Revise & Resubmit Vagueness

JackTorrance · Jan 4, 2018

I recently got a very strange R&R from an agent who had reviewed my full. She gave me some vague notes, some of them contradictory. I responded and politely asked if I could revise and resubmit, and she said yes, but in a very stand-offish way. I don't want to get into specifics in case she reads these threads, but it seemed she liked my concept more than my writing and was not very interested in me as a writer ... and no matter what revisions I make, they would likely not be up to snuff for HER, for HER sensibilities of what a novel should be. It felt like she didn't want revisions but for me to rewrite my entire novel in accordance with HER vision.

If the notes had been more concise and had she shown more excitement, I would be jumping at the chance to do the R&R ... but I really feel she is not going to accept my work no matter what rewrites I do. And I don't want to waste a month or two if someone who has zero intention of representing me and is just being polite, afraid to just say "no." Of course I will take what notes she provided to heart, the ones that made sense, at least. I'll probably end up doing a major rehaul for her, because what other options do I have? But my instinct tells me it will be a waste of time.

Has anyone else run into this situation and how did you handle it? Have you ever just said, "ah, the hell with this agent"?

Maggie Maxwell · Jan 4, 2018

I'd say sit on the notes a bit. In a few days, when the sting's gone down, take another look at them. Actually consider them, whether you plan on resubbing to this agent or not, and figure out if you think any of them might actually improve your novel in accordance with your vision. If so, then apply them. If not, then don't. Don't do an overhaul just for one agent, do it for what's best for your book. Sometimes advice just isn't good for your book, and it's okay to decline it. I can tell you, though, an agent is most likely not too polite to say "no." A considerable portion of their job is saying no. She sees something in your novel. Whether it's the same thing you see or not, I can't say, but she wouldn't have given you notes and agreed to an R&R if she didn't see potential.

Siri Kirpal · Jan 4, 2018

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

What concerns me is that some of the advice is contradictory. I don't think I'd be happy with an agent like that. If some of it would make the book better, do it. Otherwise, go with your gut and pass.

I say this as someone who passed on an R & R that would negate the very reason I did the book. The book in my avatar found another home.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

JackTorrance · Jan 4, 2018

Maggie Maxwell said:
I can tell you, though, an agent is most likely not too polite to say "no." A considerable portion of their job is saying no. She sees something in your novel. Whether it's the same thing you see or not, I can't say, but she wouldn't have given you notes and agreed to an R&R if she didn't see potential.

Great point. Thanks.

Siri Kirpal said:
What concerns me is that some of the advice is contradictory. I don't think I'd be happy with an agent like that. If some of it would make the book better, do it. Otherwise, go with your gut and pass.

I say this as someone who passed on an R & R that would negate the very reason I did the book. The book in my avatar found another home.

This is also what bothers me. It feels like she blazed through the manuscript so fast she didn't actually catch certain details pertinent to the story. I can't say more than that, for reasons of discretion. But I think she was failing to see what kind of narrative I was presenting and simply wanted it to be more to her personal tastes. Don't get me wrong, most of her very curt comments seemed valid. But some were just weird and had to do with her personal tastes and sometimes directly contradicted clear notions set forth in the novel itself. It was kind of disheartening in a odd way. And I have seen plenty of rejection over several industries, so my skin is thick.

I will have to let this sit with me. But every fiber of my soul tells me she is simply not seeing the book how I am. And the quandary comes in the question: Who is right? Just because she's an agent doesn't necessarily mean she is. This is a subjective business we're in.

Davy The First · Jan 4, 2018

The 'tone' of an email is hard to detect. Agents are very, very busy, usually. Your 'curt' might be her 'busy'.

however, the fact you feel such a level of disconnection so soon, suggests this potential relationship will demand quite a bit from you.

Practically, let the hare sit. Aint no rush. Look again at the situation in a week or two (pref two) as another has suggested.

mpack · Jan 4, 2018

JackTorrance said:
I will have to let this sit with me. But every fiber of my soul tells me she is simply not seeing the book how I am. And the quandary comes in the question: Who is right? Just because she's an agent doesn't necessarily mean she is. This is a subjective business we're in.

