Has #MeToo Jumped The Shark?

Silva

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I guess I don't find it unbelievable or too extreme or surprising at all, because dudes treating consent as an obstacle to overcome is all too common. The path from "oh I guess consent is a thing" to "I'm going to look for partners that are willing to give it freely and enthusiastically instead of getting stuck on partners that I have to drag it out of" seems to be a long one.
 

nighttimer

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There has never been a successful revolution without pushback and backlash. Not one. Not ever. Never.

For any revolution to succeed there must be crystal clear comprehension that there will be detractors, criticism and carping within and without the ranks, and attempts to dispute, debunk, discredit and destroy the revolution in its nascent infancy. Kill a revolution in its crib before it grows and matures and occupies the streets.

There should be a coalescing within the collective of calling a convention of concerned citizens where a conclave can be convened to curry constructive conversation to challenge our own fears, doubts and concerns and to conclude with a combination of the best ideas in order to create and communicate a coherent code of conduct of what clearly constitutes sexual harassment, sexual predatory behavior and conditions that contribute to coping and crushing the cruel patriarchal privilege of men to prey on innocent women, men, boys and girls as well as their treacherous collaborators within the matriarchy where brainwashed and cowardly women ignore, aid, assist, abet and indulge predatory men and at times even collaborate.

Or to answer the question.

Has #MeToo Jumped the Shark?

In words of one syllable Uh. HELL. NO. Like you for reals, homes? :Wha:

Want proof? You got 15 minutes to hear and feel the fearsome force of a victim turned vengeful scourge of BOTH her persecutor and the cowards that enabled him and then tried to claim they had seen the error of their ways?

You really want a revolution? Then do what's necessary to bring it to pass. Don't pick up a rock unless you mean to throw it. Don't the rock at the glass unless you mean to break it.

Don't say you want a revolution unless you're ready to rattle the cage.

Sit back and watch Aly Raisman take out her flame thrower and burn loathsome Larry Nassar and the useless USA Gymnastics like wheat bread left in the toaster three minutes too long. :flamethrower

irascatur malis diu ardere
t. Evil should burn hot and burn long.
 
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kneedeepinthedoomed

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nighttimer is completely right.

When she tells him no, and he drops his pants in response, he crosses the line and anything that comes after is his fault and he got no right to bitch.

Newsflash: A lot of people have a really hard time to say no to others, especially while they're being pressured, for a whole variety of reasons. Maybe they're afraid, maybe something else inhibits them. It's not as simple as "stop putting his dick in your mouth". People shouldn't even have to say "no".

People should have to say "yes".

Active consent should be required. I'm fully with Sweden. They're doing it right.

This also means that it's not ok to penetrate another person while she's sleeping or whatever else. She didn't say yes, you go to jail, simple as that. I don't know how there can be two opinions about this.

Of course it didn't jump the shark.
 

Silva

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Newsflash: A lot of people have a really hard time to say no to others, especially while they're being pressured, for a whole variety of reasons. Maybe they're afraid, maybe something else inhibits them. It's not as simple as "stop putting his dick in your mouth". People shouldn't even have to say "no".

People should have to say "yes".

This. I'm one of those people, thanks to toxic ideas about female sexuality and gender roles. And I'm working on getting more comfortable with expressing myself because I believe that's as important for me as it is for a potential partner, but at the same time it shouldn't be this super difficult thing to figure out that if someone's just lying there like a corpse, or using distancing body language (keeping someone at arms' length, turning or pulling away from kisses,etc.), or even on the verge of crying, ffs, then maybe they don't really want it. The vast majority of people are perfectly capable of interpreting and responding appropriately to these non-verbal cues; they choose not to out of a fundamental lack of respect for the other person's desires, boundaries, and agency.
 

Lyv

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Andrew Sullivan thinks it's over, or should be. Because men are all hairy and testosterony and stuff. And because we're now trying to take down the patriarchy. How dare we?

This response, I confess, had me cheering out loud:

We're Not Done Here by Laurie Penny

Penny's piece is a worthwhile read, and when looking for a quote to pull, I chose the last paragraph. What comes before is too interwoven. But I hope you read it. If not, this is the conclusion:

There will always be cowardly and conservative elements in society just desperate to take even one irresponsibly reported story and use it to damn an entire movement, and we must not let them, because this matters too damn much. There’s a reeking double standard in the room. Right now, if a man makes a mistake and hurts someone, it might, just for once, ruin his career — but it seems that if a woman makes a mistake and hurts someone right back, or allows her pain to be twisted to serve someone else’s agenda, she damns not just herself, but all other women by association.
 

