The Alpha male = asshole

morngnstar · Jan 6, 2018

Jan74 said:
My husband would've been classified as the classic "shy" guy. For years I dated the assertive-agressive-domineering type and if I didn't have an instant animal attraction to the man then noway would I even look twice. My hubby being the shy wallflower type def wasn't on my radar till a mutual friend introduced us and even then I maintained a friendly relationship with him for at least 7months. Then literally one day I thought....why not give this guy a chance, maybe I need to seriously change "who" I'm attracted to and stop going out with these "alpha-aholes" so I called him one night and we went to a friends to have supper and a movie and the rest is history....20yrs later and what started off as a slow little flicker is def a raging fire....he still gives me butterlies and I'm more attracted to him now than I ever have anyone else I've ever been with.

One wonders, does the bad boy get the girl, but the nice guy keep her? And which gets the better half of the bargain. Bad boys, being arrogant self-promoters, like to define male success as having the most notches in their belt, but perhaps nice guys are holding onto a well-kept secret.

Synonym · Jan 7, 2018

I understand your dislike, agree with it as promoting an unhealthy role model but...it is what it is. The writer has found a theme that sells or the editor is pushing for it. The real problem may well be that you, as someone who writes, sees this more clearly than someone who's only reading for an escape from their lives.

Yes, as a writer, we need to be mindful that some people aren't equipped to separate fantasy from real life. It's a conundrum. Thankfully, one you can steer clear of if you notice certain publishers tend to gravitate towards that theme that makes you throw a book at the wall in disgust.

My least favorite FMC's are those that navel gaze, mope, and wallow in their feelings to the point that it becomes tedious. As a result, I can't bring myself to write that kind of character, because I'll want to kill the simpering witch--and that's counterproductive to most romances. :tongue

I subbed my latest manuscript to a publisher, that I've had my eye on for a while, and was asked for more. It was rejected. The editor did give me some great suggestions, which I've incorporated, but she wanted more emotion...a lot more. I struggled to add that emotion. The more I tried, the less I liked my story. Head/brick wall. It finally dawned on me that my style isn't a good fit for this editor or publisher. Maybe you will find books you don't feel like tossing with the right publisher?

Jan74 · Jan 8, 2018

morngnstar said:
One wonders, does the bad boy get the girl, but the nice guy keep her? And which gets the better half of the bargain. Bad boys, being arrogant self-promoters, like to define male success as having the most notches in their belt, but perhaps nice guys are holding onto a well-kept secret.

I think too many women view the "nice" guy as being maybe nice and timid in bed and we view the "bad boy" as being aggressive and amazing in bed...I can say with great experience(and hey if that makes me sound like a slut....well...I made sure I sowed my wild oats before I got married) my mr. nice guy is mr. bad boy when the lights go out

I have zero complaints in that department! And man if he saw I wrote that on a public forum...he would spank me! lol.

Synonym said:
I understand your dislike, agree with it as promoting an unhealthy role model but...it is what it is. The writer has found a theme that sells or the editor is pushing for it. The real problem may well be that you, as someone who writes, sees this more clearly than someone who's only reading for an escape from their lives.

Yes, as a writer, we need to be mindful that some people aren't equipped to separate fantasy from real life. It's a conundrum. Thankfully, one you can steer clear of if you notice certain publishers tend to gravitate towards that theme that makes you throw a book at the wall in disgust.

My least favorite FMC's are those that navel gaze, mope, and wallow in their feelings to the point that it becomes tedious. As a result, I can't bring myself to write that kind of character, because I'll want to kill the simpering witch--and that's counterproductive to most romances. I subbed my latest manuscript to a publisher, that I've had my eye on for a while, and was asked for more. It was rejected. The editor did give me some great suggestions, which I've incorporated, but she wanted more emotion...a lot more. I struggled to add that emotion. The more I tried, the less I liked my story. Head/brick wall. It finally dawned on me that my style isn't a good fit for this editor or publisher. Maybe you will find books you don't feel like tossing with the right publisher?

