Repeated punches - effects on fists

efreysson

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I have an idea for a scene where a vampire corners a victim, then toys with him by letting him punch her in the face again and again just to show that he can't hurt her. I'm no martial artist, but I am well aware that our hands aren't designed for impact. How many swings might he be able to make before his hands are a complete mess?
 

Bufty

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I imagine it would vary from person to person. Is he a labourer with toughened hands, or someone with more tender fingers? Does he put his thumb inside his clenched fingers or not?

A quick question. Assuming his thumb is outside his clenched fist, how dumb is he that it's not until his fists are a mess he doesn't twig his punching her in the face can't hurt her, and he should perhaps try something else?
 
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efreysson

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A quick question. How dumb is he that he doesn't twig he can't hurt her until his fists are a mess?

Not dumb so much as justifiably terrified for his life.
 

Raindrop

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I could feel my knuckles for a few days, after punching pads with lighter gloves than usual (8 oz rather than the usual 16 oz) for only a few minutes. I hit really hard for my weight, but I was hitting something much softer than a face (pads). My fingers aren't particularly bulky, so there's that.

Caveat: I'm not a boxer. I.e. I don't do contact boxing, but every now and then, my partner doesn't block properly, so I've landed quite a few punches -- but never in the face, thankfully! I also tend to pull my punches or kicks when I see my partner isn't blocking. It's only make-believe boxing. I'm tempted to try out the real thing at some point, though!

Anyway, punching soft parts without gloves would be OK for one fight, but you'd certainly feel it the day after. I'd hate hate hate to punch a cheekbone or an eyebrow. I can't imagine my knuckles would last all that long.
 

Bufty

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Not dumb so much as justifiably terrified for his life.

OK. In that case painful or messy fists would be the last thing on his mind and the only thing that would stop him wildly swinging would be exhaustion. Story-wise you could make his hands a mess any time you wanted. No need to be specific about the number of swings, which may break the tension by drawing attention to the number.

The only time I think the number of swings might be relevant is if he is a professional boxer or bruiser used to downing folk in a single swipe.

Good luck, and quick healing to your vampire's face. :Hug2:
 
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MDSchafer

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It depends on how super-hero like your vampires are. If their bones are unbreakable and the knuckle hits a maxillary bone that has the consistency of steel, and she doesn't move like when Superman takes a hit, then he could start fracturing bones on the first try.

For the record I don't understand this whole vampires have super-powers things. So, okay, you're a vampire, you need blood in order to survive, but then on top of that you get superhuman strength and nigh-invulnerability? Storywise, biologically speaking, I don't understand how that happens.
 
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efreysson

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For the record I don't understand this whole vampires have super-powers things. So, okay, you're a vampire, you need blood in order to survive, but then on top of that you get superhuman strength and nigh-invulnerability? Storywise, biologically speaking, I don't understand how that happens.

Because vampires are a demonic force of evil puppeting a corpse? Biology doesn't enter into it. I'm not a fan of the modern "vampires are just humans with physical abnormalities" thing.

And I don't see her as unbreakable so much as she just heals too fast for fists to be an effective weapon.
 

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A few miscellaneous thoughts

1. From watching crime drama I know that the angle of the punch matters as well as making the fist correctly - that you want to land the knuckles of fingers 1 and 2 as the bones behind it are thicker. You can break the bones behind fingers 3 and 4 with less effort.

2. If person is not used to making a fist, why would they do it? Why not slap, kick, pick up a large lump of wood and smash with it?

3. While the vampire's face might take the impact, transfer of momentum might knock them backwards from enough impact. Yes, they have super-muscles, but with enough force, mass also comes into play - enough force to lift their feet off the ground.

4. Super-healing - I read various vampire books and I'm not sure I'd be convinced by a big strong man punching a vampire repeatedly in the face and that vampire healing so fast it is between punches. A small weaker one just maybe. However there are records of impressive damage done by a trained martial artist in an adrenaline situation - e.g one where a black belt was on his way home, saw people trapped in a house on fire who were banging frantically on a double glazed window they couldn't open and he punched through the double glazing. That takes some doing - fire brigade would use a pointed piece of metal - a fist is really blunt by comparison.

5. Vampires are also supposed to die from having their heads cut off. What would happen if big strong bloke punches hard enough to throw vampire backwards onto ground, then jumps up and down on their neck? Maybe he could achieve a messy head removal.

Not telling you to write any of this :) Just brainstorming the concept so you can pick your own path around any pitfalls that might stop some reader's belief being suspended. :)
 
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WeaselFire

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Dozens to hundreds of times. Simple answer to a complex question, but the truth is that a face is not that damaging to hands. Bruised knuckles will show up the next day, possibly some tearing of the skin, but no real injury that ends up as a "complete mess."