Lyv

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BTW, what would that even mean, Jumping the Shark? That it was fun for a while, but now consent and respect lost their appeal?
IMO, that's not quite it. Laurie Penny said it better, but here's my take: It's that we MeToo women have all collectively jumped the shark in our little movement. It's our actions that are wrong. We did it wrong. We need another hashtag, maybe a catchier one that doesn't exclude men (MeToo doesn't, but try to tell detractors that) or make them feel bad, or a movement in which no one ever makes a single misstep, because that misstep is Fonzie in water skies on the ramp, taking down a whole TV series. Just my opinion, I say to soften my words, because I still have that "be sweet, by ladylike, don't intrude" message in the back of my brain every single second and sometimes it does the typing.
 

Celia Cyanide

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Andrew Sullivan thinks it's over, or should be. Because men are all hairy and testosterony and stuff. And because we're now trying to take down the patriarchy. How dare we?

And this kind of thing pisses me off, and I realize that this is not the first time I've complained about being pissed off in this thread.

Even if I do believe that men and women are that different, why we we have to put all the responsibility on women? Women are expected to know "what men are like," and that if we go to their apartments at night, we should know what to expect. We should know that straight men want to have sex with any woman, even if she isn't that attractive. And we are also expected to be aware of how we look, and be aware that if we dress in a way that is considered "sexy," which is subjective, it will attract male attention. And it isn't their fault. That's just how they're wired.

But the reverse is never true. Men are never expected to understand that women are different from men. They are never expected to be aware of their own appearance, and realize that if they're not super hot, maybe women don't want to screw them right away. They are never told that women aren't as horny as men, so if a woman wears an outfit that they thing looks "sexy," it's possible that she just likes that outfit, and isn't even thinking about how it looks to men. They are not expected to understand that if a woman says she doesn't want to have sex, but she doesn't slap them and storm out, maybe it means she doesn't want to have sex, but still likes them and is hoping to have a nice time with them.
 

Celia Cyanide

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BTW, what would that even mean, Jumping the Shark? That it was fun for a while, but now consent and respect lost their appeal?

I posted the thread title, but I don't know. I was using it because others had. Here is what I think it could mean to some people:

https://nypost.com/2018/01/15/the-metoo-movement-has-officially-jumped-the-shark/

It’s official. #MeToo has jumped the shark.
It happened with Saturday’s brutal, public character assassination of actor Aziz Ansari — a dude who’s laid claim to being one of Hollywood’s good guys. Now, his reputation is in tatters and his career threatened because of a lady who took her time saying “No.”
Men — even decent, sensitive, feminist men — be afraid. This could happen to you.

Yeah, because if a man is a feminist, he can't make mistakes, and even if he does, we shouldn't complain about them, because we should be lucky to even have a comedian who tells jokes about why feminism is good and not bad.

I think people think that it has "gone too far," because now we're not talking about something that is not honest-to-goodness sexual assault, but just disrespect. As if that were okay, and not worth complaining about. We're finally starting to realize how many women are sexual assault survivors. As a survivor of sexual assault myself, I know that it can effect how you react in situations like this. But hey, it's still your fault for not leaving, and if you don't we shouldn't talk about it.

Also, I think some people are worried that if we talk about things like this, things that are "not sexual assault," then everyone might start assuming that all these women who came out during #MeToo were really talking about "not sexual assault." But sexual assault happens. And so do other disrespectful actions.
 
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Max Vaehling

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IMO, that's not quite it. Laurie Penny said it better, but here's my take: It's that we MeToo women have all collectively jumped the shark in our little movement. It's our actions that are wrong. We did it wrong. We need another hashtag, maybe a catchier one that doesn't exclude men (MeToo doesn't, but try to tell detractors that) or make them feel bad, or a movement in which no one ever makes a single misstep, because that misstep is Fonzie in water skies on the ramp, taking down a whole TV series. Just my opinion, I say to soften my words, because I still have that "be sweet, by ladylike, don't intrude" message in the back of my brain every single second and sometimes it does the typing.