Have you run the suggested revisions by your beta readers? They may have thoughts on how her vision versus yours worked for the manuscript.

JackTorrance · Jan 4, 2018

mpack said:
Have you run the suggested revisions by your beta readers? They may have thoughts on how her vision versus yours worked for the manuscript.

No. This all happened earlier today.

Putputt · Jan 5, 2018

Davy The First said:
The 'tone' of an email is hard to detect. Agents are very, very busy, usually. Your 'curt' might be her 'busy'.

^^ This. I sometimes receive one-word replies from my agent. Literally. Just an e-mail saying, "Yes!" or "No!" Of course, since my mind is always scurrying into the darkest places possible, these e-mails send me into a delightful little tizzy where I flop very dramatically to the floor and moan that my agent hates my writing and is about to fire me and please just leave me here to die. Then my agent will send along his notes, and it turns out he loves the MS.

So yeaaaa it's hard to judge tone through e-mail.

I agree with everyone who's suggested taking some time to let the comments sink in. And definitely run them by your trusted beta readers. I've received feedback which I initially thought was contradictory, but after discussing with my beta readers, realized it's not necessarily conflicting advice, just phrased differently.

If you still disagree with her advice after taking time to consider them, then don't do them. It's your book. You should always follow your gut.

CameronJohnston · Jan 5, 2018

A tricky one, this. From your posts I'd lead towards not doing the R&R here, if her ideas of what your novel should be don't mesh well with your feelings. Wait a few days and read through all the points again. Do you agree? With how much of it? I would revise the points you do strongly agree with anyway but if you disagree with, say, 50% of her points then I can't see it ever working with this agent.
I'd want an agent enthusiastic over my work, and keen to help make it the best version of its self that it can be rather than make it into something else.

Aggy B. · Jan 5, 2018

Hmmm.

So, yes. An agent won't say yes to an R&R if they aren't willing to look at it again. But, also, she didn't ask for an R&R - you did. She just said she'd look at it if you did it. (And even the agent who ended up sending me the horrible terrible rejection letter was initially very clearly enthusiastic. There was no sense of hesitation or "Yeah, well, I suppose I can take another look.") I would be wary if I were in your shoes.

Secondly, that's still a separate issue from her feedback in general. Does any of what she said regarding the MS make sense? Do any of the notes make you think "Oh, I could do that part better." If so, you should probably make those changes, even if you wind up not sending her the MS to look at again. (And you might try and revise a few parts and decide you don't like the changes and you won't have lost the previous version. It's mostly a question of what resonates and how much work are you willing to do at this point.) And be aware that for some agents if you don't make all the changes they ask for, it will be a no.

I am, actually, a little concerned that you might be dealing with the same agent who sent me the terrible horrible rejection letter. (Whom other authors have had similar issues with.) But I know the chances of that are pretty slim. Haha.

Whatever you do going forward, best of luck.

JackTorrance · Jan 5, 2018

Aggy B. said:
Secondly, that's still a separate issue from her feedback in general. Does any of what she said regarding the MS make sense? Do any of the notes make you think "Oh, I could do that part better." If so, you should probably make those changes, even if you wind up not sending her the MS to look at again.

Yes, about a third of her notes made sense, and I will be revising those portions of my MS.

Aggy B. said:
I am, actually, a little concerned that you might be dealing with the same agent who sent me the terrible horrible rejection letter. (Whom other authors have had similar issues with.) But I know the chances of that are pretty slim. Haha.

LOL! Probably not. She was not rude or "terrible" ... just maddeningly unspecific.

Aggy B. · Jan 5, 2018

JackTorrance said:
LOL! Probably not. She was not rude or "terrible" ... just maddeningly unspecific.

