How many words per chapter should upper middle grade books have?

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ForeverYoursCaffiene

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I'm wondering if there's a recommendation for how many words per chapter there should be for upper middle grade books (11-12 year olds). While I don't think it matters for YA+ books, I imagine older kids only have 20-30 minutes to read at a time. I keep two scenes max per chapter. Just want to makes sure I'm in the green.

In my case, this is what I currently have for the first four chapters:

Chapter 1: 4800 words
Chapter 2: 4300 words
Chapter 3: 4300 words
Chapter 4: 4200 words

Thanks!
 
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playground

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While I don't think there is a "standard" for chapter lengths, those do seem pretty long. With the assumption of 250 words a page, your first chapter is clocking in at close to 20 pages. I think of Epic Fantasy when I think of that type of length. How many chapters do you plan to have?
 

ForeverYoursCaffiene

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My page setup is close to a book's size. It'a also approx 20 pages per chapter.

I plan to have 15-20 chapters the way I'm going right now, but I'm flexible with continuing until the story ends. It's in a fantasy middle-grade category, and nowhere in an epic scale of Harry Potter. It's a sequel though aimed to be standalone. I'm aiming for 50-55k words.

Based on the first three chapters:
Chapter 1: There are two scenes that are somewhat related but can be separated if need be into two chapters.
Chapter 2: There is a long conversation while the MC is getting prepared for his new life. His preparation steps could be reduced and the conversation if need be.
Chapter 3: This is the main action chapter that sets off the rest of the story. I don't think I can reduce this one.
 
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Bufty

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Unless a particular publisher has their own stated preference, chapters are as long or as short as you wish them to be, and mine are whatever length they need to be to attain the chapter goal.

I would concentrate upon content, clarity, and flow, and not length.
 
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playground

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Unless a particular publisher has their own stated preference, chapters are as long or as short as you wish them to be, and mine are whatever length they need to be to attain the chapter goal.

I would concentrate upon content, clarity, and flow, and not length.


I agree, the only thing is when I think of all the MG fantasies I've read I can't think of any that consistently clock in at 20 pages outside of the Harry Potters. Brandon Mull has some pretty lengthy and epic scales of books and I think those clock in at like tenish pages. I wonder if publishers might have preference with the length as it seems based on the books I've read (mainly MG high fantasy, and I am by no means one to speak for the whole genre or all MG writers) that publishers might prefer shorter chapters.

But, at the end of the day, that is just conjecture and your statement rings true. If the lengths matter, the publisher will let the writer know. So, best thing to do is just write the best story you can.

The ONLY hesitancy I have is if they are continually at 20 pages, a lot is probably going on/a lot of information is being provided to the reader which might be too much at once OR a lot of descriptions are being written. Neither of which can really be determined until beta reads. I do worry it might be a bit of overload with sticking too many scenes in a chapter. But at the end of the day, if the writing engages the reader, that's all that matters.

Interesting thing to think about though.
 

playground

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My page setup is close to a book's size. It'a also approx 20 pages per chapter.

I plan to have 15-20 chapters the way I'm going right now, but I'm flexible with continuing until the story ends. It's in a fantasy middle-grade category, and nowhere in an epic scale of Harry Potter. It's a sequel though aimed to be standalone. I'm aiming for 50-55k words.

Based on the first three chapters:
Chapter 1: There are two scenes that are somewhat related but can be separated if need be into two chapters.
Chapter 2: There is a long conversation while the MC is getting prepared for his new life. His preparation steps could be reduced and the conversation if need be.
Chapter 3: This is the main action chapter that sets off the rest of the story. I don't think I can reduce this one.


So I clearly haven't read your material, so take this with a grain of sand, but what I bolded worries me a tad. The conversation isn't used as exposition to just straight up explain what's happening right? You also don't want thousands of words of the MC packing to get going either. You'd just want the most important things and make it snappier to keep it fast-paced and tense.

Again, I am speaking while half-blinded here, so it might work perfectly in how you wrote it. Just something to mull over.
 