I have read alot of what I would deem in real life as unhealthy...however I love reading about it in fantasy. I can read about the slave/bdsm/kidnapped/auctioned etc all of those things that (too me) in real life would be absolutely horrific...but in fantasy I can really sink my teeth in and enjoy. I don't mind the big aggressive asshole when I know as the reader that is exactly who he is and he's not trying to be anything but....I like that....what I don't like is when I see this great alpha guy and connecting with a woman and then I'm blindsided by his manipulative behavior. It's like I've been tricked by the author into believing this guy is super nice, kind, protective, caring and loves this woman and then BAM all his red flags pop up and I"m yelling at her to ditch his ass because he is not what she thought he was. And then my strong independent girl that I've admired and like turns into a spineless jelly fish! ugh.

blackcat777 · Jan 17, 2018

While researching things for my WIP last night, I came across a very interesting (dominatrix's) blog that discussed all the ways in which evolution rewards aggression... and it made me think of this thread.

I'm not endorsing alphahole aggression or abuse - but I am saying, if you think about the things humanity has had to do to survive in the past 10,000 years, aggression had its place in ensuring survival. Hunters had more food. Warmongers had more kids. So there is still a biological/evolutionary draw to that behavior, DESPITE the fact that it often has no logical place in civilized society. Freud factors into it too, with the whole if you don't have to ban something, it's not instinctive. We all have this primal wiring for aggression and survival somewhere deep inside.

Sooooooo who wants to throw a nice hunky alpha(hole?) steak to feed our readers' inner beasts?

(This is why I think fiction is so important, because it's a nondestructive place to engage those impulses...)

Jan74 · Jan 18, 2018

I just finished reading a few books where the men are extremely aggressive and dominant, there is no mixing them up as alpha....they are beyond that but they never proclaim to be "good" alpha guys.

There's something very attractive about an aggressive man in certain circumstances. I would agree that biology has a lot to do with it too. The fact that my husband can track, hunt,kill, dress a moose or deer is obviously not necessary in today's world, however as a woman I find it very attractive. I think many woman are attracted to seeing their man do things that require strength. For instance I love watching my hubby chop firewood, I love seeing him sweat and hearing the crack of the ax splitting the wood...its an aphrodisiac.

I'm very in tune with what I find attractive....I wonder what men find attractive in women. I wonder what things we do that makes them get aroused. Hmmm I'll have to do a little research on that one.

Lil · Jan 20, 2018

I was thinking about this topic when reading a couple of Jo Goodman's westerns. Now her heroes are definitely alphas. They're the guy in charge, the one everyone turns to, the one who can be trusted to stand up for what's right and defend others, but they are also definitely not the a**hole type of alpha. They're confident enough so that they don't have to bully people, including the heroine. In fact, they are confident enough to be able to encourage the heroine and respect her strength as well.
Now that's the kind of alpha I like.

morngnstar · Jan 20, 2018

Yes. A true leader does not dominate by knocking others down. He or she builds people up.

Lynn_M · Jan 21, 2018

I totally agree with Jan74's definition of an Alpha Male and an Alpha-Hole, even if she did get it from somewhere else! However, in her original post, she was pleading for some recommendations for books with a good Alpha Male hero, and, after more than 80 responses, non have been forthcoming. The thread has decended into what an Alpha Male might be!

I was looking forward to seeing some good recommendations. Most of the heroes in the novels that I read turn out to be soy-boys. So please, some recommendations!

ElaineA · Jan 21, 2018

What's a soy-boy?

And part of the reality of this thread is the line between alpha and alpha-hole is not a bright one, universally recognized. Some people have a much lower or higher threshold than others. I'm pretty widely read in Romance (across several subgenres, at least), and I can only count a handful of "heroes" that met my personal alpha-hole threshold. (I also tend to avoid the books that have a large consensus of people agreeing the "hero" is an alpha-hole, so I'm self-selecting against the worst examples.)

Marian Perera · Jan 21, 2018

ElaineA said:
What's a soy-boy?

I was wondering that too.

And part of the reality of this thread is the line between alpha and alpha-hole is not a bright one, universally recognized.

Agreed. Is a hero an alpha if he's a strong, take-charge police officer...but fifteen years younger than the heroine? Is a hero an alpha if he's a tough, ruthless assassin who saves the heroine's life...but also drugs her, undresses her and ogles her naked body? (To me, no. To another reader, for sure!).

I could suggest that readers who want alphas check out Sable Hunter's Hell Yeah! series, for instance, but the amount of misogyny in those books turns my stomach. Which is not much of a recommendation. Then there are Anne Stuart's historical romances and romantic suspenses, all of which have alphas - but some of those alphas are so abusive towards the heroines that I stopped reading her books. I prefer alphas who are respectful of women. So it's a bit difficult to provide recommendations, because my idea of an alpha might be closer to someone else's image of a beta.

