employs. Not that there's anything wrong with splatter if that floats your boat, but spitting blood as you doe and picking brains off your vest after a fight have to be the focus, at least. I think he does a good job of capturing the confusion and chaos that is (I"m guessing, since I've never been in one myself) part of a battle or fight. He's good with emotions and with varying the pace and focus to differentiate between action packed vs more thoughtful scenes.

Bernard Cornwell is a historical fiction writer who is known for writing good battle and fight scenes, so he's another one to check out. I think Abercrombie (or maybe it was GRRM) mentioned that they learned a lot about writing battle scenes by reading his books.

And if these writers don't do it for you, picking up some of your favorite books by writers you think write riveting battle and combat scenes, then rereading them with a special eye to how they constructed these sequences, is a good way to go. There's more than one way to go about these things,

Also, watching well-choreographed fight scenes in movies can be helpful too.

Some of the same techniques also apply to writing other fast-paced action scenes, such as sports sequences.
 
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lonestarlibrarian

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Have you ever fenced, or done martial arts, or anything like that? It uses a specific part of your brain. A lot of times, when you're a beginner fighter, your brain will see an opening, and it will vanish before you can tell your body to take advantage of it. When you're a more experienced fighter, you're able to react instinctively, because your muscles know what to do in a given situation.

There's a rhythm to fencing, or swordfighting, or whatever. The old fencing manuals would call it the "tempo"-- I don't know if they still call it that. Basically, there's an action, and a reaction. You want to be the one making the action. But if you're the one reacting, you don't want to only just react; you want to respond not only with a defensive action, but follow up with an offensive response. Because there's no way to attack someone without giving them an opening to attack you in some way. This can be minimized if, say, you have exceptional height/reach over your opponent, or exceptional speed, or whatever.

But all of that stuff is boring to read about, and swordfights are exciting. You want quick, short sentences. You want energy and action. You want to throw in a little of the mental, and a little of the physical, but you don't want to slog down through choreographing every movement made.

See if you know anyone IRL or on the internet who fights in one way or another, and get them to describe a memorable fight to you. What imagery do you see from their description, and how can elements be translated to fit into your WIP?
 

CameronJohnston

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Boiling anger. Cut. Thrust. Fear and parry. Short, punchy sentences of action with some kind of an emotional response (fear for their life or anger) seems to work well for me. Don't try and over describe the exact sequence of the fight, but don't leave it as a boring 'they fought and he killed X' either. There are plenty of HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) videos on Youtube that will get you started with some of the historical techniques for various weapons.
 

themindstream

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I'm gonna plug How to Fight Write here as a resource I've found useful. If you can get any in-person experience (in a controlled environment like a martial arts club or boxing gym) I also recommend it (though it's not necessary). My (novice level) experience with Aikido has proven useful in that regard. Most mano e mano martial disciplines share a basic foundation of principles: technique, timing, movement, physical and mental conditioning.
 

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You may see if there's a local chapter of the Society for Creative Anachronism SCA.org. I've got a barony in my town that has a large field of both heavy fighters and rapier style. The heavy types wear armor and beat on each other with rattan sticks (bruises are compulsory), while the rapier group have more traditional fencing gear. Either group are usually willing to help those interested in getting in some loaner gear. The importance of footwork becomes painfully clear in the first two or three attempts. It's also a place to meet fellow history geeks that craft all sorts of things using antiquated techniques.
 

indianroads

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I had a fight scene in my last novel between the MC - with two kabar knives vs a kendo/iaido master fighting with a katana. It turned out well I think. Anyway, it was an interesting paradigm because in combat, whoever controls the space between the fighters almost always wins, so the combat revolved around the differing lengths of the weapons and their ability to command that median space.
 
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Manuel Royal

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You may see if there's a local chapter of the Society for Creative Anachronism SCA.org. I've got a barony in my town that has a large field of both heavy fighters and rapier style. The heavy types wear armor and beat on each other with rattan sticks (bruises are compulsory), while the rapier group have more traditional fencing gear. Either group are usually willing to help those interested in getting in some loaner gear. The importance of footwork becomes painfully clear in the first two or three attempts. It's also a place to meet fellow history geeks that craft all sorts of things using antiquated techniques.
Ditto. And while it makes a difference what kind of historical/fantasy milieu you're writing (Are swords weapons of soldiers or civilians? Is there armor involved? Etc.) there are some universals. Like, if you're inside your opponent's range, you're either attacking, actively defending, or soon to be dead.
 

BethS

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So I've got a bit of a problem- I'm writing my mc fighting a minor character. The thing is, I'm new to writing fight scenes period. I've got a little bit of an idea, but finding resources on sword fighting and writing it is tricky, and harder than I thought. Does anyone have any tips on writing sword fights? Thank you so so much!!!! I suppose I'm looking for tips on pacing, how much action to include versus character's thoughts, and how to show progression in a fight scene, so it's not boring, and it looks like there's actually a level of danger.

