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Starting a novel with a prologue

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blacbird

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I have long been of the opinion (expressed in other "prologue" threads) that, as a writer, a prologue ought not to be the first thing you write for a novel. That just seems to me to be a recipe for info-dump, and I've seen many of those kinds of things in manuscripts I've critiqued. It gets quickly to be an exercise in "But-the-reader-needs-to-know-this-in-order-to-understand-the-story" thinking, which is a deadly trap for a writer. Ideally, a prologue should be about the last part of a story that you write, and then if and only if there is a clear need for one, based on the story that exists.

caw
 

morngnstar

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I'm an unproven/unpublished author. In hindsight, I can see why it is a detriment to have it in one's first attempt at a novel. I shall leave it out.

No reason you can't write a prologue as a new author. It just better be good. It can't be merely necessary. It must be engaging.
 

Enlightened

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morngnstar: I agree. For me, it is best I leave it out. For other, first-time authors, it can be different.
 

joeyc

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It's an argument I've had with myself over my current WIP. Because I do have a Prologue, and I've been doing research and I know agents hate it.
 

mccardey

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It's an argument I've had with myself over my current WIP. Because I do have a Prologue, and I've been doing research and I know agents hate it.

It might not be a bad idea to mention genre here. From my reading, it seems that some agents see a lot of prologue-as-infodump in specific genres - otherworld books, where the new writer can feel the whole setup needs to be explained in minute detail over pages and pages before the story actually starts. I can see that being a problem. But that's not to say prologues are bad, or agents hate prologues or all prologues are info-dumps - or even that all prologues are bad in otherworld novels.

I'm with lizmonster on this. Prologue is perfectly perfect when it's done well, when it's what's needed. It isn't superfluous, and nor is it Chapter One. A prologue is prologue. If a reader takes the position that they never read the prologue that's not saying anything about the prologue - how can it possibly be, if the reader admits not reading the prologue? At most, it says something about the reader.

I feel like poor little Prologue is being misunderstood, and dare I say - bullied. And I'm Not Impressed. :granny:
 

mccardey

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I have long been of the opinion (expressed in other "prologue" threads) that, as a writer, a prologue ought not to be the first thing you write for a novel. That just seems to me to be a recipe for info-dump, and I've seen many of those kinds of things in manuscripts I've critiqued. It gets quickly to be an exercise in "But-the-reader-needs-to-know-this-in-order-to-understand-the-story" thinking, which is a deadly trap for a writer. Ideally, a prologue should be about the last part of a story that you write, and then if and only if there is a clear need for one, based on the story that exists.

caw

Oh, I missed this.

+1
 

Laer Carroll

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... a prologue ought not to be the first thing you write for a novel.
The first thing you write should be ANYTHING you want, whatever helps you launch into what will be a long and sometimes difficult process. Start with a 50-page info dump if that helps. Start with a prologue, a poem, a newspaper article, a picture of a monkey masturbating. We can always kill it on a rewrite. We should almost always do a rewrite after letting the story sit for long enough to get perspective on it, even if the rewrite turns out to be just fine-tuning an already good job.

Prologues are just another tool in our writer's toolbox. Doing them well is a necessary part of being a pro, and a lot of good suggestions have been offered in this thread on how to do that.

As for them being a literary avalanche in recent years, I'm a voracious and wide reader especially of SF and fantasy, and I've not seen this phenomenon. I suspect the perception of one is an urban myth. When I have seen them they have almost always been well done and a necessary and compelling part of the book. It's a rare editor who will let a piece of trash begin the books they are editing.

[Agents] only hate [a prologue] if it's bad.

Good point. Any agent who categorically bans prologues would give me the impression s/he is not very smart.
 
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morngnstar

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The first thing you write should be ANYTHING you want, whatever helps you launch into what will be a long and sometimes difficult process. Start with a 50-page info dump if that helps. Start with a prologue, a poem, a newspaper article, a picture of a monkey masturbating. We can always kill it on a rewrite.

I think the intent was that the prologue you publish shouldn't be the first thing that you wrote.
 

joeyc

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It might not be a bad idea to mention genre here. From my reading, it seems that some agents see a lot of prologue-as-infodump in specific genres - otherworld books, where the new writer can feel the whole setup needs to be explained in minute detail over pages and pages before the story actually starts. I can see that being a problem. But that's not to say prologues are bad, or agents hate prologues or all prologues are info-dumps - or even that all prologues are bad in otherworld novels.