ETA : You might want to check out Maldivian Book Reviewer's site. I know for a fact that she loves alphas, the darker the better.

Jan74 · Jan 24, 2018

I just finished The Protector by Jodie Ellen Malpas, I would say the lead is an alpha, not an asshole. There is a bit of the unrealistic-must-suspend-reality in this book because she is forced to have a body guard by her father. But it was a great read and would not consider him an asshole at all.

I also read three books by Izzy Sweet the disciples series, Stealing Amy, Keeping Lily, and Buying Beth. All of these men are very aggressive controlling dominant men...however I don't think they fall into what I consider and alph-asshole...but they def don't fall into an alpha either since they are bossy and controlling and the women are under their complete control. But they don't pretend to be "good" alpha guys so I'm ok with it. Sins in the night S.H Timmins(I'm on book two now) but this is a very dark series and there is no denying these aren't good guys either, these are tormented dark men doing bad things.

Mrs.Smith · Jan 25, 2018

Jan74 said:
I just finished reading a few books where the men are extremely aggressive and dominant, there is no mixing them up as alpha....they are beyond that but they never proclaim to be "good" alpha guys.

There's something very attractive about an aggressive man in certain circumstances. I would agree that biology has a lot to do with it too. The fact that my husband can track, hunt,kill, dress a moose or deer is obviously not necessary in today's world, however as a woman I find it very attractive. I think many woman are attracted to seeing their man do things that require strength. For instance I love watching my hubby chop firewood, I love seeing him sweat and hearing the crack of the ax splitting the wood...its an aphrodisiac.

I'm very in tune with what I find attractive....I wonder what men find attractive in women. I wonder what things we do that makes them get aroused. Hmmm I'll have to do a little research on that one.

I'm with you on that. My SO has his knuckle-dragging moments on occasion, but they're rare. I love watching him do physical things that demonstrate his strength, his masculinity, and his ability to "provide" for me (like chopping wood, cleaning a fish, etc.). That IS an aphrodisiac. And he was a combat soldier for many years and I like knowing he can protect me if necessary. Also hot. And his shoulders, holy crap that man's shoulders!
But I also like those "soft" moments, when he's cuddling the cat, or holding a baby, or just last night when he got teary-eyed over what a friend is going through who recently lost her son. That kindness, compassion, gentleness is heat-producing too, just in a different way. Not saying I get turned on when he's grieving for a friend. It's that compassion is sexy too. Or maybe it's the dichotomy of this man who's a hard ass that can handle anything the world throws at him, but has a soft gooey middle. The hands that are just as comfortable holding a baby as they are holding a rifle.
For a so-called writer, I'm not putting this into words very well, but hopefully this makes some kind of sense.

Jan74 · Jan 25, 2018

Mrs.Smith said:
I'm with you on that. My SO has his knuckle-dragging moments on occasion, but they're rare. I love watching him do physical things that demonstrate his strength, his masculinity, and his ability to "provide" for me (like chopping wood, cleaning a fish, etc.). That IS an aphrodisiac. And he was a combat soldier for many years and I like knowing he can protect me if necessary. Also hot. And his shoulders, holy crap that man's shoulders!
But I also like those "soft" moments, when he's cuddling the cat, or holding a baby, or just last night when he got teary-eyed over what a friend is going through who recently lost her son. That kindness, compassion, gentleness is heat-producing too, just in a different way. Not saying I get turned on when he's grieving for a friend. It's that compassion is sexy too. Or maybe it's the dichotomy of this man who's a hard ass that can handle anything the world throws at him, but has a soft gooey middle. The hands that are just as comfortable holding a baby as they are holding a rifle.
For a so-called writer, I'm not putting this into words very well, but hopefully this makes some kind of sense.

Yes...I can relate to this on all levels, except the soldier part my husband was never in the military...but he's a hunter and has a great shot. I love the "knuckle-dragging" comment. I do enjoy seeing his jealous side once in awhile too, that always makes me feel good. And I don't mean jealous in the way of being possessive and a royal brute, just a light razzing between the two of us. For instance I love Masters of Flip, the gardner, Jeff...is hot....when he comes on tv I'll usually make a comment like "well hello Jeff!" and hubby will give me a dirty look and say "watch it, you're on thin ice" and then I'll laugh and say something like "I think Jeff should have his own show,"....just innocent things like that...he'll attempt to do that with me sometimes if we're watching a movie...but I'm the first one to say "she's hot" so it's not as effective with me

But....overall I am probably way more jealous than he is and very possessive of him. I won't deny it. As for the softer side, watching my hubby with our kids, yep...my fave picture is of him napping on the couch and one of the boys sleeping on his chest. So I do understand what you are saying, you are attracted to the man who can provide, protect and also has that nurturing side....yep....totally get it.

