What does the general public think Urban Fantasy is about?

SimaLongfei

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I was having a conversation with a friend the other day that gave me pause. She said she hated the Urban Fantasy genre. This hit me with a shock, since the idea of Urban Fantasy always struck me with a giddy interest. You see, I always thought of Urban Fantasy as things like The Dresden Files, The Iron Druid, or American Gods. Wizards getting by as PIs in Chicago. Gods working quietly in funeral homes. College campus legends and traditions about the local park secretly being about avoiding fae abduction. The melding of modern culture and ancient myths fascinates me as a reader.

When I asked her more about it, she brought up disliking the books about girls smooching werewolves and vampires, with an implication that she isn't simply referring to the Twilight Saga, but a much broader trend. The remark made me question my understanding of the genre. Is Urban Fantasy the same as Paranormal Romance to most people? Is what I'm actually interested in just regular ol' Fantasy? How do you understand where these genres break down?

Yeah, I know that genre classification is a very messy beast, at the best of days. Here's to hoping this conversation goes somewhere other than technicalities and exceptions.
 

Harlequin

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Yeah, it was American Gods when I was a teen, but it's changed now.

It's become a sort of pseudo noir genre (good) frequently inhabited with supernatural creatures (think Grimm, the TV show). Meanwhile AMerican Gods is now magical realism or some crap?

Idk. I think my current wip would have gotten shelved as urban fa back in the day but I'll be querying it as speculative fiction for marketing reasons (it would look out of place atm I think).
 

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I know my first gut response to ‘urban fantasy’ is ‘hot female protagonist has sex with vampires’ which is a trifle ridiculous given that most of the UF I’ve read is more ‘fairies live in your bars and alleys’ but it IS my first response.
 

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When I asked her more about it, she brought up disliking the books about girls smooching werewolves and vampires...
Is Urban Fantasy the same as Paranormal Romance to most people?.
Smooching is part of life ;), so I'd expect to see it in all genres but if I'm choosing between books, then I'd expect UF to have less focus on smooching than PR. In UF there should be some other major issue to resolve, too. Maybe it's your friend's personal idea about what's what, and not a genre issue. It's easy to get confused if in the shop those share a bookcase and it's labelled UF, but PR is also shelved there. :Shrug:
 

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Smooching is part of life ;), so I'd expect to see it in all genres but if I'm choosing between books, then I'd expect UF to have less focus on smooching than PR. In UF there should be some other major issue to resolve, too. Maybe it's your friend's personal idea about what's what, and not a genre issue. It's easy to get confused if in the shop those share a bookcase and it's labelled UF, but PR is also shelved there. :Shrug:

I agree with this. There's a lot of blurring of the boundaries, though. How central does a romantic arc have to be before it's a fantasy romance (or PNR) instead of a fantasy with a romantic subplot?

I always thought of UF as centering very much around real-world cities, with the premise that certain elements from traditional (most often western, but it doesn't have to be) mythology being real and living in the shadows, with the protagonist being a special subclass of human (or demi human in some cases) who can see and interact with them, and possibly have some power over them.I tend to think of UF as contemporary in setting, though I've run across some centered in historical cities too. Like maybe Jack the Ripper was really a vampire or something.

One thing in UF that isn't strictly required in PNR is the centrality of the city setting. The quirks and nature of the city should be so central to the story, character perspectives, and plot that the setting feels like a character in its own right. This makes it harder to write an modern UF about a city one is not intimately familiar with (historical settings obviously do require more fudging, since none of us have been to historic London or NY or whatever except in books). It would take a lot of research, and maybe some trips, to write one in a city one has never lived or spent a lot of time in.

I also think of UF as generally dripping with character voice and attitude, often featuring a snarky or jaded, first-person protagonist, though I've run across some that is in third person, even in omniscient, as is Meghan Lindholm's Wizard of the Pigeons, which is an older UF (set in Seattle)
 
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Anna Iguana

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My impression is there are at least two strains of urban fantasy. The kind I read has a female protagonist and a strong romantic element, but generically, it isn't Romance. Think Kim Harrison or early Laurell K. Hamilton. Then there's another kind of urban fantasy, which I guess Jim Butcher exemplifies, with (usually) male protagonists and a grittier, more noir feel. I never thought of American Gods as urban fantasy, because the city (i.e., urban politics and life) didn't feel like a significant element in that story. I just thought of AG as contemporary fantasy. Similarly, I like Charlaine Harris's Southern Vampire series, and I got into it because I was reading Harrison and Hamilton, but it has a small town setting that really means it's not urban fantasy, either. Just my two cents.
 