I'm with lizmonster on this. Prologue is perfectly perfect when it's done well, when it's what's needed. It isn't superfluous, and nor is it Chapter One. A prologue is prologue. If a reader takes the position that they never read the prologue that's not saying anything about the prologue - how can it possibly be, if the reader admits not reading the prologue? At most, it says something about the reader.

I feel like poor little Prologue is being misunderstood, and dare I say - bullied. And I'm Not Impressed. :granny:

In my case, it involves both of the main characters, but it can't be Chapter One since it chronologically takes place at the end.
 

mccardey

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In my case, it involves both of the main characters, but it can't be Chapter One since it chronologically takes place at the end.
It can't be Chapter One anyway. That's not what Prologue is - or what Prologue does. That's Chapter One's job.
 

lizmonster

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It can't be Chapter One anyway. That's not what Prologue is - or what Prologue does. That's Chapter One's job.

I've been trying to think of a workable analogy. Maybe this: a prologue is an arm, and a chapter is a leg. They're similar, and they share a lot of structure, but they serve two different functions.
 

mccardey

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That's not bad. And people who don't read prologue effectively decide that an arm is a thing they've taken against and wouldn't use and nobody else should have one, either. Because they only like shoes. Or something.
 

lizmonster

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You know, this question comes up an awful lot. I wonder if a better question would be "What makes a good prologue?" Because so often people see the word "prologue" and immediately leap to "pedantic infodump" which 99.9%* of the time isn't going to belong anywhere in a book (except possibly a textbook).

And there are multiple types of prologues that do​ work.

*I don't say 100%, because I know somebody's going to trot out some prologue from some fabulous epic fantasy I haven't read just to prove me wrong.
 

Harlequin

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There's a difference between published and unpublished books, as well, if I can say that without sounding mean.

I've seen a lot of prologues this past year for SFF, in a few of the fb groups I'm in. I can hand on heart say I thought all of them were unnecessary/starting in the wrong place, and almost every time the author insists "but how else can I explain ____ about my worldbuilding" etc. Well, that's the challenge of sff. One I read recently was literally someone being given a coming of age verbal exam to explain the magic system and the history of the world. No, just no.

so yeah, I see great prologues in novels sometimes. but in the context of unpublished authors, they're more often a pit to fall into. I'd put them in the same category as the Waking Up With Amnesia opener (perfect in Amber, deadly for most new writers). I don't feel bad about trying to talk people out of either when I can't see good reason for them.
 

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Okay, look, this is the Basic Writing Advice forum, so the audience for this is going to be largely newbies. So to that extent, it makes sense to tailor the advice to that audience. But stating without prejudice that prologues are always to be avoided is bad advice.

If I were to walk into an audio forum and state, unequivocally, that an exciter should never be used, then that wouldn't be the worst advice ever for a new producer. You can screw up a lot using a tool that you don't understand. You can make things a lot worse.

But almost certainly someone would pop up and give a list of chart-topping hits that had exciters on the master buss. Then pro engineers who worked on those hits might turn up to explain why they used those techniques.*

So what is the poor new producer to think?

'kay, maybe one person ever will understand that analogy (and is about to argue with me over the merits or lack thereof of the harmonic exciter), but the point is: there are tools for the job, and it's the job of a creator to understand what those tools are, when to use them, and how not to use them.

Yes, it's much simpler to say to an inexperienced audience, "just stay away from certain techniques", because they might fuck up. It takes a lot longer to explain "here's why this technique can be complex to use, and here are some examples that show good and bad usage". So I get why that happens. But it is still bad advice.


* I have seen variations on this so many times. Multiband compression is a good one. :Headbang:
 

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I've been trying to think of a workable analogy. Maybe this: a prologue is an arm, and a chapter is a leg. They're similar, and they share a lot of structure, but they serve two different functions.
I feel more like it's the main body of the novel is your legs and the prologue is your shoes. When you walk across the living room, it helps to have legs, but shoes aren't needed. Some people don't allow shoes in their living room, others do. Some insist that they could not possible walk in their living room without shoes. But to walk across your living room, it's the legs that you really need. Shoes are an extra layer you put on the ends.

