How to make a goodie-goodie character complex, deep, and interesting?

MythMonger · Jan 6, 2018

If you dissect your own description of her as "lawful good" you might get some interesting answers.

Is the law she's following corrupt? If this were a 1984 type setting, a lawful person could easily be viewed as bad by the reader.

What defines "good" in your book? Religion can be used to justify many things, not the least of which is murder and war and can easily lead to a perversion of what is considered good.

Lakey · Jan 6, 2018

I like what folks have said about looking for ways that the choice to be good (whatever “good” means in your context) creates trouble for the character, either internally or externally. I have a character who is a people-pleaser, a deeply conflict-avoidant person, and at first I worried she would be boring, because stories are all about conflict, right? But as I wrote I came to understand that (a) avoiding conflict with others creates internal conflict, because it thwarts her from getting what she wants; (b) being people-pleasing creates conflict when she tries to please multiple people with conflicting needs.

Also, revisiting the definition of “good” is excellent advice. One person’s good can be another person’s dogmatic rigidity, or injustice, or betrayal. Another of my characters finds her religious beliefs in conflict with her personal desires. Being good to her religion and her family means breaking her own heart and someone else’s in the bargain. What does being good mean for her? Ask yourself who loses out when your character is is good. Does she lose out? Do other people lose out who might benefit if she did something less good?

blackcat777 · Jan 6, 2018

Thanks again to everyone who posted, it gave me so many ideas and so much to think about!

I thought about how to frame what's challenging me, and it's specifically that this character has to maintain her plot functions as not-raging and lacking physical agency, while not falling into the trap of being a cliched female accessory - and that's what was bothering me about her, and why she didn't feel complete. I couldn't completely put my finger on what was wrong, but I knew it was there. She has plot points that deepen some aspects of her inner conflict, but they don't happen until mid-late book 1, and again at mid-late series, and I felt like she wasn't generating enough intrigue until then.

So what I decided to do - give her more control of information. She has a secret that I originally planned to spill early, but she can actually keep it until about halfway through the book and it will make things way more intense.

I like the running away from home idea. She's half human/half not. I was originally going to have her from the human side, searching for a way to get to the other side. But if I make her from the other side, and start the story after she's already escaped into the human side makes her a lot more interesting, capable, and mysterious. It establishes her agency.

(Also, concerning demon sex - it is with the hero!

Thought I should mention that. )

I don't have a problem with ALL female characters, but so many of the insights here are valuable and were completely worth pondering, because it's crazy how much of the outside world anyone can absorb unconsciously.

I do have lots of awesome ladies in my cast -

The church is run by women (which has more power than the king). The head of the church does some Bad Stuff, but it's because she's secretly in battle with Bigger Bad (which makes her Totally Badass), and she's an enemy that turns tenuous ally at a later point. My marshal is a woman. Another woman who refuses to remarry when expected is the reason that a lot goes wrong in the first place. I have a sorceress who is ultra wicked, but will do anything for her daughter (I loved Atia's character in the Rome series and drew some inspiration there). My tertiary characters are an even split of men/women. I have a magitech realm where women run most of the politics (nobody gets there in the first book, but it's coming). I have LGBTQ characters. So it's not like stereotypical patriarchal characters are the ONLY ones who get to do anything interesting.

I do have a POV character who is a misogynist scumbag, but if I can't establish him as unreliable and a complete scumbag (gross misogyny is only one of his revolting characteristics), then I've failed as an author.

One of my goals is to juxtapose enough wildly different viewpoints in an attempt to make the reader think.

Just this goodie-goodie FMC was killing me. But more magic, more cunning, more knowledge, and more withholding of information is precisely what I need to spruce her up.

And also: so many good thoughts about Lawful Good. Judge Dredd is one of my favorite movies, and I'm having a blast with Tales of Berseria at the moment. Light doesn't always equal good. And a sincerely sanctimonious jerk would be fun to write. I toyed with the idea for FMC and while I don't think it will work for her, it's cooking in the back of my brain somewhere.

Odile_Blud · Jan 6, 2018

Maybe she's naïve. She doesn't quite understand those who are not "goody-goody" and didn't grow up with a sheltered life. Maybe she even judges them, and throughout the series she can meet people who are not like her and learn more about them, and that sort of gives her a different view of things.