To get you started, try this: Writing Fight Scenes by Marie Brennan. A bargain on Kindle right now. She's an author and fight choreographer and does martial arts and I think fences with a rapier. Tips on sword-fighting are included, but there's lots of other good stuff, too, about what goes into writing an effective fight scene.
 
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Clovitide

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I read to see how a couple of books do it and actually stole one such method. the character was basically a contortionist and the author used one line: Punch. Roll. Uppercut. Leap on the wall. Balance, knee up, drop.

And added in bits of narration and thought so it never got too repetitive. I enjoyed it. The one thing I try to look out for is to make sure it's all understandable. I don't know how many times I read a piece of action and have absolutely no idea what is going on. But I also don't want a play-by-play. It's tricky, I hope you figure it out!
 

TSJohnson

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This is just my very humble opinion, but most martial artists and historical sword fighting enthusiasts have no idea what it is to fight with a real weapon and for your life. The second point I wished to make, is that we are conditioned from very early on with choreographed movie fights and book fights, which are quite far from a real fight. The third is, that fighting is also has a societal element to it, and is subject to all kinds of rules not immediately understandable unless you study history of combat. For example duels in renaissance Europe vs. combat during warring states period Japan were subject to different societal rules and understanding of what constituted as "bravery" and how much this notion of bravery affected the actual fighting, if at all. Aesthetics also play a part in how fighting schools developed in different parts of the world, and like the old maxim goes, you fight like you train.

So in a word, I'd definitely not take sword fighting lessons from any medievalists or martial artists, but rather focus on the common depictions and expectations of readers. But this is just me, and many people here seem to disagree with this sentiment.
 

themindstream

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This is just my very humble opinion, but most martial artists and historical sword fighting enthusiasts have no idea what it is to fight with a real weapon and for your life. The second point I wished to make, is that we are conditioned from very early on with choreographed movie fights and book fights, which are quite far from a real fight. The third is, that fighting is also has a societal element to it, and is subject to all kinds of rules not immediately understandable unless you study history of combat. For example duels in renaissance Europe vs. combat during warring states period Japan were subject to different societal rules and understanding of what constituted as "bravery" and how much this notion of bravery affected the actual fighting, if at all. Aesthetics also play a part in how fighting schools developed in different parts of the world, and like the old maxim goes, you fight like you train.

So in a word, I'd definitely not take sword fighting lessons from any medievalists or martial artists, but rather focus on the common depictions and expectations of readers. But this is just me, and many people here seem to disagree with this sentiment.

Actually, I don't think anything you've said is wrong, they're all good points. I just disagree with your conclusion. I would say that psychological, societal and aesthetic considerations are also important. But a grasp of fight mechanics and an idea of how they feel can give you a structure to hang your scene on (and reduce the risk of throwing more savvy readers out of their immersion because they realize your characters are doing something that couldn't possibly work, unless that flair is integral to your setting as in wuxia-style martial arts films/books.)
 

badducky

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I don't understand why being in school is a limitation to taking swordfighting lessons.

Martial arts are widely available. Many schools offer things like wrestling, basketball, football...

Attend a sporting event and make a five minute recording. Go home and write out what happened, one step at a time, and see if you can turn that small segment into a compelling "scene". Try the same with UFC fights or boxing matches.

Technical knowledge is awesome if you can get it, but the general reader will not have that technical knowledge. So, it's more about trying to communicate kinetics to the reader.

Good luck!
 

CameronJohnston

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This is just my very humble opinion, but most martial artists and historical sword fighting enthusiasts have no idea what it is to fight with a real weapon and for your life. The second point I wished to make, is that we are conditioned from very early on with choreographed movie fights and book fights, which are quite far from a real fight. The third is, that fighting is also has a societal element to it, and is subject to all kinds of rules not immediately understandable unless you study history of combat. For example duels in renaissance Europe vs. combat during warring states period Japan were subject to different societal rules and understanding of what constituted as "bravery" and how much this notion of bravery affected the actual fighting, if at all. Aesthetics also play a part in how fighting schools developed in different parts of the world, and like the old maxim goes, you fight like you train.

So in a word, I'd definitely not take sword fighting lessons from any medievalists or martial artists, but rather focus on the common depictions and expectations of readers. But this is just me, and many people here seem to disagree with this sentiment.

I'd have to disagree to some extent. At least learn enough not to make howling mistakes. For example, massive overhead axe-chopping swings (daft)with super-heavy and slow swords (that don't exist as real weapons of war) that leaves the body totally exposed to a quick thrust, possibly after a dodge. If you make mistakes like that you'll lose all credibility and immersion with a lot of readers.
 

Justobuddies

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I've found that my experiences fighting with sticks has given me a bit of firsthand experience that lets me connect, I think, a bit more with readers. The trade off of using more armor to move slower becomes very real when in the middle of a column charge, guess who goes first. Weapon choice and variety in skirmish combat suddenly matters when commanding a small unit. Flashy moves are more likely get you killed, period.