What I can't get my head around is how the Shark Jumping claim suggests that we can just do what people did with that show - stop watching. It's not like it's an entertainment choice that needs to stay 'interesting' to be relevant. Then again, maybe for some people it is and they tagged along to see what celebrity will be roasted next and now they think it doesn't get juicier... I don't know. It just never occurred to me there might be a shark to jump.

I do love that Laurie Penny piece, btw. Thanks for sharing that earlier.
 

Lyv

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Celia, as I said earlier, I get mad when I see the thread title. But I came to feel that it's a good thread title for this discussion, because, yes, that is the discussion now. It's the narrative many of us fighting against. And I posted my rant earlier, then was out the door with my husband to do an errand, and before the car door closed, I was wishing I'd included a sentence saying, "Celia, this isn't about you. I get the thread title. I'm ranting about the reality outside this thread." I apologize if at any point you felt criticized or attacked. I hope not. If you did, it's on me.

Max, you said it so well. We can't just stop watching, but our "show" of telling our stories, calling out abuses, demanding change is in danger of cancellation. The media can move on, those who don't want to change or even tweak the system can dismiss us more easily. I'm just angry and frustrated and, fortunately, determined.
 
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AW Admin

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When the suppressed attempt to rise, the most predictable response is dismissal, followed by attempts to reduce their value and effect, most particularly, attempts to silence dissent.

Don't be silent. Persist.
 

Roxxsmom

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There is something to the old "Women are from Venus, men are from Mars" perspective. In my own experience, I've found there are times when men genuinely do not understand what a woman is trying to signal, just as there are women who can't fathom that a man couldn't understand what she was signalling, it seemed so obvious to her. Or that a man might think about sex and progression so very differently from a woman.

The notion that men and women speak different languages in some ways is far from new, and there is indeed something to it. And it's not just men and women, but people from different cultural backgrounds and from different levels of status and empowerment within a society. Deborah Tannin's books are better at dissecting these factors, imo, than John Gray ever was, though she still writes with the biases of a (US) western sociolinguist (or whatever one would call her academic specialty). Gray has no academic credentials at all, as far as I know.

Historically, the people who were in power didn't bother listening or learning the "language" of whoever was beneath them in the social hierarchy. Masters didn't worry about parsing what servants or slaves meant, the established population didn't worry about immigrants, and the colonizers didn't worry about the nuanced cues of the colonized, and men didn't bother learning how to read women (though they made a lot of condescending comments about how "unfathomable" and "alien" women were). The underclasses, of course, didn't have the same luxury, as their survival and economic well being depended on being able to read their oppressors moods and body language.

Any advice given was for those with less social status or power to become more like those above them, or to humor them and not bug them when they didn't pick up on their subtle, feminine cues. Remember how John Gray essentially told women it was mostly on them to make things work, because men needed to be left alone when they got home from work and didn't want to hear "troubles talk" or to bother reading subtle, indirect cues that something was wrong and she really, really needed him to cook dinner or look after the kids tonight? Remember all those books about "fear of success" and the glass ceiling back in the 80s told women that their own habits and communication style were holding them back, and if we could only learn to be more assertive, we'd be as successful as men, and we'd no longer be victimized by men?

Except when women tried being more assertive, they were judged differently than men, because now they were pushy "bitches."

So maybe what is finally changing is that women are collectively pushing back against these norms, the idea that whatever men do is better and whatever happens to women is really their own fault. Maybe women are finally insisting that men gain the same literacy in female body language and cues that women have been forced to develop for male norms and cues since antiquity.

It's not all women, though. It never is with social movements involving women. We seem to have a higher defection rate from our own social justice movements than members of other traditionally marginalized groups do, though it's very likely I am missing nuances and dynamics that are present in other groups that aren't as united from within as they seem to be from without. Some women feel that they are better off siding with the status quo, because they fear losing whatever they have built for themselves, whatever status they have gained, in the so-called "man's world."
 

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This article does a good job of putting things, including the claims that #metoo is going too far or resulting in mass hysteria and the overpunishment of men.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/01/this-is-not-a-sex-panic/550547/

It sums up a lot of what people have been saying in this thread.

...Or is this the same slippery-slope argument that stifles so many cultural shifts toward justice?