JackieZee · Jan 7, 2018

So, here's where I think your problem lies. NO ONE has had a completely sheltered, happy life. Even if you grow up in a loving family where you lack for nothing, maybe you get picked on by other kids or maybe you have trouble learning to read or maybe you're sick often. Why does she have to have lived a sheltered in which nothing bad has happened to her to become a "goody goody?" Can you give her the non-raging, kind personality that I think you're going for DESPITE having had some difficulties in her life? Maybe nothing TERRIBLY TRAUMATIC has happened, but it's pretty easy if she's the "lawful good" type to give her a life where she's stuck to her guns on the rules even when it cost her friends. Maybe, even, she's ostracised from others because her life is "so good" and people are jealous? All of these things make her feel more real and sympathetic as a character, and also get away from the kind of icky "lawful good pure female" trope that you (and people in this thread) are put off by.

blackcat777 · Jan 7, 2018

I've been rolling with all of these ideas, gutted her backstory, and worked out something different. If she grows up on the magic side, she can deal with being shamed for her human half and forbidden to explore it. Her adoptive parents are well-meaning sanctimonious jerks. I made her a little bit younger, more impulsive, and she'll lie about everything (even pointless trivial things) because she's terrified of having her identity exposed to any person on either side.

That still lets me hang on to all the softness, gentleness, and non-violent aspects that I originally sketched in her character and wanted to preserve.

This works better, too, because all of my other characters (MCs and villain) have something they're ashamed of central to their stories. I boxed myself in because I was only thinking about personal pain relative to deeds committed, and lost sight of other possibilities for FMC.

Spooky · Jan 7, 2018

Nobody gets to be whiter than white without a couple dubious choices, hiccups and eruptions along the way, they'll have a lot of reasons for being a goodie two shoes, unless they've yet to encounter the mud and muppets and could reach a crossroads where they may get a little dirtier than they expected!

indianroads · Jan 8, 2018

If you're writing a character that was born with the proverbial platinum spoon in her mouth, to loving, supportive parents, with siblings that always treated each other with kindness and respect, who is scholastically gifted, in excellent health, and never wanted for anything financially ... I think you must be writing a Fantasy novel. In my experience, a life like that just doesn't exist.

What is it that drives your character to always strive to make perfect choices? Sometimes people who have suffered injustice and pain during childhood turn out to be adults that always do their utmost to follow the straight and narrow. Maybe you character is driven to be the way she is because of something in her past.

Also there is the relativity of good and bad - meaning that what's good for your character may be bad for someone else. Good only exists because of bad - one can't exist without the other. The nature of good and bad is a subject that's fun to poke with a mental stick; it's an interesting subject.

mrsmig · Jan 8, 2018

indianroads said:
If you're writing a character that was born with the proverbial platinum spoon in her mouth, to loving, supportive parents, with siblings that always treated each other with kindness and respect, who is scholastically gifted, in excellent health, and never wanted for anything financially ... I think you must be writing a Fantasy novel. In my experience, a life like that just doesn't exist.

Ouch.

Harlequin · Jan 8, 2018

by writing them well.

I like paladin characters. they're hard to pull off though.

sideshowdarb · Jan 8, 2018

If you're writing a character that was born with the proverbial platinum spoon in her mouth, to loving, supportive parents, with siblings that always treated each other with kindness and respect, who is scholastically gifted, in excellent health, and never wanted for anything financially ... I think you must be writing a Fantasy novel. In my experience, a life like that just doesn't exist.

I could introduce you to some people.

To answer the OP's question, bad things happen to good people - that's the crux of a lot of stories. How good they are is entirely up to you. No one is perfect. To me, the most interesting characters are ones with flaws. These don't have to be glaring or obvious, only consistent with the character.

The Otter · Jan 8, 2018

indianroads said:
If you're writing a character that was born with the proverbial platinum spoon in her mouth, to loving, supportive parents, with siblings that always treated each other with kindness and respect, who is scholastically gifted, in excellent health, and never wanted for anything financially ... I think you must be writing a Fantasy novel. In my experience, a life like that just doesn't exist.

I'm sure they exist, but yeah, I'd say they're a tiny minority. Most people have some kind of difficulty or struggle in their life, even if it's not obvious at first glance.