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I don't dislike it per se, but it is one of the genres I steer clear of. That's personal taste, though. I don't like the use of modern figures of speech in fantasy settings, especially when the protagonist is introduced into a fantasy society, usually through some kind of parallel universe set up. The use of language aside, the stories can be interesting. In truth what sours my appreciation of stories isn't the setting as much as the soap opera plots that keep getting shoved into them and even worse when they carry a social justice diversity (SJD) twist to them. I prefer to focus on the world building and the main adventure plot line. SJD always stems from a huge hole in the world building and probably why I find it irritating.

Some stories aren't truly urban fantasy, but have elements of it in them. The Great Book of Amber for instance.
 

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I personally don't care what the "general public" thinks about urban fantasy, or any other kind of SF/F. They enjoy what they enjoy, I love what I love. I admit I look down on them a bit, but that's my own idiocy and I know it's parochial.

As for what UF refers to, the definition started out being specific to modern cities. Then it evolved to include ancient as well as modern cities. Then it evolved further to refer to any kind of contemporary fantasy, especially if it included elements of modern tech such as cars, guns, or cell phones. Who knows what it will next evolve into?

Getting hung up on precise definitions of genre labels is a fun but silly game, as far as I'm concerned.
 

Anna Iguana

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In truth what sours my appreciation of stories isn't the setting as much as the soap opera plots that keep getting shoved into them and even worse when they carry a social justice diversity (SJD) twist to them. I prefer to focus on the world building and the main adventure plot line. SJD always stems from a huge hole in the world building and probably why I find it irritating.

Could you give a couple examples? That's not something I've noticed.
 

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In truth what sours my appreciation of stories isn't the setting as much as the soap opera plots that keep getting shoved into them and even worse when they carry a social justice diversity (SJD) twist to them.

I've no idea what you mean. What is social justice diversity? I have a hard time thinking that something called that would ever be anything but a straw man for something.

I prefer to focus on the world building and the main adventure plot line. SJD always stems from a huge hole in the world building and probably why I find it irritating.

I don't know what you mean here either. Seems like you're talking in sweeping generalities. Isn't world building all in the framing, whether we're talking UF or a secondary world? A writer can have whatever level of diversity they wish, since they get to describe the setting (actually, in a modern UF set in a typical US city, a cast that isn't diverse would feel like bad world building). And secondary worlds can be as diverse as the writer wishes them to be. How is that a world building hole? I suppose a HF story where a remote Scottish village in the 18th century is as diverse as a modern metropolis, but I've never read a story like that. Even a setting where it makes sense for everyone to be the same race and religion would probably have other kinds of diversity.

But I'm not sure what you mean by "social justice diversity" as opposed to plain old realistic human diversity.

IMO worlds without diversity are the ones with the world building holes, unless there's a logical reason for everyone to be the same in all respects.

I tend to prefer secondary world fantasy more than UF overall, beause it's more escapist for me. I guess I enjoy horses and antique weapons and unique made-up social institutions over the real world. I'm not really a city person. But I've enjoyed some UF novels if their protagonists appeal to me.

And I've read UF with male authors and male protagonists that have romantic subplots too. For some reason, guys are allowed to write romantic arcs without being accused of their books being a stealth romance.
 
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Curlz

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I don't like the use of modern figures of speech in fantasy settings, especially when the protagonist is introduced into a fantasy society, usually through some kind of parallel universe set up.
...
Some stories aren't truly urban fantasy, but have elements of it in them. The Great Book of Amber for instance.
Urban Fantasy most often happens within our contemporary world. It appears you are thinking of "Fantasy", which tends to be set within a faux-medieval setting and obviously "modern figures of speech" don't sit well there. Amber series is not really UF. Btw, I googled "SJD" and nothing came up!
 

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I think there's even disagreement within the writing community on what urban fantasy is. The name suggests an urban setting, but I've seen agents who consider fantasy in any contemporary setting to be "urban fantasy." I remember people on AW who said that "contemporary fantasy" as a name confused them because to them "contemporary" meant anything not-genre. That seemed weird to me. So some people say "urban fantasy" is any fantasy in a modern setting. Some say it's only those in an urban setting, and anything else that's set in today's world is "contemporary fantasy." And then there's "paranormal." I've had agents explain to me the difference between "contemporary/urban fantasy" and "paranormal" and it seems to come down to who is in the know, regarding the fantasy element, but since it was such a fine line, I figured it wouldn't matter much while querying. I'm certain the general public doesn't know the difference.
 

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I think of Urban Fantasy as (more or less) ghosts/vampires/fae etc. in our real world.

