The Problem in Gymnastics

This is a really good question. I've never done gymnastics either.

One thought I had is that women gymnasts tend to be really young when they start training. Every all-around-champions in the Olympics in for world-class competition after 1972 has been in her teens. This might make them easier to victimize and cow? These girls have been training diligently under adult supervision for years and have been socialized since they were little to do what their coaches etc. tell them to do. They have to trust their coaches and doctors to be successful as gymnasts, and starting the sport so young may mean they have no perspective on what is and isn't normal in a relationship with an adult who isn't one's parent. At least not until the abuse becomes blatant.

It's a huge privilege to be able to compete at this level, and the window of opportunity is very short. These athletes probably don't want to jeopardize their chances by getting involved in a lengthy legal battle while they are training.

Also, there's the whole dynamic we've seen with lucrative sports programs with corruption, because women's gymnastics is a popular sport at the Olympics, and there seems to be quite a bit of money in it. So are we seeing the worse possible confluence between the abuses found sometimes in youth sports and the looking the other way and sweeping unacceptable behavior under the rug we often see with lucrative college or professional programs?

If a coach (or doctor, evidently) is working out well for a program, the powers that be may be reluctant to rock the boat.

Just want to say that I remember from high school girls on the gymnastics team rolling thier eyes about a skeevy coach. He would be 'gropey' when he was supposed to be, for example, guiding someone through a move. I say rolling thier eyes, because it was half complaint/voicing frustation about the unpleasant situation and partly an 'if you don't laugh you'll cry' kind of thing. There was a sense back then that this is a situation that you are just stuck with. & maybe some fear of 'ratting him out' to the other adults.

Do we actually need little girls and boys to be doing gymnastics? (would be my question).

I'm not downplaying the reach of this in gymnastics, or the abuse of the women and girls that's happened at anyone's hands, or the volume of Nasser's victim pool, but this is not unique to gymnastics as a sport, nor are some of the contributing factors Roxx mentions unique to gymnastics. This has also been a recognized issue in elite US swimming.

Graham James abused elite hockey playing boys over decades, and there are certainly stories about similar abuses by others.

There's abuse in the world of ballet, figure skating, etc. Where it can happen, it will.

I'm glad you moved this, Xelebes. Even though the judge mentioned the #MeToo movement, this is way bigger. This is Penn St/Jerry Sandusky, Catholic Priest-level stuff.

Gymnasts used to be a little older than they are now. Olga Korbut was 18 when she won gold, and I remember being shocked by Nadia Comaneci being only 15. I don't think the US allowed such young women at the time. Gymnastics and women's ice skating have aged down, and organized up. So these...girls, really...live away from home for the purposes of winning an Olympic medal (and the $$$ that comes with it, which, let's face it, isn't the *gymnast's* goal but her parents/handlers) at a very young age. I remember it being a condemnation that the USSR "plucked promising kids from their homes to be Olympians, housed institutionally." Propaganda on our end, no doubt, but it was propaganda eschewing the exploitation. And yet now, here we are.

These girls are such easy prey. They're young, they are truly, athletically, special, and they're in a sport where injuries are both rife, and can end your dream in one torn ligament. Doctors are saviors.

I find the whole system horrifying, just as I did when my kids got into the soccer system. I was cajoled by coaches to put my kids in a $2500/yr (base) program when they were 11, with the implied incentive of a college scholarship. My kids were NOT special, and only a tiny number of universities offer full soccer scholarships. For the fees I'd have paid, I could have paid college tuition myself. All so "coaches" and "trainers" can profit. The number of gymnasts that go through the mill generates millions of dollars, and while, yes, lots of kids enjoy the sport, it's often a hunting ground for "talent." These systems are too often set up for the benefit of the adults running them. To profit, exploit, wallow in reflected glory, and yes, to sexually predate on the youngsters. /rant (sorry)

What was going on at MSU is MUCH wider than the gymnastics scandal, BTW. The stuff coming out now about the football program, and all the other athletes from all the other sports that were funneled to Nassar, should really end that school's athletic program altogether. And any other school operating in a similar unethical pattern, too.

Roxxsmom said:

These girls have been training diligently under adult supervision for years and have been socialized since they were little to do what their coaches etc. tell them to do. They have to trust their coaches and doctors to be successful as gymnasts, and starting the sport so young may mean they have no perspective on what is and isn't normal in a relationship with an adult who isn't one's parent. At least not until the abuse becomes blatant.

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Check out Joan Ryan's Little Girls in Pretty Boxes, which is about what gymnasts and figure skaters go through as part of their training and competition. Apparently one coach routinely heaped verbal abuse on gymnasts if they gained any weight (especially when they went through puberty), calling them fat cows and pregnant goats. The coach had such a good reputation for producing champions that the girls and their parents endured it.

