Apostrophes in fantasy names?

blackcat777 · Dec 23, 2017

I read a blog this afternoon about how agents throw manuscripts in the trash, out the window, into the paper shredder, light them on fire, stomp all over them, use them for toilet paper, etc., if they see fantasy names with apostrophes. The reasoning was that any name containing an apostrophe automatically impedes the reader experience. What are your thoughts?

I ADMIT I have a total of... two names in my WIP with apostrophes.

I have seen total head-scratcher names like sdlkmweoiv'sevsdkjeoiv'efsvfnif. As a reader, if I see that, I'm buttoning up my nope coat to buy a nope ticket on the nope train to ride all the way back to the nope factory to make a fresh box of nopes.

But what about a name made of recognizable syllables, and two or three syllables at most, that happens to contain an apostrophe? I'm making this up on the fly, but what about a name like Mor'wick? I used to roleplay OLDSCHOOL in the 90s on different messageboards and I was always so enchanted by some of the names with apostrophes that other players came up with because they sounded so beautiful and magical. They were, most importantly, intelligible.

Not all hideously difficult names in existence automatically contain apostrophes, either.

Do some people automatically have a bias against names with apostrophes? If they do (regardless of the relative euphonics of the apostrophe'd name in question), would it be better to scrap all names containing apostrophes if it lowers your chances of being published?

Or is this just another instance of take every bit of advice with a grain of salt? (Not... uh... my usual 200 hours of panicked overanalysis. Is everyone used to me yet?

)

Helix · Dec 23, 2017

I definitely have a bias against them, unless there's a really good linguistic reason for the apostrophe.

O'Connell. Fine.

D'Alessio. No probs.

Mor'wick. Like a swig of ipecac.

Woollybear · Dec 23, 2017

I got some grief for using apostrophe's in my work on this forum less than three days ago -

In my (confused) mind, I used them in the exact way that O'Malley uses an apostrophe. In my mind, they were as invisible as that.

Admittedly, I was confused, and there were in fact no missing letters in the names I had apostrophe'd in my story. (Clearly O'Malley has missing letters, and i get it now.)

A dear critter from another planet pointed out the apostrophes, and another critter confirmed it. (But I really thought I was using earth type names!)

Separately, in one of my first posts on this forum, I mocked fantasy names that are apostrophe'd, just to make a point, along with names that make no sense, like the names you used in your post.

When I was a teenager centuries ago, I love that Pern's (male) dragonriders' names were apostrophe'd as a mark of connecting with their dragon.

So i am not unfriendly to apostrophes but I removed mine.

I also just received a critique from elsewhere, and a real delightful gent harshed on my 'weird' names (like... 'Agatha...' ?) and told me I'm not Tolkien. ??? I can only assume it was the apostrophe's he was upset by.

Heavens, I guess we can't use apostrophes. Add it to the stack, with semicolons and adverbs, because the English language is fantastic, but you know, some parts of it really are so gauche.

-patty

Brightdreamer · Dec 23, 2017

Helix said:
I definitely have a bias against them, unless there's a really good linguistic reason for the apostrophe.

+1

The big problem with apostrophes is that they have been seriously overused, largely for aesthetic and not linguistic reasons. They create a visual stumbling block as the reader tries to figure out how to "pronounce" them - is it a pause, or invisible, or a sublingual click, or what?

Used sparingly and with purpose, they are acceptable, but if it's just "lookee here, this is a FANTASY name 'cause it has an APOSTROPHE right in the middle!", I'd suggest reconsidering.

Kjbartolotta · Dec 23, 2017

I have a certain amount of tolerance for some relatively hated fantasy naming conventions, but it's hard for me to get comfortable with apostrophes. Putting the in the middle of the name seems like an unnecessary flourish, like something the author thought would make it sound extra special, like a beautiful elf maiden or a nasty orc. And rarely do there seem to be any rules to how their apportioned. Just feel like male nipples to me.

That said, I can be convinced. Dare I ask what the names are? Feel free to PM, or if you're not comfortable that's fine.