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The very first thing any publishing professional told me was to cut down my chapters. This was my eventual agent during her R&R request to me. So even though there's always the classic "there are no rules" etc, I do think you want to make reading not appear intimidating to young readers. Also as someone who writes with reluctant readers in mind, I think shorter chapters are better to keep people reading. Short chapters give the reader not just a sense of accomplishment, but actually make readers want to keep reading on as in "Oh just one more chapter."

With all that in mind . . . I usually don't exceed 2K per chapter, though lengths do vary. I also think it's not a big deal to make chapters shorter. Because another thing my soon to be agent suggested when she told me I had to cut down chapter length was to have a few cliffhangers at the end of some of the chapters. So really, you can kill two birds with one stone: split a chapter in half you get two short chapters AND a cliffhanger since you've split a scene in half. You talk about a long conversation (which I must confess also worries me as an info dump but that's not the point right now), well that's not a big deal. Find a moment in the dialogue where one person says something like, "And this is the most important thing . . ." or something and cut the chapter there. :)

So yeah. In conclusion: without reading your work I say cut your chapters. But you don't have to cut out words necessarily, you can just put in a chapter break in the middle. It's sort of cheating, but it works, so it isn't really.
 
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ForeverYoursCaffiene

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Thanks for all the thoughts. I'll go ahead and cut the chapters and provide cliffhangers. I also can't stand long chapters when I read :) I've always solved this with scene breaks, but sometimes it is better to just create a new chapter if it doesn't rely too much on the previous.
 

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Short chapters give the reader not just a sense of accomplishment, but actually make readers want to keep reading on as in "Oh just one more chapter."

Shouldn't the actual story be reward enough to make the reader continue without constantly feeding them a succession of artificial accomplishments? It says much about a society's literacy when reading six pages of large print makes an 11 year old deserve (or crave) a special cookie. Shouldn't we trust in (and thus, challenge) children's abilities a little more? But then, that's a different topic altogether...
 

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Has it ever been otherwise though? Dickens wrote novels at epic lengths not because the story dictated but because originally they were divided into short chunks in the paper and he made more money the more words he wrote. He also wrote sensational plots that ended such serialized sections on cliffhangers to keep readers looking forward to the next part. Shakespeare wrote not just truth and beauty but also sucking up to whatever monarch at the time. He also wrote scenes specifically for certain actors and gags that he knew would please the groundlings. He also always started his plays with an "action" scene so as to draw the boisterous audience's attention and get them to quiet down, before then following it with a second scene which was usually a more small intimate one.

This idea of story alone ignore the centuries of craft, of writing in a manner that is compelling, that inspires a reader to turn a page. Two people could tell the exact same story and one could be as dull as dishwater and the other exciting and page turning. What is the "actual" story, when it comes down to it? I mean, how far should we go? Should we get rid of punctuation then, seeing as that was just added to make reading easier to follow?

You can "challenge" a child all you want. That is a fair goal and I applaud you for it. Mine is different. I want a child to read. More than that, I want them to get excited by reading. I want them to turn the page. I will use whatever it takes, including humour, good writing, compelling stories, and, yes, even structure. And if you think that story structure is artificial, then be guest: toss out the rule of three, the three act structure, climax and denouement, the concept of pacing and timing, and quite frankly paragraphs and chapters in general. There are writers in the past who have done it, and done it to great effect. Though they are usually the exception.

Write how you want to, enjoy it, do what inspires you and you hope inspires others. But please don't criticize writers who write the way they do. Who have had teachers come up to them to thank them for inspiring their students to read, who had a mother after said author finishes signing a book for her son tell her that her son never wants a book usually and that this was so special. Who had a different mother share that mine was the first book her son ever read himself, that he stopped playing a video game for. Don't tell me that such a thing is bad and that I don't "trust" the abilities of children. I have great faith in children. My writing never talks down, in fact I was complimented by a teacher for my choice of vocabulary, how clever she thought I was for writing with an elevated vocabulary in a page turning action adventure story. But on top of that, I also am a realist. Reading is not the primary source of entertainment for children anymore, and it will never be (short of a massive event that destroys all other forms of technology). And I am also a reluctant reader myself. And I'll tell you that being "challenged" never got me interested in a book over watching television or a film. But being able to get excited, and to laugh, and to feel safe in the hands of an author who respected me enough to want me to be entertained first and foremost and not "educated", did.