Anna_Hedley · Jan 26, 2018

ElaineA said:
What's a soy-boy?

I can actually answer this. See: too much time in the more WTF-ey parts of the internet. A soy-boy is a less "masculine" and therefore "undesirable" man. It comes from the bad science belief that soy contains oestrogen and therefore eating soy makes you more feminine.

ElaineA · Jan 26, 2018

Anna_Hedley said:
I can actually answer this. See: too much time in the more WTF-ey parts of the internet. A soy-boy is a less "masculine" and therefore "undesirable" man. It comes from the bad science belief that soy contains oestrogen and therefore eating soy makes you more feminine.

I think I'll just let that earlier post pass unremarked, then.

AW Admin · Jan 26, 2018

Lynn_M said:
I was looking forward to seeing some good recommendations. Most of the heroes in the novels that I read turn out to be soy-boys. So please, some recommendations!

For those not in the know, soy-boy is not well-meant.

Source 1

Source 2

It's also very much not in line with respect your fellow writer.

Moreover, given the copious nature of English, and the language's rich and flexible syntax, I'd expect a writer to do better than a generic slur.

Marian Perera · Jan 26, 2018

AW Admin said:
Source 1

Wait, according to that link, "soy boy" means someone who's a feminist, nonathletic and has never been in a fight? I want more heroes like this. Lynn_M, please tell me what books you've been reading!

Anna_Hedley · Jan 27, 2018

Marian Perera said:
Wait, according to that link, "soy boy" means someone who's a feminist, nonathletic and has never been in a fight? I want more heroes like this. Lynn_M, please tell me what books you've been reading!

About half of all my heroes fit this mould and it's also my preferred type in real life. But the real life men I've seen it levelled at all seem to be attractive, successful, nice, and have little in common otherwise. So I think what the immature men using it actually mean is "men I feel threatened by".

lizmonster · Jan 27, 2018

Anna_Hedley said:
About half of all my heroes fit this mould and it's also my preferred type in real life. But the real life men I've seen it levelled at all seem to be attractive, successful, nice, and have little in common otherwise. So I think what the immature men using it actually mean is "men I feel threatened by".

There also seems to be some seething rage at women who choose these sorts of men when they themselves can't get dates. It's like they're >this< close to figuring it out, but they can't quite get there.

For me, IRL, a man who knows I'm competent and trusts me on that - and defers to me on things where my experience/skill is superior - is sexy as hell.

morngnstar · Jan 27, 2018

If Lynn_M is still around, I don't think she should feel bad about what kind of characters she wants to read about. Maybe it was a poor choice of words. Maybe she didn't know the full history of "soy-boy".

yoghurtelf · Jan 28, 2018

I recently read my first two Stacy Gail books and I think she does her alpha males really well - they're not assholes, though occasionally I do feel like they're overstepping their bounds a bit in their attempts to be protective. But they're not doing it because they're jealous - they're doing it because they worry about their women.

In particular I liked the second book I read ("Scout") because the heroine is a very strong character and also supports her man in a way that I often find heroines don't do in romances (I love a supportive heroine for the hero!).

yoghurtelf · Jan 28, 2018

I also recently read a YA romance ("You Can't Catch Me" by Cassie Mae) where the hero was a bit overweight and I think he had asthma, so he wasn't athletic. But he was a pretty compelling character and was made desirable by the way the book was written. And another of Cassie's YA books (co-written) titled "Stage Kissed" has a hero who has quite bad anxiety and struggles to talk to anyone, but I thought he was a gorgeous hero.

Roxxsmom · Jan 29, 2018

Marian Perera said:
I was wondering that too.

Agreed. Is a hero an alpha if he's a strong, take-charge police officer...but fifteen years younger than the heroine? Is a hero an alpha if he's a tough, ruthless assassin who saves the heroine's life...but also drugs her, undresses her and ogles her naked body? (To me, no. To another reader, for sure!).