Where subtlety and reflection are most surely lost is if stories are not told. Warnings against them tend to assume that readers cannot recognize nuance—from readers of the Shitty Media Men list to readers of the stories of Weinstein and Ansari. The challenge is to trust that readers can hold multiple ideas in their heads and read critically, and that there can be discussion of stories less egregious than Weinstein’s—even amid a debate about anonymous sourcing and the decision to publish the story in the first place. The movement is easily depicted as an attempt to divide men into two bins: good or bad. In that context, it’s easy to be outraged over the idea that Ansari belongs in the same bin as Weinstein.

Of course, Ansari has not been assassinated or torched or fired from anything. His career is not ruined. He is being shamed, and in all likelihood humiliated, but readers are also being discerning and critical, skeptical of a journalistically flawed telling. To some, Ansari is indeed serving as a face of disrespectful behavior widely seen as coercive. But I will be surprised if he sees professional ruin. Many men have not seen significant repercussions, and the fundamental point of the movement is that, for centuries, right up to Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, men saw little to no consequences for coercive behavior...

And

...Telling these stories will not lead to less sex—to men being afraid to hit on people because they’re afraid of being inappropriate. It will lead to men being less creepy and domineering, and more communicative and confident in the rightness of how to go about things, and more decent and capable. This is not an anti-sex movement gone off the rails. It is a pro-sex movement just laying the tracks.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I have been trying to put together what I want to say about this, and it is difficult. I have to confess to being someone who is not good at reading social cues, specifically about things like this. I was recently called "naive" by a close friend because I thought I could make friends with a man my age. As an actress, I really struggle with doing any scenes with a romantic subtext. I have lost out on roles because I haven't been able to understand the romantic subtext in the scene.

So I suppose I can sympathize with someone who is unable to read social cues in a situation like this. But at the same time, I cannot help but feel like there is a double standard. As a woman, I am expected to be aware of my appearance, and how I am dressed and what kind of attention it might attract, and not to meet men in the evening, or I may give them the wrong idea. But I feel like the same should be expected from men. They should be expected to pay attention to how women react to them, and if they mention that they are married or involved with someone, assume it matters. And since we are expected to know "what men are like," they should be expected to know "what women are like" and act accordingly.

I want to continue to expect more from men, and expect them to know better. I don't want to just default to "what men are like."

Perhaps I am overthinking it.
 

lizmonster

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I want to continue to expect more from men, and expect them to know better. I don't want to just default to "what men are like."

Perhaps I am overthinking it.

I don't think you're overthinking it at all.

Men are capable of nuance and understanding. Men have subtle and complex emotional lives, just like women do. Some of the most beautiful, perceptive literature that humanity has produced has been written by men.

To suggest that in this one narrow context we should shrug and assume men are socially stunted and we have to take all the responsibility is a gross insult to everyone involved.
 

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Also, I'm really bad at reading social cues myself. Which is why I don't just assume somebody's consent.

This is actually an important point: What is the proper thing to do when there is doubt about whether or not the other person wants you to do something that affects them? Forge ahead and hope they're okay with it (or if they're not, they capitulate anyway), or back off a bit and see what the other person does when the ball is in their court, or maybe even just to ask "Are you okay with this?"

I get the feeling some guys are so "scared" the woman might get cold feet if they, the guy, backs off to see what she does, or simply asks if she's okay with things, that they barge ahead.

As if losing the chance to have (possibly non consensual) sex is worse than bulldozing through with someone who is unsure or uncomfortable.
 
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lizmonster

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I think it's disingenuous to assume that most of the cases where women "give in" on a date are in any way ambiguous.

The revelation that started this thread may not have been criminal, but even if you believe the woman in question should have been more explicit (or just left), her reluctance was perfectly clear. The problem is with the cultural stereotype that men are supposed to press and press and press, and the more resistant her body language - or actual words - the harder he is supposed to press. The default is "take whatever you can get" instead of "look/ask for consent."

I do believe there are gray areas and legit misunderstandings. But I think there are far, far fewer of them than people like to think, and not nearly enough to garner the sort of attention they've been getting.

A guy doesn't have to be a criminal to be a jacka**.
 

Roxxsmom

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Andrew Sullivan thinks it's over, or should be. Because men are all hairy and testosterony and stuff. And because we're now trying to take down the patriarchy. How dare we?