JJ Litke · Dec 23, 2017

Brightdreamer said:
if it's just "lookee here, this is a FANTASY name 'cause it has an APOSTROPHE right in the middle!"

This is why they're a problem. Names shouldn't "just happen" to have an apostrophe in them.

It's sort of like the comic sans font. Now even in a situation where comic sans would have been acceptable years ago—like in an actual comic—you might rethink using it.

blackcat777 · Dec 23, 2017

I appreciate the input. This is so interesting because it's something that never occurred to me. As a reader, it never bothered me (unless it's a string of 10+ consonants, in which case, my gripe is with the consonants). That's part of what makes writing such a hoot.

They create a visual stumbling block as the reader tries to figure out how to "pronounce" them - is it a pause, or invisible, or a sublingual click, or what?

You have a point.

Serious question: does this make hyphens undesirable? I had intended my apostrophes to split syllables, and was hoping one of them functioned keep an O sound long. Dropping the apostrophe makes one name look undesirably different, at least in my eyes. A space would also suffice if anyone thinks hyphens are trashier than white shoes after Labor Day.

I might just use a space?

Mor'wick was a bad example because that name would read the same without the apostrophe. The horrible, not-in-my-manuscript-just-thought-up-now name So'Flop is closer to what I'm dealing with phonetically. If I drop the apostrophe in So'Flop and write it Soflop, to me that looks different. Changing the spelling for other potential ways to indicate long O doesn't work, like Souflop. Sohflop? Not quite there, either.

Ugh, I know I can choose another name, but I like this one and am still 400 names short of filling in the yet-unnamed-placeholders in my ms.

"lookee here, this is a FANTASY name 'cause it has an APOSTROPHE right in the middle!", I'd suggest reconsidering.

Busted.

Add it to the stack, with semicolons and adverbs

Now you've done it. My next tattoo will be a semicolon.

Like a swig of ipecac.

ipe'cac

And rarely do there seem to be any rules to how their apportioned.

Can we please start a council of fantasy naming conventions?

Helix · Dec 23, 2017

blackcat777 said:
Mor'wick was a bad example because that name would read the same without the apostrophe. The horrible, not-in-my-manuscript-just-thought-up-now name So'Flop is closer to what I'm dealing with phonetically. If I drop the apostrophe in So'Flop and write it Soflop, to me that looks different. Changing the spelling for other potential ways to indicate long O doesn't work, like Souflop. Sohflop? Not quite there, either.

So Flop

Woollybear · Dec 23, 2017

I think a space between the syllables could be a good solution and a way to denote culture (that's an apostrophe thing too.) ... "So Flop" (the problem here is they are each words, Po Slof has the same letters and looks less silly.) I like SohFlop well enough too as a weird fantasy name (not enough to use it personally, though, heh).

FWIW I had to change a few names for other reasons .. - I kicked and screamed at first but once it was done it was fine and the new names are as good as the old ones.

Pull that bandage off quick. It hurts less and will be fine.

Kjbartolotta · Dec 23, 2017

blackcat777 said:
So'Flop is closer to what I'm dealing with phonetically. If I drop the apostrophe in So'Flop and write it Soflop, to me that looks different. Changing the spelling for other potential ways to indicate long O doesn't work, like Souflop. Sohflop?

So Flop, Soflop, and Sohflop all sound fine to me, I guess it all depends on how you're 'translating' the fantasy language. To get into my own fatal weakness when it comes to names, I would go with Sóflop.

Helix · Dec 23, 2017

I think whacking in diacritical marks falls into the same categories as apostrophes, tbh.

cornflake · Dec 23, 2017

I think part of the issue, besides the aforementioned lack of linguistic reason, is the spread of them in general culture, much to some of our dismay.

When there are actual humans running around calling themselves R'haychelle instead of Rachel, and My'kayla instead of whatever semi-sensible spelling of that.... seeing it with fantasy keyboard slammers just doesn't seem anything but more of the same, but with keyboard slammers.