Years ago I tried to read a series book by a HUGE UF author, and I DNF'd it pretty fast. (Won't name the author, because they're very popular and this is just my personal taste.) So I assumed I didn't like UF, and then I found Daniel José Older and realized I actually love UF. :D

And not to :deadhorse here, but when someone uses language like SJD (which is a new one on me, but close enough), I'd personally like to see examples of specific books they're referring to so I can calibrate what they're talking about. I know what such terms have meant every other time I've seen someone use them, but I don't like to presume.
 

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Wiki indicates that Contemporary Fantasy might have replaced "Modern Fantasy" because it indicates that it's fantasy set in the time period of the author (rather than contemporary to the reader as "modern" might imply).

I think some folks may have adopted "Urban Fantasy" to indicate that it's not a secondary world, even if it's a fantastical version of Earth. (Of course, then there's some of the New Weird stuff that is also very "urban" oriented, but is a secondary world.)

I have also found that there is some confusion about Paranormal/Paranormal Romance and Urban Fantasy, and much of it tends to split down gender lines. If the author is female folks will assume it's PNR. And because some of the big names in early Urban Fantasy were women, the assumption is that PNR is actually Urban Fantasy and is therefore vampire sex. (Obviously, these are mostly folks who have never read either but have picked up an impression based on seeing book covers or hearing someone else talk about a thing.)
 

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I'm going to briefly put on my moderator hat to issue a general warning that if anyone feels like they can poo-poo romance in this thread, you probably want to rethink that.

*takes mod hat off*

Now, onto the meat!

I was having a conversation with a friend the other day that gave me pause. She said she hated the Urban Fantasy genre. This hit me with a shock, since the idea of Urban Fantasy always struck me with a giddy interest. You see, I always thought of Urban Fantasy as things like The Dresden Files, The Iron Druid, or American Gods. Wizards getting by as PIs in Chicago. Gods working quietly in funeral homes. College campus legends and traditions about the local park secretly being about avoiding fae abduction. The melding of modern culture and ancient myths fascinates me as a reader.

When I asked her more about it, she brought up disliking the books about girls smooching werewolves and vampires, with an implication that she isn't simply referring to the Twilight Saga, but a much broader trend. The remark made me question my understanding of the genre. Is Urban Fantasy the same as Paranormal Romance to most people? Is what I'm actually interested in just regular ol' Fantasy? How do you understand where these genres break down?

Yeah, I know that genre classification is a very messy beast, at the best of days. Here's to hoping this conversation goes somewhere other than technicalities and exceptions.

Urban Fantasy (UF) and Paranormal Romance (PNR) aren't the same, but their edges overlap a lot, as many have pointed out. I've written both UF and PNR and the difference for me is the focus of the story. In the PNR, it's about the romantic and sexual relationship (with a happy ending) and surviving the magical world. In the UF it's about saving the day and surviving the magical world. But you can see how these could slip in and out of each other (and in my case, the world building for my UF is exactly the same as my PNR, because its the same world.

The thing about romance is that there really does need to be either a happy ever after (HEA, i.e., the love interests are together and committed at the end) or a happy for now (HFN, i.e., the love interests are together and things look hopeful for the future). That, and a strong focus on the relationship, are what makes something a genre romance.

Smooching doesn't make something a romance. Banging doesn't make it a romance. It being primarily about the romantic relationship makes something a romance. Most savvy romance readers grock this. And they'll happily read beyond romance. They don't see PNR and UF as the same thing at all.

However, cross-shelving in bookstores does happen. So yes, you may find some books that are more PNR in the fantasy section.

As for where UF and plain old contemporary overlap, it's more that UF is a subset of contemporary fantasy. It has, in the past, had a noir mystery feel (ala Dresden) and it's usually set in a city. It certainly has a more episodic feel to it, like a TV show.

And there are strains of gritty paranormal romance out there too, which end up stumbling more into UF than PRN. (See also the Psycop series by Jordan Castillo Price, but only if you're okay with the love interests being men. Gritty. Dark. Cops. Ghosts. Sex.)

Which is all to say-- no I don't think the majority of readers think UF is PNR. I do think people need to stop bringing up Twilight all the dang time, since the book is now more than ten years old. It didn't even start PNR as a genre.

I don't dislike it per se, but it is one of the genres I steer clear of. That's personal taste, though. I don't like the use of modern figures of speech in fantasy settings, especially when the protagonist is introduced into a fantasy society, usually through some kind of parallel universe set up. The use of language aside, the stories can be interesting. In truth what sours my appreciation of stories isn't the setting as much as the soap opera plots that keep getting shoved into them and even worse when they carry a social justice diversity (SJD) twist to them. I prefer to focus on the world building and the main adventure plot line. SJD always stems from a huge hole in the world building and probably why I find it irritating.