Harlequin · Jan 8, 2018

Surprisingly, a nice example of a goodie goodie character is Carrot, from Discworld.

He stands out as goodie goodie (so called) because he remains incorruptible and largely irrepressible in the face of difficult events or bad occurrences. That's pretty much the calling card of paladin characters.

Not a book but Daisuke Aurora from Heat Guy J is the same. Just defeats baddie after baddie with overwhelmingly cheerful diligence.

mrsmig · Jan 8, 2018

Harlequin said:
Surprisingly, a nice example of a goodie goodie character is Carrot, from Discworld.

He stands out as goodie goodie (so called) because he remains incorruptible and largely irrepressible in the face of difficult events or bad occurrences. That's pretty much the calling card of paladin characters.

And he's the true heir to the throne of Ankh-Morpork, although he chooses not to claim it. If that's not a complex, deep and interesting "goody-goody" character, I dunno what is.

JJ Litke · Jan 8, 2018

Harlequin said:
Surprisingly, a nice example of a goodie goodie character is Carrot, from Discworld.

He stands out as goodie goodie (so called) because he remains incorruptible and largely irrepressible in the face of difficult events or bad occurrences. That's pretty much the calling card of paladin characters.

mrsmig said:
And he's the true heir to the throne of Ankh-Morpork, although he chooses not to claim it. If that's not a complex, deep and interesting "goody-goody" character, I dunno what is.

Terry Pratchett wrote a number of characters who meet this description. In Unseen Academicals, it's Nutt. I know there are others, but it's been a while since I read them and I'd have to go look them all up again.

JackieZee · Jan 16, 2018

Harlequin said:
by writing them well.

I like paladin characters. they're hard to pull off though.

Sturm Brightblade from the Dragonlance books comes to mind! He wasn't my personal favorite (give me a Raistlin over a Sturm any day), but he was defiintely a goody-goody character that a LOT of people liked.

ETA: And now that I'm thinking about Dragonlance, Crysania is a good example of this type of character who's more like what the OP seems to be trying to get across. In her case it's her goodness that's also her weakness.

Lady Ice · Jan 17, 2018

It sounds like you don’t like this character and if you don’t like her, you won’t be able to write her. There’s a difference between being a ‘goody goody’- people for whom being good is like a badge of honour and they always ensure that they are being good because for them it’s a form of superiority- and being a good person. Nobody is wholly good but there are people who strongly believe in trying to do the right thing because they either have been raised that way or are very empathetic.

Others have said that a way of making her goodness interesting is to test it- find a situation in which goodness is much harder. That way, people will respect the character for sticking to her guns.

Twick · Jan 23, 2018

"Good" characters are no less interesting than bad ones. They have a built-in defect, that they can't solve problems simply by self-interest. An evil warlord taking over the world? Can't just assassinate him. School bully is harassing you? Can't pull a con job to get them expelled. Kids starving? Is it ok to steal? To become a prostitute? To give the kids up for adoption, even though it'll break their hearts? "I want to do and be good, but what *is* good?" is one of the most basic things people struggle with in life. There's plenty of meat there.

I'm not sure what you mean by "purity" though. Virginity? Naiveté about the world? If it's an inherent incapacity to make evil choices, without struggle, that could be a difficult character.

lonestarlibrarian · Jan 23, 2018

It would help if you understood her motivations for being the way she is.

Frequently, with a disciplined character, who keeps control over their words/actions/feelings, they're playing a long game. What's her long game, that makes it worthwhile to her to sacrifice immediate gratification for delayed gratification? That's a hard thing to do--- because immediate gratification is tempting! Shiny! Wow! But what gives her that inner strength to set it aside in preference of---- what?

It's easy to wave a sword around and go questing. It's much harder to conquer your impulses, or your own will, or whatever. It's easy to subjugate a kingdom. It's hard to subjugate yourself.

Once you get a better grasp as to what her long game is-- what's more important to her than the sacrifice of the moment?-- you'll have an easier time with the character, because you'll understand her motivations a little better.

--edit--

Also, it's helpful to remember that "purity" or "virtue" is something that's actively cultivated, not just passive existence. It's not a blank piece of paper that's never been drawn on and is preserved between sheets of glass; it's somehow managing to keep a piece of paper clean and uncrumpled even while it's knocking around in the bottom of your backpack.