I'm not doing anything but rolling my eyes at that kind of Na'avi nonsense.

TSJohnson · Dec 23, 2017

Apostrophes are okay if they are part of a language and indicate something, like a glottal stop. So a name like Mor'wick doesn't make much sense, unless the apostrophe symbolises something - and you are able to communicate it to the reader somehow. Communicating this reason to the agent on a query letter, however, is probably going to be really difficult. In the same breath, if an agent tosses out a manuscript because it has a name with an apostrophe (but no other faults), they probably should consider a different occupation.

I have no qualms with using apostrophes if there is a reason, and that goes with everything in literature really. If there is a reason, use it, if there is no other reason than it is a gimmick, don't.

mccardey · Dec 23, 2017

Patty said:
In my mind, they were as invisible as that.

They are not invisible. I know you know that - I'm just putting it here for the newbies.

They were almost invisible once, but that was a very long time ago.

Harlequin · Dec 23, 2017

What others have said.

It should indicate a change in stress from what we're used to in English or what is suggested by the spelling. Or something like a glottal stop as TS Johnson mentioned.

You could also use diacritics. I know that sometimes has a bad rep but it's the norm in some languages. For example, the accented 'a' in spanish can be used to break up diphthongs, or stress the correct syllable in a word/name with irregular stress. Since that's already a convention, I'm happy to use it. Doesn't confuse readers but does help indicate stress.

Harlequin · Dec 23, 2017

So Flop would be the same as So'Flop, as a quick note. Possibly not the ideal example either ;-)

It can only be Sofflop/Sof lop or Soflop/so flop, for that one, and neither need a break or apostrophe particularly.

you get them for names with double consonants sometimes, but I tend to think they're not useful either. Most people will read T'mar the same as they do Tmar.

Plus, as a nitpick, the possessives look absurd to me. So'Flop's etc

Kjbartolotta · Dec 24, 2017

Helix said:
I think whacking in diacritical marks falls into the same categories as apostrophes, tbh.

Not if you're using diacriticals to consistently mark stress or long vowels in that language. *he says with the bleary eyes of a madman, clearly not able to process the argument*

I think many of us are getting at the same thing here, that we tend to eyeroll at showy naming flourishes that don't serve any purpose. And whilst there seems to be varying levels of annoyance with apostrophes and other little bugs, the overall tolerance among readers is pretty low. We all seem to remember knowing/being that kid who rolled up a D&D character named Il'luvia or Krag'mok, and shudder in mild horror about it. But I think there's the case to be made that, as long the rules and translation conventions are established, there's a lot that a reader would put up with in practice that would drive them crazy in theory. But I think I'm a bit of an outlier in what I like and am tolerant of.

Been going deep down the rabbit-hole of MAR Barker's Empire of the Petal Throne setting. For anyone who doesn't know, the professor was an accomplished linguist, specifically in Klamath and Urdu as well as some others, and spent decades working on creating languages for the world. Among the more rococo inventions of his there are names like N'lüss, Mu'ugalavya, M'mortis , and even Vrú'uneb. But then, the professor knew what he was doing, and even then, the names sound like something you'd hear after drinking too much cough syrup. I love it, but doubt this is a good bar to reach for.

Aggy B. · Dec 24, 2017

I have used apostrophes in last names in a culture where there are certain castes. So surnames are proceeded by caste level and separated by an apostrophe. (Ta'Mara, Ta'Neil, etc.) I'm also okay seeing them break up either consonant or vowel pairs that we would tend to read as a single sound. (Ce'ar or Soc'hal.) Or if it's a language that it's noted has clicks or such in the language. (Anglicized renditions of various aboriginal languages uses/used an apostrophe to indicate the "click", sometimes in combination with another letter.)

Other acceptable instances: to indicate a language shift that has elided a letter (perhaps in translation to another language), or to indicate a kind of prefix has been attached (clan name or "son of/daughter of", etc). Also, any time it doesn't pull me out of the story. And that, usually, goes back to how the world is built if the language tweaks seem consistent or just sprinkled in to try and make it seem fancy.