(I'm aware that this is an ablest analogy)

Okay, look, this is the Basic Writing Advice forum, so the audience for this is going to be largely newbies. So to that extent, it makes sense to tailor the advice to that audience. But stating without prejudice that prologues are always to be avoided is bad advice.
I don't think anybody is using such absolutes.
 

lizmonster

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I'm aware that this is a drum I beat a lot and is probably deathly dull for most, so feel free to skip.

There's a difference between published and unpublished books, as well, if I can say that without sounding mean.

I don't think it's mean at all. I think it's actually part of the point. The stuff that you don't publish is still in flux. You're still working it out. 99% of it is going to suck, and that's true if you're a newbie just starting out, or if you're JK Rowling. (She had a wonderful tweet on the subject yesterday.)

I've seen a lot of prologues this past year for SFF, in a few of the fb groups I'm in. I can hand on heart say I thought all of them were unnecessary/starting in the wrong place, and almost every time the author insists "but how else can I explain ____ about my worldbuilding" etc. Well, that's the challenge of sff. One I read recently was literally someone being given a coming of age verbal exam to explain the magic system and the history of the world. No, just no.

This isn't a prologue problem. This is a problem (that yes, is very common for fantasy writers in particular) with worldbuilding. As in: This isn't how you do it. You are not writing an encyclopedia. You, the author, may care very much about the intricacies of your magic system, but your reader just wants to be entertained. (When you DO become Rowling, you may publish your own Guide To The Big Magic System and it will sell madly.)

so yeah, I see great prologues in novels sometimes. but in the context of unpublished authors, they're more often a pit to fall into. I'd put them in the same category as the Waking Up With Amnesia opener (perfect in Amber, deadly for most new writers). I don't feel bad about trying to talk people out of either when I can't see good reason for them.

But you're talking about two different things here. You're talking about a specific dramatic setup vs. a piece of narrative structure. To haul out another awful analogy: it's like telling your friend she can't wear dresses when really she just looks awful in that yellow one.

Infodumps are (almost always) bad. Infodump prologues are (almost always) bad. (Almost) everyone looks lousy in yellow.

'kay, maybe one person ever will understand that analogy (and is about to argue with me over the merits or lack thereof of the harmonic exciter), but the point is: there are tools for the job, and it's the job of a creator to understand what those tools are, when to use them, and how not to use them.

For me, this is exactly it: you have to use the tools badly before you can learn how to use them well. You have to write a boatload of lousy prologues before you figure out how to write a good one. (The original prologue I wrote for my first book was eviscerated so badly on SYW that I stopped writing for three days. It was deadly dull and they were completely right.)

The thing that always tweaks me about the "prologues BAD" argument is that it always ends up focused on what agents will think, or what editors will think, like the word PROLOGUE on your partial will make an agent throw it out. (And I'm not going to argue that there aren't agents who would just stop at the word PROLOGUE, although I'd hope a professional would at least try a few paragraphs. FWIW I'm also aware of agents who get irritated as hell if they discover you've left out your prologue, because they want to read the book from the start.)

IMO that kind of thinking can absolutely choke your creativity, because instead of focusing on what's best for telling this particular story, you're focusing on some non-existent formula for getting published.

Writing, like most art forms, is honed through practice, and that means you're going to write a lot of words that will never, ever, ever see the light of day, even if you end up massively successful someday. So maybe instead of viewing every story as something we have to jam into a mold that will give it the Best Chance To Get Published, we should just...have fun. Play with prologues. Play with tense, POV, surrealism, structure. The most amazing stuff can happen when you're playing.

(Also, modulo some genre rules, there is no mold, and deliberately trying to make your work more conventional isn't going to make you stand out from the crowd.)

I feel more like it's the main body of the novel is your legs and the prologue is your shoes. When you walk across the living room, it helps to have legs, but shoes aren't needed. Some people don't allow shoes in their living room, others do. Some insist that they could not possible walk in their living room without shoes. But to walk across your living room, it's the legs that you really need. Shoes are an extra layer you put on the ends.

(I'm aware that this is an ablest analogy)

(Yeah, my arm/leg analogy was ableist as well, and I apologize for that - I will do better.)

See, I don't really agree with this. I do think some stories need prologues, or they're fundamentally not the same story.

I've read some prologues that work OK but aren't really necessary (just read a series book where the author used the prologue to summarize the three years between the end of the last book and this one, but while that was convenient it was entirely unnecessary for the understanding and enjoyment of the rest of the book), but sometimes they serve a critical purpose.
 