I could suggest that readers who want alphas check out Sable Hunter's Hell Yeah! series, for instance, but the amount of misogyny in those books turns my stomach. Which is not much of a recommendation. Then there are Anne Stuart's historical romances and romantic suspenses, all of which have alphas - but some of those alphas are so abusive towards the heroines that I stopped reading her books. I prefer alphas who are respectful of women. So it's a bit difficult to provide recommendations, because my idea of an alpha might be closer to someone else's image of a beta.

ETA : You might want to check out Maldivian Book Reviewer's site. I know for a fact that she loves alphas, the darker the better.

I think this post exemplifies what bothers me about flip labels for personality types in general. Not only is the term "alpha male" not really scientific in an animal behavior sense (especially the way it's being applied to humans), but it means different things to different people. And it attempts to compartmentalize traits that exist on a continuum and vary within a given (healthy) individual with situation.

To some women "alpha male" means a guy who is caring and vulnerable in appropriate ways but is competent and confident in areas that are traditionally masculine, like combat, hunting etc. To others it is a euphemism (or even a pejorative) for guys who are abusive, controlling, and domineering. To others it means a guy who is a womanizer who can't settle down romantically, at least until he meets the FMC in the romance. As a label for a type of literary character, it's not very helpful, because if one person recommends some novels with their version of "alpha males," it won't necessarily appeal to a reader who has a different idea what an alpha male should be.

IMO, it's probably more useful to describe romance characters with a bit more specificity with regards to their personalities and the arcs that ensue than simply as "alphas" or "betas." We tend to like simple labels, though.

blackcat777 · Jan 29, 2018

To some women "alpha male" means a guy who is caring and vulnerable in appropriate ways but is competent and confident in areas that are traditionally masculine, like combat, hunting etc. To others it is a euphemism (or even a pejorative) for guys who are abusive, controlling, and domineering. To others it means a guy who is a womanizer who can't settle down romantically, at least until he meets the FMC in the romance. As a label for a type of literary character, it's not very helpful, because if one person recommends some novels with their version of "alpha males," it won't necessarily appeal to a reader who has a different idea what an alpha male should be.

I see a common thread of dominance/power between all the different types you listed. There exists a huge spectrum of how that can manifest. It can be toxic, it can be heroic, uplifting, sexualized, traditional. But I think what makes them alpha is the refusal to let someone else dictate their decisions for them--whether that's the decision to cut through the heroine's clothes with a knife against her will, or rescue kittens from the top floor of a burning building, or anything in between. They can't be told what to do, or what not to do... whatever it is that they're doing.

The Otter · Jan 29, 2018

Roxxsmom said:
IMO, it's probably more useful to describe romance characters with a bit more specificity with regards to their personalities and the arcs that ensue than simply as "alphas" or "betas." We tend to like simple labels, though.

I think the best characters tend to transcend or subvert archetypes, but I've read enough romance novels to have a pretty good idea of what people mean by "alpha" or "beta." The categories wouldn't have evolved if at least some readers didn't find them useful.

All categories and labels are inherently reductive, because there will always be gray areas and room for debate as far as what counts as X or Y, but the same could be said of entire genres. I've heard people argue that categorizing stories as "science fiction" or "fantasy" is limiting because the boundary between those things is artificial, and stories can (and often do) contain elements of both, plus there's mainstream fiction that has supernatural elements but is still classified as mainstream so why have separate genres at all, etc. And there is some sense in which they're right: all genres are somewhat artificial, and a good, well-rounded book often combines elements of several genres, or defies genre entirely.

At the same time, genres evolved (in part) because they're often a useful guide for helping people find the type of stories they're looking for. I like having a fantasy/sci-fi section at the bookstore because I know it will probably contain a high concentration of the type of stories I'm seeking. Having labels for certain types of characters can be helpful in the same way.

The Alpha male = asshole

morngnstar

Synonym

Jan74

blackcat777

Jan74

Lil

morngnstar

Lynn_M

ElaineA

All about that action, boss.

Marian Perera

starting over

Jan74

Mrs.Smith

Jan74

Anna_Hedley

Fuelled by tea and crumpets.

ElaineA

All about that action, boss.

AW Admin

Marian Perera

starting over

Anna_Hedley

Fuelled by tea and crumpets.

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

morngnstar

yoghurtelf

yoghurt elf say wheeee!

yoghurtelf

yoghurt elf say wheeee!

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

blackcat777

The Otter

Friendly Neighborhood Mustelid