Kjbartolotta · Dec 24, 2017

cornflake said:
When there are actual humans running around calling themselves R'haychelle instead of Rachel, and My'kayla instead of whatever semi-sensible spelling of that.... seeing it with fantasy keyboard slammers just doesn't seem anything but more of the same, but with keyboard slammers.

Somewhere in the world, there's an adorable baby girl named Ebony Dark'ness.

Cyia · Dec 24, 2017

Kjbartolotta said:
Somewhere in the world, there's an adorable baby girl named Ebony Dark'ness.

With a twin called Dementia Raven-Way? :poke:

Metruis · Dec 24, 2017

JJ Litke said:
It's sort of like the comic sans font. Now even in a situation where comic sans would have been acceptable years ago—like in an actual comic—you might rethink using it.

Indeed, I can think of one comic that used Comic Sans and looked like it belonged there. It's actually a terrible lettering font, from a comic letterer perspective. Fun fact, this comic has since stopped using Comic Sans, a clear indication that one should not ever.

Hyphens were mentioned. Normally, I would say "use a space instead" for a name,

I use a hyphen in one name in one of my characters. This character is a supernatural bird entity, and it's intended to represent a sound present in the name a human can't make. It appears in other creatures of this species for the same purpose. I selected a hyphen for the purpose of implying an omitted letter, because the first person English-speaking narrator could find no way to transcribe the birdlike trill. I suppose this is precisely the purpose of an apostrophe, but I used to play a character named Ry'yian and I don't want to go back to those days.

The only time I've seen a glottal click represented in fantasy, it was done with an exclamation point in the name. N!ikme (not actual name). I liked that, especially as it served a valid linguistic purpose. I might go with the diatribe if the long o is essential.

I suppose I may change my character name if it's ultimately too reader hiccupy.

Harlequin · Dec 24, 2017

Ack! I can't help but nitpick that, sorry! >.<

Linguists do have a symbol for trilling (more than one). The full IPA chart should list it.

Representing a glottal stop would depend on how much of a conlang you are showing. Oftentimes conventions are rewritten for a language (best example; pinyin for Chinese).

I use th for glottal stops in one of mine, as th is fairly unusual in many languages. It does mean most readers will mispronounce the names but I'm alright with that.

Kjbartolotta · Dec 24, 2017

Harlequin said:
I use th for glottal stops in one of mine, as th is fairly unusual in many languages.

Mark Rosenfelder aka the Zompist actually has the chutzpah to use ʔ from time to time. I own all his conlanging books, but such insanity is too much for me even. (And happy holidays all you beautiful people :partyguy:

)

Cobalt Jade · Dec 24, 2017

When I was a teenager centuries ago, I love that Pern's (male) dragonriders' names were apostrophe'd as a mark of connecting with their dragon.

When I first read the books, I hated this. That, and the excessive talkiness. If the male names had been more normal I might have connected to the characters better and not found them as annoying.

Woollybear · Dec 24, 2017

OMG F'lar was so freakin' *hot.* (OK, not so much, but at the time - yeah. The dragon thing - Whoa.)

I think I looked through those books maybe ten years ago (I would have been early forties) and wondered WTH...? Not that they're bad world building, and I love the world, and I love that it's a universe, and I love that McCaffrey has been so generous with her ideas. It seems impossible that Eragon was not the Dragonriders of Pern natural extension.

As an old person, and a woman, I'll plump real quick for the importance of authors empowering each other, especially women, especially when pushing boundaries. BUT ... everybody.

Heck, imagine if someone named their character L%..##in2g@ ... Then by comparison Mor'wick is something we'd breathe a sigh of relief to.

I'm cooking in the kitchen and since I hate cooking that means I'm on glass 3 of vino. Apologies for typos. BUT I maintain McCaffrey is pure gold for her sensibilities (and her worlds are good too.)

Apostrophes in fantasy names?

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