Harlequin

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The reason why I tend to suggest they try other methods is to get people to look at the MS from a different angle.

It's very easy to get stuck in a rut of "But this CAN'T be told any other way, I HAVE to show _____ worldbuilding with a prologue" and even if, ultimately, that is the best way of doing so, it's rarely (maybe never) true that it will be the only way.

Even if an industry professional gives a stamp of approval to a worldbuilding prologue (or any prologue), it's still almost certainly the case that trying convey the information differently (for a new writer) will result in a story which is less dependent on the info in said prologue (because over dependency is really the problem) and besides, a lot of information benefits from gentle reminders throughout the story. I would second blacbird's statement that a prologue probably stands to gain from being written later in the process rather than sooner.

I mentioned before I was once advised by a dev editor to write a worldbuilding prologue for an earlier MS. But I think an element of personality comes into this; I don't read a lot of books which have prologues even if very complicated, and you ultimately write what you read. I like steep learning curves, being slightly baffled for 80% of the book, and maybe occasionally referring to my plot notes.

Either way I don't think it's about fitting into genre conventions (since conventionally they're relatively common, still).
 

lizmonster

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The reason why I tend to suggest they try other methods is to get people to look at the MS from a different angle.

Once again, though, the problem you're seeing (and, I think, rightly suggesting different approaches to) is not a prologue. It's worldbuilding. They're not the same thing (despite the fact that prologues are often used for worldbuilding).

Either way I don't think it's about fitting into genre conventions (since conventionally they're relatively common, still).

I wasn't talking about prologues as a genre convention. (I think they're not, although they're more common in some genres than others.) I was talking about more inviolable genre conventions, like HEA/HFN in romance, and a central mystery/solution in MTS.
 

Harlequin

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Oh right, my bad.

and yes, it is a worldbuilding problem, but getting rid of a worldbuilding prologue (or at least looking at cutting it back) can be a good solution. Someone is perhaps less likely to try and dispense the information differently if they already have what they believe is a perfectly suitable method, ie a fantasy history lesson prefacing their book :p

ANyway we're down to splitting hairs at this point.
 

blacbird

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There's a difference between published and unpublished books, as well, if I can say that without sounding mean..

You can, and it is entirely true. Nearly all my hesitations about prologues come from manuscripts I've critiqued, not from commercially published books. So that's the issue I respond to.

Regarding "worldbulding" prologues, I also agree with you. A writer can build a world as much as desired; but the reader doesn't need to see the worldbuilding process. The reader needs to experience the world, vicariously, through the lens of the story.

caw
 
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indianroads

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At the end of the day, it's your story so just tell it the way it comes to you, or the way you want.

Personally, I find 'info-dump' prologues annoying. However, a prologue that is a scene that will act as a trigger that kicks off the story is good. That's just my POV though - as I said, it's your story.
 

Laer Carroll

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Grump. Enough with the analogies. They confuse me and make me feel stupid and that makes me grumpy(er).

Let's start instead with the definition. A PRO-logue is what goes BEFORE the main story, just as an EPI-logue is what goes AFTER the main story.

It can be anything your artist's intuition tells you it should be. A quote. A poem. A newspaper article. A picture of a monkey masturbating. (I kind of advise against that one.)

Or world DESCRIPTION. Not world BUILDING. (Grump.) Building is a process. It properly goes on behind the curtain, off stage, under the table, hidden from the hand which is waving around getting all the attention. You should never show how you do a magic trick - or create a locale/world/universe. Do that in your first draft if that helps you create a story, delete it when you rewrite.

World descriptions most often work best when they are short at story beginning, then snuck in tiny bit by tiny bit throughout the entire story.

The best prologue I ever read is this.

Bethany Rossiter had been a fairly ordinary girl before she died and came back to life. A loving mid-scale family, only moderately broken (no tug-of-kids drama, mostly friendly parents). Pretty, but not super-pretty. Good student, she was a better cheerleader. Until she died, that is.

"I think all your entourage is here," said Beth's friend, peering out of the shadowed exit from the gym at the football field. She bounced on her white tennis shoes, her short blue-and-white pleated cheerleader's skirt ....

(I wrote it. Naturally I think it's the best.) Beam. Strut around the room.
 
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