In days of sword and shield every advantage also had a disadvantage. Metal armor protects better, but costs movement. Shields provide amazing cover, but takes away a good half the field of vision. Pole arms worked wonders from behind a shield wall, but were worthless once your enemy was inside its range. Every attack leaves your sword arm exposed to some sort of riposte.

Having some practical experience helps the author put their characters skin in the game and communicates real risk to the reader.

ETA*
Do some research on the weapons your characters use. Most often the weapons had a single purpose, like the great sword (German Zweihanders) were developed to take on formations of pikemen.
 
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TSJohnson

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I'd have to disagree to some extent. At least learn enough not to make howling mistakes. For example, massive overhead axe-chopping swings (daft)with super-heavy and slow swords (that don't exist as real weapons of war) that leaves the body totally exposed to a quick thrust, possibly after a dodge. If you make mistakes like that you'll lose all credibility and immersion with a lot of readers.

I think this actually goes well in line with my advice of not delving into martial arts that much, but rather hitting the books for research and finding something in the literary scene that one finds compelling.

Learning sword fighting to a respectable level that you can actually get something out of it to your novel is such a long process that without any other enthusiasm for it, it's a bit too much dedication (unless you are the Daniel Day-Lewis of writing). Even if you learn basics of, say, from Fiore dei Liberi or Liechtenauer, it will take you several months, before you truly understand the role of footwork as a part of the totality of fencing. It's way more easy to understand the basics (like the historical accuracy issues you mentioned) from books rather than from actually practising. Or maybe I'm just a slow learner, but that's at least my experience.

Any way, it's a bit of a moot point, as the original poster expanded they can't really take lessons.
 

SillyLittleTwit

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I actually disagree with much of the advice thus far.

- Learning actual sword-fighting, and the associated terms, will not by itself lead to a well-written fight scene. Readers don't want a whole heap of jargon and technical language thrust (hah) at them, nor do they want a blow by blow description of action - they want the actual thoughts and emotions running through the characters' heads (in that respect, a fight scene is like a sex scene - don't describe the penis and the vagina, describe how the people involved feel).
- You are a writer. That means the golden rule is bluff - convincing the reader you know what you're talking about is more important than actually knowing what you are talking about. Describing individual bits of action *without context*, then showing the action succeed or fail, will convince the reader you know what you're talking about.

For example:

Bob flicked his wrist, and Martin's sword went sailing out of his hand, clattering against the wall.
"Shit," said Martin.

No context needed, and we've established that Bob is an excellent swordsman.
 

Putputt

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I agree. I think he does action and combat scenes fairly well, though it's certainly possible to write them effectively with less "splatter" than he often employs. Not that there's anything wrong with splatter if that floats your boat, but spitting blood as you doe and picking brains off your vest after a fight have to be the focus, at least. I think he does a good job of capturing the confusion and chaos that is (I"m guessing, since I've never been in one myself) part of a battle or fight. He's good with emotions and with varying the pace and focus to differentiate between action packed vs more thoughtful scenes.

Thirding Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. I think he's possibly my favorite author when it comes to battle scenes. It's been years since I read his books, but I still remember how breathless the battles left me.

Also, you're in luck, because I came across this on Twitter, and it's wonderfully informative. It's about sword-fighting while wearing a dress, but covers all sorts of things, including movement.
 

badducky

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I'd have to disagree to some extent. At least learn enough not to make howling mistakes. For example, massive overhead axe-chopping swings (daft)with super-heavy and slow swords (that don't exist as real weapons of war) that leaves the body totally exposed to a quick thrust, possibly after a dodge. If you make mistakes like that you'll lose all credibility and immersion with a lot of readers.

The people who read books about sword-fighting often know a thing or two about sword-fighting.

I was also thinking of the Swordspoint series by Ellen Kushner and Django Wexler's epics as excellent reference for two different ways of writing about armed conflict.

Frankly, the greatest book ever written, IMHO, to learn about writing violence (and it's really a lot more fun and operatic than it's reputation!) is War & Peace. Get a good, modern translation and get excellent written examples of every form of man's violence against man from Cossack raids to pistol duels to massive troop movements.
 

konstantineblacke

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I usually turn to Youtube when it comes to things like this. I'm sure there would be some tutorials on there about styles of sword-fighting. :)
 

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I just read Marie Brennan's Writing Fight Scenes and it broke my four-month battle block.
 

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I love writing fight scenes. If they’re not exciting to write, they’re probably not exciting to read, though.

There are two ways fight scenes usually go wrong: the author loses track of the choreography or the dramatization goes way over the top. Insert protagonist jumping a shark.

Blade based weapon systems have quick fights. Bloody fights. Everyone bleeds. Armor makes a difference, but there’s ways around that, too.

The author’s job is to combine sufficient realism with enough drama to hook the reader and suspend disbelief.

If you can’t join HEMA and you’ve exhausted Youtube, grab a friend and act it out. It may feel corny, but seeing it first hand will open up a realm of possibilities. Bonus points if you can get two friends to act it while you watch.