The woman I have in mind did not start out terrible. The rejection was a really nasty piece of work though. (Strangely so, quite frankly. I've gotten a lot of rejections over the past 8 years but none that attacked me as a writer.) And later I spoke with some other folks who had also dealt with her and they mentioned issues of her giving inspecific/inconsistent notes, or wanting revisions based on things they couldn't find in their manuscript. But, I know there are also folks who are perfectly happy with her. *shrug*

Sage · Jan 5, 2018

It's hard to tell from non-named agents whether you've dealt with the same agent in the past, even if parts of the experience sound the same. I have received a very vague R&R and one part of it (which in retrospect I realized was too simple a fix to be in an R&R, thus causing my confusion) led to me go the opposite direction for another part of it than what she wanted. However, I know that this is not the OP's R&R agent because this one will say "no" if you ask if you can R&R for her (as a matter of coincidence, that was the only agent I had ever asked after she had given me notes on an earlier novel).

If she had requested the R&R, my advice would be for you to ask for clarification. But since you approached her after the rejection notes, it suggests that you liked her notes and want to revise based on them, so it would seem weird for you to ask for clarification afterwards.

If the notes don't work for you, there is nothing wrong with just not tackling them. It is a little awkward that you approached her, and she might remember it in the future, but at the same time, agents know that authors might get other notes from other agents that work better for them or a revision just might not work for them, in which case that agent was probably not the best one for that ms anyway.

Aggy B. · Jan 5, 2018

Sage said:
It's hard to tell from non-named agents whether you've dealt with the same agent in the past, even if parts of the experience sound the same.

This is true. It was just one of those things that made me instantly think of this one particular person.

detroitgirl · Jan 5, 2018

I had a handful of R & R's with my current book, and each one had a completely different idea for what the book should be, almost comically so.

It was like a bad flashback to my screenwriting days when 15 people would comb through everything, each with their own conflicting idea! :e2hammer:

Wait to find an agent who believes in your original vision because in the end, agents are representing you as a writer & not just the one book

and that agent is out there, trust me. If you found one who cared enough to give comments and say "yes" to another look, i am certain will find one more suited to you...just my 2 cents

Aggy B. · Jan 5, 2018

detroitgirl said:
I had a handful of R & R's with my current book, and each one had a completely different idea for what the book should be, almost comically so.

It was like a bad flashback to my screenwriting days when 15 people would comb through everything, each with their own conflicting idea!

Wait to find an agent who believes in your original vision because in the end, agents are representing you as a writer & not just the one book and that agent is out there, trust me. If you found one who cared enough to give comments and say "yes" to another look, i am certain will find one more suited to you...just my 2 cents

Egh. Yes and no.

The agent I signed with wanted revisions before he subbed my book. But, he made it clear from the very beginning that he really loved the book, but he thought there were things that were not clear to folks outside of my head and that I could do them better. It was a difference between "I like this, but I think you could fix some things for me," and "I love this, but I want to see more of these things."

I know some folks prefer not to have anyone other than an editor suggesting changes to a manuscript, but I would (personally) be a little worried by an agent who didn't have some thoughts on ways a book could be stronger. I (personally) want someone who will tell me if I bring them something that isn't as good as it could be. (Now, some agents won't do editorial notes, but will also tell you if they think a project is unlikely to sell. They have a reputation to keep up and shopping subpar work to editors will hurt them in the long run.) But if they can't find anything they think needs polishing... I'd consider that a bit of a red flag. (Because I have yet to find an author who produces a manuscript that doesn't need a little more work after input from someone in the business - whether it's an agent or an editor.)

JackTorrance · Jan 5, 2018

detroitgirl said:
Wait to find an agent who believes in your original vision because in the end, agents are representing you as a writer & not just the one book and that agent is out there, trust me. If you found one who cared enough to give comments and say "yes" to another look, i am certain will find one more suited to you...just my 2 cents

Thanks. This helps me ignore the confusion I've been feeling since yesterday. At least a little bit.

Sage · Jan 5, 2018

Somebody will always have a vision for your novel that doesn't align with yours. But an R&R that you should pursue will be in line with your vision, even if it asks for wild changes that are hard to swallow at first. Most books will still need editing at the querying stage, and sometimes an agent wants to make sure that you're willing and able to make those changes, especially if the changes would be extensive. Agents giving opposite advice might not be as contrary as you think. It could signify a problem with the story that has multiple ways to fix it. In that case, identifying the problem and choosing the best way to fix it is your job, but the advice given could be a guide or it could just help you identify the problem.