So yeah, I'm not surprised that sexual abuse occurs. Some of these girls live away from home, and some even live with their coaches. They're young and malleable, they're focused on achieving a difficult goal (maybe because their parents have mortgaged the house in the hopes of producing an Olympian), they're in competition with each other. It's not exactly conducive to speaking up against powerful adults, especially if there's no indication you'll be believed and supported.

Gymnastics aside, which have been exploiting young girls for decades, imo, youth sports are over the top these days. Little boys playing football given what we know about traumatic brain injury? And even “gentler” sports like soccer and softball can injure growing bodies when kids are training like adult athletes. Sports are great, but it seems they’ve ceased to be regarded as hobbies and social endeavors, but as incredibly serious and demanding occupations, both in terms of time and money, even for kids who are unlikely to ever be “elite” in their sports.

It does set up a situation where abuse, both mental and physical, is very easy.

regdog said:

That could be asked of any sport, musical instrument, etc. .

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No, I don't think I'd agree with that. The elite sort of gymnastics discussed in the articles is predicated on keeping a human body from growing and maturing normally: there's nothing about music that insists on that, that I can think of. It's more like ballet, perhaps - except that ballet usually doesn't require quite so much success at such a very young age, and has less of a competitive element to it.

mccardey said:

No, I don't think I'd agree with that. The elite sort of gymnastics discussed in the articles is predicated on keeping a human body from growing and maturing normally: there's nothing about music that insists on that, that I can think of. It's more like ballet, perhaps - except that ballet usually doesn't require quite so much success at such a very young age, and has less of a competitive element to it.

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It does not have less of a competitive element, heh. It generally does require the 'success' -- if you don't have the feet, if you're not in a good school, you're generally not going anyplace. There are Copeland-like exceptions, which people talk about endlessly because they're exceptions, same as there are NHL stars who grew up playing street hockey in midtown Manhattan, but in a general sense, you don't start either of those things by kindergarten, often with good teachers, you're pretty sunk.

mccardey said:

No, I don't think I'd agree with that. The elite sort of gymnastics discussed in the articles is predicated on keeping a human body from growing and maturing normally: there's nothing about music that insists on that, that I can think of. It's more like ballet, perhaps - except that ballet usually doesn't require quite so much success at such a very young age, and has less of a competitive element to it.

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I don't think there is anything special about gymnastics, per se, that germinates this predatory behavior. All that is required, it seems, is an environment where young people are subject to the direction of adults (usually male) in circumstances lacking proper supervision. Think of the recent scandals involving pedophile priests in the Roman Catholic church, or the scandal that ultimately snared the illustrious Warren Jeffs of the Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints. In summary, all that is required is a predator and prey.

caw

blacbird said:

I don't think there is anything special about gymnastics, per se, that germinates this predatory behavior. All that is required, it seems, is an environment where young people are subject to the direction of adults (usually male) in circumstances lacking proper supervision. Think of the recent scandals involving pedophile priests in the Roman Catholic church, or the scandal that ultimately snared the illustrious Warren Jeffs of the Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints. In summary, all that is required is a predator and prey.

caw

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Yes, of course. I'm just always disturbed by the fact that gymnastics requires small bodies to stay small and yet perform extreme feats of strength in competition with other small bodies. It seems different to me than even ballet, which is not just about points and win/lose, but is also about expression and art, not just strength and control - even though, as Cornflake said, like anything else reaching the elite will require a degree of competition. I think it's important to be aware that sexual abuse thrives where physical abuse is normalised - and it's certainly being normalised when very little kids are taught to ignore their own safety signals in deference to a highly goal-oriented adult.

regdog said:

Top level competitive women's gymnastics wasn't always the tiny, pixie sport. It gravitated that way after Nadia Comaneci in Montreal. To that point, most top level female gymnasts were in their late teens to early twenties. Nadia was fourteen. It was then advertisers had the "A-Ha" moment of cute little pixies endorsing their products. Gymnastic Federations also saw the potential payday of huge endorsements and sponsors.


Once sports get to the top tier levels it's all about the money

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Yes, exactly. I remember when it changed - which is really what my comment was aimed at - clumsily.

regdog said:

Top level competitive women's gymnastics wasn't always the tiny, pixie sport. It gravitated that way after Nadia Comaneci in Montreal. To that point, most top level female gymnasts were in their late teens to early twenties. Nadia was fourteen. It was then advertisers had the "A-Ha" moment of cute little pixies endorsing their products. Gymnastic Federations also saw the potential payday of huge endorsements and sponsors.