I take no issue with your personal goals, but please do not criticize my accomplishments as somehow lesser or cowtowing. I am very proud of them and you can't diminish them. No matter how much you'd like to evidently.
 
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Just in my personal reading, I notice lots of books with short chapters recently. Seems to be a style choice that works for many.
 

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Toothpaste,

something about my post clearly set you off. Nowhere did I criticise you personally, your style of writing or your craft or achievements. It seemed obvious to me that my posting was a general observation, that was the way it was intended anyway.

You're using a slippery slope argument; I merely mused about the length of chapters, not about doing away with all structure.
 

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Yes something did set me off, well noted. You might have made a general observation but it was about a specific technique and you thought it was a negative. Well many of us use that technique (and you knew I did, considering you were replying to what I wrote), so of course someone like me will take that as a personal criticism, since you are directly criticizing something I personally do. So while you might not have intentionally directed anything at me (despite quoting me before saying your general observation), you were saying what I chose to do was a negative. And I will of course come back to defend that choice.

You might wish to consider that in future when you make other "general" observations. That you are on a forum with many writers of many kinds. There is nothing wrong with you making such an observation, but do understand others might disagree and take issue with it and respond in kind (and with what I think was rather well reasoned and well argued, and to which you had no response other than to my attitude, not my points I'll add).

As to a slippery slope: you called this particular kind of structure artificial and a pity. Also implied that writers who did it didn't trust that their story alone could keep someone compelled. I was curious what makes one kind of structure unacceptable whereas others are okay since you took such an issue with this particular one. After all structure exists to elicit specific responses from readers, building pace and tension, three acts, climax etc. An exclamation mark vs a question mark. It all exists as tools for authors to make readers feel things. Why is a short chapter or a cliffhanger artificial and the others not?
 
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ForeverYoursCaffiene

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At the least in the US, I noticed young students are more into how many AR points they can earn more than what chapter they're on. They'll read a book with long chapters if it offers hundreds of AR points. After reading, the kids zoom to the computers and start a short quiz to earn their AR points for reading. AR points are used in schools to encourage reading and get points, like an external reward (I think internal rewards are better?). When I introduced my book to groups of kids, the first question sometimes is, "How many AR points is it?" I have to encourage them to read it if it's something they know they'll enjoy, rather than how many points one gets for reading. I'm kind of happy I didn't register my book for offering AR points, and I'm happy kids check it out anyway in their school libraries.

At any rate, I'm not a great reader either, and I'm always checking to see how many pages there are until the end of the chapter. As a kid, 20 pages would definitely turn me off. My prequel was 10-13 pages per chapter because it was for 10-11 year olds. I guess I made the second book feel more in depth assuming a grade level higher to read it (6th graders). It's still important to not overkill, and those are areas I'm looking to cut down on. I'll aim for 10-12 pages per chapter and/or less than 2k words.

Toothpaste: I like the humor in your book Explorers, by the way. Keep it up!
 
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ForeverYoursCaffiene

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Okay, I think this is better now...

CH1: 1454 words, 7 pages
CH2: 1571 words, 10 pages
CH3: 1838 words, 9 pages
CH4: 2029 words, 10 pages
CH5: 2301 words, 12 pages

And the rest of the chapters are 2k or less.
 
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Okay, I think this is better now...

CH1: 1454 words, 7 pages
CH2: 1571 words, 10 pages
CH3: 1838 words, 9 pages
CH4: 2029 words, 10 pages
CH5: 2301 words, 12 pages

And the rest of the chapters are 2k or less.


I think those are good stats. I'm a huge believer in lean books and screenplays. Keep it tight.
 