It's not a matter of "nothing-bad-has-ever-happened-to-me-so-I'm-perfect", but it's more of a matter of-- "it doesn't matter if something bad happens to me or not; I'm anchored in something else that will help me overcome it." In other words, a virtuous/pure-hearted person is going to have that virtue or purity shine in how they handle stressful situations.

DanielaTorre · Jan 23, 2018

Read The Dangerous Lives of Alter Boys by Chris Fuhrman. Granted, it's a coming of age story, and the main character is a boy, but he's a good kid with interesting friends who views the world in almost cynically though not in an off-putting way.

What I'm saying is that sometimes it's about your character's perception of the world around them that makes them interesting, and not necessarily how they behave.

indianroads · Jan 23, 2018

How do you make pure, sheltered, lawful good characters interesting? I get off on writing twisted, broken characters, who have had all their loved ones murdered before their eyes and/or are missing body parts, so, the light side has me stumped.

You could make her privileged family of origin irradiating. Think of the girls in 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' ... an old movie, probably before your time, but that's what I thought about when I read your initial post.

A friend/rival girl show up wearing a new coat. "oh, that jacket is soo five minutes ago."
She could also complain about her parents giving her a BMW as a graduation present that wasn't in the color she wanted.

Another idea is to tweak the "good" aspect so that it's exaggerated, which would make it annoying.

Yet another thought is to take the viewpoint the good and bad are concepts that are different for each individual. Good for you, might be bad for me.

Twick · Jan 23, 2018

I still would like to know what "purity" means in relationship to this character. I think that could explain a lot of what you're trying to achieve.

The Urban Spaceman · Jan 24, 2018

blackcat777 said:
How do you make pure, sheltered, lawful good characters interesting? I get off on writing twisted, broken characters, who have had all their loved ones murdered before their eyes and/or are missing body parts, so, the light side has me stumped.

IMO, give them a reason to BE good/lawful etc. Maybe they were bullied as a kid, and decided to take the high road and be good because of that. Maybe they had an experience of a kindly benefactor that stuck with them.

How do you GROW your pure characters without destroying their purity? Can you make something interesting and compelling without breaking it? (That sounds like a challenge, right?)

Challenge their perceptions and motives often, I think. Give them struggles to overcome, which justify their purity and goodness.

Clovitide · Jan 24, 2018

I don't know if you've already solved this, seems as if you have, but I've also run into this dilemma. I have this dude who is basically a good-two shoes as well. He wants to be a hero, is super smart, and wants to help people. That's it for him, so I gave him a secret, one I'm not even entirely sure what it is yet. I'm hoping I figure it out before I get to that reveal part. But, I do make him so lawfully good that it causes issues for the MC, and he is the love interest too. Someone already mentioned to make it a struggle for her to stay so morally upright.

Kinda parallel each other, our two characters. Giving her that secret is a good way to make her more interesting, like that demon thing you were talking about Half human, half whatever. I think you already solved your issue.

PyriteFool · Jan 24, 2018

Why do people equate goodness with being boring? I'm not trying to be snarky, I honest to goodness don't understand. I love "goodie two shoes" characters. I like reading about heroes! I'm generally more bored by the dark, tortured, anti-hero types myself. Because compromising your morals (or not having any) is easy. There's not conflict there, and frankly I just don't like hanging out for how ever many hundreds of pages with that kind of person. I like hanging out with good people. And staying true to your morals is often so much more difficult and (to me at least) more interesting. I'll root for someone to remain good and do the right think despite all odds, not for them to shoot their problem in the face. Again, anti-heroes have their place, and I've liked a few in my day, but a character's relative morality isn't what makes them interesting. Their goals, their personalities, and the choices they make are what make them compelling.

So yeah, make your sweetheart character interesting with good motives, her personality, and evolving sense of her own morality, her interactions with others, etc. Demon sex will not (in and of itself) make her interesting.

And seriously, if someone could explain why good characters are considered boring I'd appreciate it. I've heard this so often and I genuinely just don't get it. I fell like I'm being told mice are actually amphibious.

+1 heart for Carrot.

How to make a goodie-goodie character complex, deep, and interesting?

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