If he's right, and all men feel the way he did after his testosterone shots, and feeling that way means they can't control their ambition or horniness. If rape and sexual predation is simply "normal" male behavior, then it is time for a revolution--one that deprives men of social freedom, autonomy and authority the way women have been in so many times and places.

And if he really feels that being depressed and low energy is the way it feels to be a woman all the time, then he needs to be around more women.

What a git. Does he even know what he's saying about his gender? What ever happened to #notallmen? Oh yeah, that only gets trotted out when it's useful to derail women who are talking about how pissed off they are about rape in other contexts.
 

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One of the first things I learned on my first trip out of the country on my own is people all over the world are mostly normal.

Every guy has not lost control of his sexual urges, crime isn't rampant everywhere, people are mostly honest and very welcoming.

That doesn't mean there isn't crime, it doesn't mean there aren't sexual predators, or dangerous places out there in the world. I hit a couple of those, but for the most part people are like your neighbors (provided you aren't in a bad neighborhood or a country in the midst of war anyway). They invite you in, they show you around their town, they'll watch out for you if they see the need. People are mostly normal.

And that lesson was repeated in country after country on my many trips around the world.

Sullivan is one of those not normal folks. He should get out more.
 

Celia Cyanide

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What a git. Does he even know what he's saying about his gender? What ever happened to #notallmen? Oh yeah, that only gets trotted out when it's useful to derail women who are talking about how pissed off they are about rape in other contexts.

Yeah, I noticed that, too. I was asking about that when Morgan Spurlock gave that cringe worthy apology, and stated that "we are all part of the problem."

Men generalize about men all the time. They tell us about "what men are like," and that, "men only want one thing," and that, of course, "all men are dogs." But when women start talking about things some men have actually done that they shouldn't be doing, then we get hit with #NotAllMen.
 

Roxxsmom

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Yeah, I noticed that, too. I was asking about that when Morgan Spurlock gave that cringe worthy apology, and stated that "we are all part of the problem."

Men generalize about men all the time. They tell us about "what men are like," and that, "men only want one thing," and that, of course, "all men are dogs." But when women start talking about things some men have actually done that they shouldn't be doing, then we get hit with #NotAllMen.

Exactly.

I also gnashed my teeth over the "straw man" characterization of gender studies in his piece. I don't know anyone who says that men and women are completely alike and that all differences between them as a group are 100% due to socialization.

There's a huge difference between saying that there's more overlap between the two groups than many people assume, and that many individuals fall well within the normal distribution for the other gender in traits like sex drive and physical aggression and so on versus saying that all men and all women are exactly alike.

Not to mention the fact that men as a group score higher in terms of average levels of physical aggression is not something they should be crowing about, imo. Regardless of whether or not male abuse of women is biologically driven or not, however, how can any man blame women for being sick of it and for saying, "No more"? The argument about whether or not testosterone is what causes some men to commit sexual harassment and sexual assault really is beside the point. These behaviors are making half of the human race miserable and stopping them from living up to their potential, and the men who can't adapt, who can't stop themselves from treating women like objects, need to be excluded from positions of power and respect.

It's a bit like saying that we can't do anything about racial discrimination in this country because people are simply wired up to be clannish and to fear people who look different from them. Even if there is some truth to the "wired for Xenophobia" thing, it's amazing how many people can and do overcome it. And institutionalized racism (and sexism) aren't the same things as individual bias anyway, and they tend to be far more damaging overall.

Individual bias is what leads a man to be predatory with women. Institutionalized sexism is what allows him to get away with it and blames his victims for his behavior, thus emboldening more predators.
 
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JeanGenie

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I hope #meetoo has room for many more discussions than the ones about Weinstein and other straight out abusers like him. What I like about #meetoo, is that not only men, but women, have begun to question what we've previously thought of as normal. Uncomfortable, unfortunate, and scary perhaps, but normal.

There is also the fact that gets left out of the debate a lot: men are generally physically stronger than women. At the early stages of dating, there is a real risk that the man you don't really know that well, could also be aggressive. Women take that into account, often without really thinking about it. So if you find yourself alone with a man you thought was funny and sweet, and he becomes aggressive (not necessarily violent, but pushy, aggressive, not reading your signals or hearing your words) then you're going to be careful. You're not going to want to make it worse.