Jeff
 

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After a few apparently ineffectual punches, why is he still punching her? As opposed to, say, trying to jamb a thumb in each eye? Or punching her in the throat?

(I get that he's terrified. But if he's so terrified that he can't think, wouldn't he be trying to run away? Or just collapsing into a pile of incipient hamburger?)
 

MDSchafer

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Because vampires are a demonic force of evil puppeting a corpse? Biology doesn't enter into it. I'm not a fan of the modern "vampires are just humans with physical abnormalities" thing.

And I don't see her as unbreakable so much as she just heals too fast for fists to be an effective weapon.

If the answer is "Because she's a magic demon" then it doesn't really matter? It could be one punch or it could be one-hundred. In my ER career I saw people who broke a finger from real simple things, even young healthy people in their twenties. Everything from punching a desk, to falling and catching yourself on a hand rail to closing your hand in a refrigerator door (allegedly). One women broke a finger swatting at moth. It's a finger, it doesn't take much. If they guy's a boxer, does parkore, martial arts or trains for American Ninja Warrior he's going to be able land a few more punches. Also, if he was relatively intelligent, or even was in a few fights in high school he's going to try and break her nose, if he's serious about trying to hurt her. Yeah, she magically heals faster than Wolverine, but she still feels pain, right?

The questions you should probably decide is how strong do you want this guy to be, and what is his personality like? Is he some guy who never threw a punch and didn't know you're not supposed to wrap your fingers around thumbs? Then he breaks his thumb on the first throw. Is he really hitting her? You're punching bone when you're hitting someone in the face, so it's not going to be long before you break a bone.
 
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TSJohnson

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I have an idea for a scene where a vampire corners a victim, then toys with him by letting him punch her in the face again and again just to show that he can't hurt her. I'm no martial artist, but I am well aware that our hands aren't designed for impact. How many swings might he be able to make before his hands are a complete mess?

This depends on several factors, but mainly how hard the character punches. As an example, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a bare-knuckle street fight on his first punch.

If your character has no background in punching anyone, and he is striking a hard surface that does not budge, he will like hurt his wrist before his knuckles. This is because the wrist needs to be aligned properly in order for a hand to take a punch (and one of the reasons boxers use hand wraps), and this wrist alignment doesn't come naturally to people.
 

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I agree that trying to assign normal physics to the vampire is a useless exercise, because they are dead but walking around and doing things. This cannot be justified by any normal science. So, having someone hit the vampire's face and not break it is trivial.

So, what it really comes down to is your human repeatedly punching something solid with a slight padding of flesh over it. Bareknuckle fighters who knew what they were doing could fight for hours, apparently, but someone who doesn't punch people's faces for a living will probably not do so well. A long long time ago I took a self-defense course and punched padded bags for a while. Even if the bones in your hands are fine, the skin on your knuckles can tear easily if you haven't toughened it up.

So, I'd say you have a lot of options. He could flail away for a long time under an adrenalin rush. He could through one punch and break his hand. He could punch for a minute or so and realize that all he's doing is exhausting himself, and he had better find a new escape plan.
 

Enlightened

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You should watch Friday the 13th part VIII (Manhattan). A boxer stands off with Vorhees on a rooftop. He goes to work on Vorhees. I think this is a very realistic sequence, and he threw everything he had at the villain.

Here's a clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mluutEMR3hs

Warning: Vulgarity and graphic violence, for anyone interested watching, are in the clip.
 
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efreysson

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You should watch Friday the 13th part VIII (Manhattan). A boxer stands off with Vorhees on a rooftop. He goes to work on Vorhees. I think this is a very realistic sequence, and he threw everything he had at the villain.

Here's a clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mluutEMR3hs

Warning: Vulgarity and graphic violence, for anyone interested watching, are in the clip.

Yes. This inspired the scene I have in mind.
 

Enlightened

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Follow what they did in the movie. I think it is quite realistic. The shooting-script writer did well putting that scene together.
 

Norman Mjadwesch

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I have done that training for 20+ years. Long story short, the hand is comprised of many small bones that break easily, and incorrect wrist position adds further risk of injury (hence wraps / strapping). Many martial arts styles recommend not to use fists for this very reason, though it is also true that they can be hardened / conditioned over a period of time (lots of push ups on knuckles on hard surfaces, e.g. wood or even concrete). The more practical option is to strike with the elbow if you want to splatter a nose all over a person's face. A vampire, though? Mate, that poor sod of yours is on his own, no help here...