Once sports get to the top tier levels it's all about the money

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This is very true. The data on the "all around" Olympic champions in women's gymnastics shows a sharp break in 1976, with Nadia's (who was 14). Before that, they were much older. In 1952, the women's all-around champion was even 30! Nadia definitely changed the sport and what the judges were looking for in a performance from women. Men's gymnastics, however, continues to be more strength based, as the guys are still in their twenties.
Men and women gymnasts don't perform the same routines either. Women compete on four apparatuses, while men compete on six, and even the floor exercises and vault, which are common to both, are done very differently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnastics_all-around_champions_by_age

As an aside, women competing in the same sport as men, but in fewer events or within different parameters, is pretty common in the Olympics. For instance, in shooting (a sport where men and women could ostensibly compete directly against one another, and actually do in some venues outside the Olympics), the genders are still separated and men also get to compete in more events.

Here are some interesting data about the ages of competitors in other sports, such as swimming. Overall, among all Olympic sports, there was a downward trend in the 70s and early 80s (average age around 22 across all sports), but the overall age of Olympians has climbed since then (to around 25 in 2012, the last year shown in this article). Of course, it varies greatly by sport. Some marathoners have been in their 40s. Equestrians (the human members of their team--the horses aren't colts and fillies either, some even being well into their teens) average in their 30s. With some sports, a top athlete may participate in multiple Olympic games, starting very young and going until they are in their thirties.

https://www.si.com/edge/2016/08/11/rio-2016-olympics-age-young-old-athletes.

Women's gymnastics is an outlier, but there are teenaged participants in other sports.

I think a big part of the problem is nobody listened to them when they did complain.

Now with social media and massive support things are finally changing.....and it's about time.

On a bit of a separate note, I'm disgusted health care workers failed these Michigan girls. We need to do more when educating nurses and medical assistants to report doctors who don't require a chaperone when examining or treating vulnerable patients.

It's part of the nursing curriculum that one learns to report suspected child or elderly abuse. The licensing board encourages us to report impaired doctors and nurses.

It's time to include in basic nursing education reporting potential or suspicious sexual abuse and/or inappropriate care such as not adhering to the standard that physicians don't examine certain patients alone.

MaeZe said:

On a bit of a separate note, I'm disgusted health care workers failed these Michigan girls. We need to do more when educating nurses and medical assistants to report doctors who don't require a chaperone when examining or treating vulnerable patients.

It's part of the nursing curriculum that one learns to report suspected child or elderly abuse. The licensing board encourages us to report impaired doctors and nurses.

It's time to include in basic nursing education reporting potential or suspicious sexual abuse and/or inappropriate care such as not adhering to the standard that physicians don't examine certain patients alone.

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I was thinking that very thing. Most doctors have an assistant or a nurse in the room when doing internal exams, especially on young girls. The first time I encountered that was when I was 19 and had a man doctor do a pap...he brought in a nurse with him which I was surprised by at first since I'd never had a doctor before him bring in somebody but I was thankful she was there and it made me feel at ease...not that I didn't trust the doctor, I did but it made a difference having her there.

MaeZe said:

On a bit of a separate note, I'm disgusted health care workers failed these Michigan girls. We need to do more when educating nurses and medical assistants to report doctors who don't require a chaperone when examining or treating vulnerable patients.

It's part of the nursing curriculum that one learns to report suspected child or elderly abuse. The licensing board encourages us to report impaired doctors and nurses.

It's time to include in basic nursing education reporting potential or suspicious sexual abuse and/or inappropriate care such as not adhering to the standard that physicians don't examine certain patients alone.

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I don't know about Michigan, but in CA, medical professionals, educators and others are mandated reporters. That means that if there is evidence that would suggest to a reasonably observant and informed person that a minor is being abused, and they fail to report it, then they have some liability.

And even when a victim isn't a minor, if someone you work with is abusing someone, and the victim reports the abuse to you, it's just wrong, morally and (I imagine) legally not to follow through. I don't get how these "investigations" kept exonerating this monster.

I'm disgusted that the complicity and lack of concern appears to have gone all the way up to the top at the university too.

Roxxsmom said:

I don't know about Michigan, but in CA, medical professionals, educators and others are mandated reporters. That means that if there is evidence that would suggest to a reasonably observant and informed person that a minor is being abused, and they fail to report it, then they have some liability.

And even when a victim isn't a minor, if someone you work with is abusing someone, and the victim reports the abuse to you, it's just wrong, morally and (I imagine) legally not to follow through. I don't get how these "investigations" kept exonerating this monster.

I'm disgusted that the complicity and lack of concern appears to have gone all the way up to the top at the university too.

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I'm pretty sure we are all mandated to report; if there is a state that doesn't have such a regulation, I'd be surprised.

But I can't recall any formal education to look for and report sexual abuse. I would know to do it, but I have decades of experience. I'd like to see reporting potential sexual abuse by the professional added formally to standard curriculums.

Sure, if one saw it, hopefully one would report it. But I had formal education in how to recognize child abuse, for example. How is it medical assistants working with this man didn't know he should not be alone with these girls? I'm appalled but not surprised that this wasn't common sense. If it was added to formal education, it could make a difference.