Some stories aren't truly urban fantasy, but have elements of it in them. The Great Book of Amber for instance.

I'm always amused when people disparage current SFF books for being all "social justice-y" and full of, you know, politics.

Fantasy is a genre of subversion. It has always been a genre of subversion. It will continue to be a genre of subversion. If you think older fantasy isn't political or full of social justice, I've got bad news for you, starting with the themes of "Frankenstein".

*puts mod hat back on* And if you think disparaging diversity in fiction or real life is gonna fly, I also have bad news for you.
 

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Is it still Urban Fantasy if its set in the modern world but in the countryside?
 

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Is it still Urban Fantasy if its set in the modern world but in the countryside?

That's a good question. Part of me says no. Part of me says yes. But ultimately, it's up to the content and how you want to market the book. For example, if it was more Dresden Files but in the country, I'd probably say UF. If it's more like Charles de Lint's books that are set in the country, I'd probably call it contemporary fantasy.
 

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I was having a conversation with a friend the other day that gave me pause. She said she hated the Urban Fantasy genre. This hit me with a shock, since the idea of Urban Fantasy always struck me with a giddy interest. You see, I always thought of Urban Fantasy as things like The Dresden Files, The Iron Druid, or American Gods. Wizards getting by as PIs in Chicago. Gods working quietly in funeral homes. College campus legends and traditions about the local park secretly being about avoiding fae abduction. The melding of modern culture and ancient myths fascinates me as a reader.

When I asked her more about it, she brought up disliking the books about girls smooching werewolves and vampires, with an implication that she isn't simply referring to the Twilight Saga, but a much broader trend. The remark made me question my understanding of the genre. Is Urban Fantasy the same as Paranormal Romance to most people? Is what I'm actually interested in just regular ol' Fantasy? How do you understand where these genres break down?

Yeah, I know that genre classification is a very messy beast, at the best of days. Here's to hoping this conversation goes somewhere other than technicalities and exceptions.

I never knew there was such an issue between it. I would vampires in their own genre: supernatural, with witches, werewolves, that kind of stuff, and Urban Fantasy as dragons, wizards, elves, mythical creatures in a modern setting. I guess I've never really thought about it much, though. I would not automatically link Urban Fantasy with Romance.
 

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Is it still Urban Fantasy if its set in the modern world but in the countryside?

Um, suburban fantasy? Or maybe rural fantasy? I don't intend this to be flippant, but it does seem that the geographic setting may be the key element in the description.
 

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Um, suburban fantasy? Or maybe rural fantasy? I don't intend this to be flippant, but it does seem that the geographic setting may be the key element in the description.

Large swathes of De Lint's urban fantasy novels are set in rural/country settings, and the phrase "urban fantasy" was first used on the cover copy of his novel Moonheart.
 

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I was having a conversation with a friend the other day that gave me pause. She said she hated the Urban Fantasy genre. This hit me with a shock, since the idea of Urban Fantasy always struck me with a giddy interest.

In addition to the discussion of genre issues, readers don't all enjoy the same things. Or the same things all the time. I've grown unfond of epic fantasy over the years, for instance, for reasons all my own that I don't expect others to share. I like realistic mysteries, especially tough detective novels; other people hate 'em. Your friend's response may be nothing more complicated than personal preference.

caw
 

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In truth what sours my appreciation of stories isn't the setting as much as the soap opera plots that keep getting shoved into them and even worse when they carry a social justice diversity (SJD) twist to them. I prefer to focus on the world building and the main adventure plot line. SJD always stems from a huge hole in the world building and probably why I find it irritating.

:Huh:
Could you give a couple examples? That's not something I've noticed.

I've no idea what you mean. What is social justice diversity? I have a hard time thinking that something called that would ever be anything but a straw man for something.

^What they said. I think you need to tell us what you mean by "SJD", and give examples of why this is a cause of plot holes, so we don't just assume you're trolling.
 

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Um, suburban fantasy? Or maybe rural fantasy? I don't intend this to be flippant, but it does seem that the geographic setting may be the key element in the description.

The tagline is "faery serial killers in the New Forest", but the MC is a post-grad student of chemistry at Southampton University so you've got both city and rural. Maybe contemporary fantasy is a more accurate descriptor.
 

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I agree with the above poster who said they don't care what the general public thinks. I want to know what the readers of UF think it is. They're the ones we authors are appealing to, after all.