ForeverYoursCaffiene

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Now I'm worried about my chapters that I split into two. In the past, I've always heard that a chapter is its own story within the greater scope. Now it feels like that chapter begins, but it fails to deliver it's final built-up moment. It falls short with a cheap cliffhanger. It feels like the chapter fails to deliver its final punch. It also looks like the scene got intentionally split into two chapters. A reader may wonder where the first split chapter is going. I'm wondering if I should just restore the chapters at this point and just focus on storytelling again. And finally just let the agent decide if a few of these chapters are too long (which is really just 4 out of the rest). Or I just have the wrong impression of what chapters are: something that just moves the story forward inch by inch, or have its own story within the greater scope. But if it's common for scenes to split based on a cliffhanger, maybe it's fine.

This is good to know... Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows has sometimes 20+ pages in each chapter. Maybe I should just write my chapters as I see fit, keep in mind of 2k words or less as much as possible in each chapter, and let the agent worry about chapter lengths. It's an upper middle grade book, so like HP's advanced book, the readers will probably survive if it's interesting. But that's all dependent on the agent's requirements anyway. I love editing, but I'll just focus on making the story as best as I can for now.
 
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ForeverYoursCaffiene

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The ONLY hesitancy I have is if they are continually at 20 pages, a lot is probably going on/a lot of information is being provided to the reader which might be too much at once OR a lot of descriptions are being written. Neither of which can really be determined until beta reads. I do worry it might be a bit of overload with sticking too many scenes in a chapter. But at the end of the day, if the writing engages the reader, that's all that matters.

Interesting thing to think about though.

I focus a lot on dialogue, so I'm thinking my conversation scenes are just long, but engaging still. I often use dialog to give the reader story-driven information of the world rather than just telling the reader paragraph after paragraph. It's just how I keep action flowing.
 
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It's completely up to you and you know your work best. Ultimately you have to decide, none of us can do that for you (though when you get to 50 posts, you could post some of your work here for some thoughts).

I will say I'm not entirely sure what you mean by your definition of a chapter. One scene can happen over multiple chapters, and a chapter can also tell one scene. You aren't writing a short story anthology where every chapter needs to have a beginning middle and end in such a structured way. Honestly, there is something to be said about feeling it. About asking yourself, "Does this feel like the end of a chapter to me?"

Also Harry Potter is not the best thing to compare to as by the time Rowling got to the later books she was one of the most popular authors in the world. She could get away with things others of us cannot, and has herself admitted she wished she'd edited Order of the Phoenix better. And honestly, it doesn't exactly serve your argument either because if there's one thing she was rather critiqued for in those later works . . . it's length. For the record, I also write upper MG, and like to stick to the shorter chapters thing. Something else to keep in mind is if you do indeed want to go with longer chapters that is something you are going to have to sell an agent on. So you will, in some ways, have to be even better than say an author with a more average length of chapter for their work because you will be judged more carefully for making that choice. I speak from experience but in a different sense. My first MG was twice as long as the average at 80K. My editor said it was fine it was so long, but because of that we had to be extra diligent that every single word had earned its position because I was writing as an exception not the rule. Also keep in mind you will be querying often the beginning of your work. Sure the chapters might get shorter, but an agent isn't starting off reading those shorter chapters. She's reading the longer ones.

Anyway, these are all things to keep in mind, and not me saying "No, don't do it!" :) Make an informed decision, with all the facts, and then go from there. If your chapters do have to be as long as they are then that's what they have to be. And if it works it works. And when something works, agents and editors snap it up.

(one last thing, when you split your chapter in two, you usually can't just literally do it and move on. Usually at least an extra sentence at the end of the first of the two chapters needs to be added to make the ending feel like an end to a chapter, sometimes even a paragraph. Sometimes too at the start of the next one you'll need a little extra as well. Here's an example I just made up.

Original chapter:

"Now that takes us to the next thing."
"What's the next thing?"
"Well next you'll have to fight the dragon in the castle, see . . ."

New split chapter:

"Now that takes us to the next thing."
There was a next thing? Of course. John was getting seriously tired of next things quite frankly. Maybe he wasn't actually ready to be the King's personal body guard after all. He sighed.
"What's the next thing?" he asked, really not looking forward to the answer.