If an agent (or editor) is offering an R&R, they're seeing something in your novel that they want to pursue, so they should be open to discussing it with you, getting clarification or asking if another solution to a problem they pointed out would work for them.

The OP has a unique case in that the agent did not offer the R&R, and by asking to do one for her based on the notes, the OP has indicated that the notes are something he wants to pursue. That makes it doubly difficult to get clarification: 1) the agent wasn't enthusiastic enough to request the R&R so probably doesn't want to go back and forth on her notes, and 2) the OP's request make it seem like he got the notes. In the future, I would suggest the OP only ask agents if he can do an R&R when the notes are something he really wants to work on, like if he'd work on them even if they said no.

JackTorrance · Jan 5, 2018

Sage said:
The OP has a unique case in that the agent did not offer the R&R, and by asking to do one for her based on the notes, the OP has indicated that the notes are something he wants to pursue. That makes it doubly difficult to get clarification: 1) the agent wasn't enthusiastic enough to request the R&R so probably doesn't want to go back and forth on her notes, and 2) the OP's request make it seem like he got the notes. In the future, I would suggest the OP only ask agents if he can do an R&R when the notes are something he really wants to work on, like if he'd work on them even if they said no.

That is not how it went down at all. I asked her if she was rejecting my submission or offering a R&R, because her email was so vague. I had read the notes, obviously, but had not considered them at great length. I simply wanted to be sure where I stood with her.

But point taken that I should not ask in the future unless the notes/comments are something I can live with.

That being said, the notes would had to have been a lot more detailed, because I am not going to revise based on vague notes and then resubmit, only to hear back: "No, that's not what I had in mind." Because you should have said what you had in mind in the initial R&R request ... literally every change that needs to be made for the manuscript to be good enough to be repped and salable to a publisher. There should be no confusion and no going back-and-forth countless times because one party can't articulate their ideas more clearly. A "I don't know what I want exactly, but this is not it" does not cut it in situations like this. In my filmmaking career, and other artistic endeavors, this ALWAYS leads to confusion and eventual failure and frustration.

Sage · Jan 5, 2018

I'm sorry if I misread the situation, based on you saying you asked if you could revise & resubmit and your perception of her reaction to that question.

JackTorrance · Jan 5, 2018

Sage said:
I'm sorry if I misread the situation, based on you saying you asked if you could revise & resubmit and your perception of her reaction to that question.

I am sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I did not ask her if I could R&R. I had to ask her if her if she was passing or inviting me to do an R&R, because she had not communicated either, only provided notes. It was weird, and to me showed very poor communication skills, which also turned me off.

Sage · Jan 5, 2018

Then she's probably not someone you want to work with, so I wouldn't worry about the R&R at all.

JackTorrance · Jan 5, 2018

Sage said:
Then she's probably not someone you want to work with, so I wouldn't worry about the R&R at all.

I have been thinking about it hard for a full 24 hours, and this is the same conclusion I have come to. I am going to take the notes that made sense, revise my manuscript and move on.

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts.

detroitgirl · Jan 5, 2018

ah thank you Aggy B!! -- you said what i was thinking and left out

i agree there will / should always be some things a good agent wants changed / tightened unless you're.....well, perfect, but nobody's that

i just don't like the massive "let's re-write this together" vibe i got from a few of those R & R's. It's like "we love you, you're perfect, now change!"

JackTorrance · Jan 5, 2018

detroitgirl said:
i just don't like the massive "let's re-write this together" vibe i got from a few of those R & R's. It's like "we love you, you're perfect, now change!"

This x1000

Revise & Resubmit Vagueness

Making Einstein cry since 1994

Swan in Process

Swooping is bad.

permanently suctioned to Buz's leg

Great Old One

Not as sweet as you think

Not as sweet as you think

Supreme Guessinator

Not as sweet as you think

way out west

Not as sweet as you think

Supreme Guessinator

Supreme Guessinator

Supreme Guessinator

way out west