Chapter 2

The old man gave him a wink and leaned in. ""Well next you'll have to fight the dragon in the castle, see . . ."


Or you know, something like that :) , hopefully you get my meaning.)
 
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ForeverYoursCaffiene

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It's completely up to you and you know your work best. Ultimately you have to decide, none of us can do that for you (though when you get to 50 posts, you could post some of your work here for some thoughts).

I will say I'm not entirely sure what you mean by your definition of a chapter. One scene can happen over multiple chapters, and a chapter can also tell one scene. You aren't writing a short story anthology where every chapter needs to have a beginning middle and end in such a structured way. Honestly, there is something to be said about feeling it. About asking yourself, "Does this feel like the end of a chapter to me?"

Also Harry Potter is not the best thing to compare to as by the time Rowling got to the later books she was one of the most popular authors in the world. She could get away with things others of us cannot, and has herself admitted she wished she'd edited Order of the Phoenix better. And honestly, it doesn't exactly serve your argument either because if there's one thing she was rather critiqued for in those later works . . . it's length. For the record, I also write upper MG, and like to stick to the shorter chapters thing. Something else to keep in mind is if you do indeed want to go with longer chapters that is something you are going to have to sell an agent on. So you will, in some ways, have to be even better than say an author with a more average length of chapter for their work because you will be judged more carefully for making that choice. I speak from experience but in a different sense. My first MG was twice as long as the average at 80K. My editor said it was fine it was so long, but because of that we had to be extra diligent that every single word had earned its position because I was writing as an exception not the rule. Also keep in mind you will be querying often the beginning of your work. Sure the chapters might get shorter, but an agent isn't starting off reading those shorter chapters. She's reading the longer ones.

Anyway, these are all things to keep in mind, and not me saying "No, don't do it!" :) Make an informed decision, with all the facts, and then go from there. If your chapters do have to be as long as they are then that's what they have to be. And if it works it works. And when something works, agents and editors snap it up.

(one last thing, when you split your chapter in two, you usually can't just literally do it and move on. Usually at least an extra sentence at the end of the first of the two chapters needs to be added to make the ending feel like an end to a chapter, sometimes even a paragraph. Sometimes too at the start of the next one you'll need a little extra as well. Here's an example I just made up.

Original chapter:

"Now that takes us to the next thing."
"What's the next thing?"
"Well next you'll have to fight the dragon in the castle, see . . ."

New split chapter:

"Now that takes us to the next thing."
There was a next thing? Of course. John was getting seriously tired of next things quite frankly. Maybe he wasn't actually ready to be the King's personal body guard after all. He sighed.
"What's the next thing?" he asked, really not looking forward to the answer.

Chapter 2

The old man gave him a wink and leaned in. ""Well next you'll have to fight the dragon in the castle, see . . ."



Or you know, something like that :) , hopefully you get my meaning.)

I've been looking forward to sharing the first chapter. Hopefully soon! The anticipation...

Regarding "Does this feel like the end of a chapter to me?", that's what drove me to recombine the chapters again today. If I split it, I think, "What did the reader get out of the first split? Was it just warming up to the second split?" Generally, the first split warms up to the second since it's the same scene. I generally split the chapter in the middle, which is where things begin to intensify. I'm glad to hear that scenes can split into multiple chapters, so I'll do that and add a few extra sentences at the end of each first split. While I like to complete a scene in one chapter, I think splits are necessary then. I'm not Rowling, so a quality manuscript of a lesser known author is more important to me.
 
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playground

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Toothpaste hit the nail on the head. Another thing to keep in mind with Rowling is that by the fourth book it is pretty much YA at that point.
 

ForeverYoursCaffiene

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Yeah, I forgot about that.

Well, here's the new stats:

CH1: 1454 words, 8 pages
CH2: 1569 words, 10 pages
CH3: 1815 words, 9 pages
CH4: 2033 words, 10 pages
CH5: 2312 words, 12 pages

The other chapters are are 2k or less.
 
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