Do you hire a freelance editor for your manuscript before you look for an agent?

Putputt

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More than half of my local novelist group have used literary consultants or other paid help. Most writers in my personal immediate circle have either studied writing in a formal way (creative writing or English, etc), and/or have had an editor. I don't know a lot of trade published writers, but 3 of the 4 don't have agents; couldn't get them, and went the small press route. The rest self publish.

I was struck by this, so I asked one of my writing groups, which is made up of ten recently agented writers (recently as in they signed this year), if they've used paid help (either consultants or editors). All of them said no, but they all said they have various writing buddies, critique partners, and/or beta readers. Nine out of the ten got their agents through the slush pile. One got her agent through a client referral.

Without going into a long discussion about privilege, I stand by what I said, which is that you do not need a professional editor to get agented. You do not need contacts to get agented.

Another thing worth noting is that out of the ten agented writers, myself included, only one of us has managed to get our book sold. :( (Not me, heh.) All of us have gone on sub at some point throughout the year, and received nothing but rejections. Not all agents are well-connected, of course, but some of the writers in the group are repped by top agents who must have great connections. But still, no sales. So...bleh, sadly, even after you're agented, connections only get you so far.
 

Harlequin

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yeah, your group is a little more high flying than mine ;-) None of us are agented, although two are published, by small presses. Both memoirs, though, so different market.

but then for me none of that matters anyway; I'm informed by a swathe of people that agents won't be an option for my first MS. Certainly that seems to be true. The only person I know of (not personally) who published a book of this type in my subgenre, did so through connections, and didn't get good sales from it; their other novels sold better. So on that note, the editor I had will have been useful for when I self publish. And yet this is something you basically never see on writers' forums; I wish there was more acknowledgement that sometimes, for some people, the agent system isn't going to work. Even if you do all the right things and polish and hone. I've read at least four MS this year where I've thought... this is truly excellent, and yet it will probably struggle to find an agent... so far, they have indeed struggled.

I guess I just find it hard to buy into this belief that talent and craft mastery is somehow paramount publishing. It helps, sure, but it's not everything. It's not even most of the thing, as it were. The writers who make the big bucks, aside from blockbuster types, seem to be indie churners who have six-figure turnovers. Extremely polished novels seem neither necessary nor helpful in that business model.
 
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Atlantic12

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To summarise:

7) If your book is brilliant agents and editors won't care how rough it is, they'll just want it.

.

I can vouch for this, and it still surprises me sometimes! The book I snagged my agent with was light years rougher than the version we're about to submit, though the plot and characters are the same. Looking back, I know how rough that book was. Rough as hell, and it still got a lot of attention. I'm a perfectionist, so this just goes all the way against my natural assumptions.

I didn't use a paid editor before I submitted. I had spent a long time getting as good as I could on my own. But I get Harlequin's argument about privilege. I am privileged to have a spouse supporting me so I can cut back on the day job and have time to write, I have the money to get writing books etc if I feel like it. I may even swing a conference now and then (only one so far). These things help immensely and contributed to my getting an agent. Maybe I would've got one without those things, but who knows? I didn't have an editor or connections. I was picked up from the slush pile. The book mattered, not who I am or who I know.

My agent has acted as a developmental editor, something I think is getting more common. At least, I hear it from more people these days. Part of her job is to get the book as polished as possible for submission even if it's big structural changes (with me, they were).

Bottom line, OP ---- keep writing, keep polishing, get some beta readers, and above all else: Take your time! There's no rush. When your work is ready, it'll find its place.
 

Putputt

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yeah, your group is a little more high flying than mine ;-) None of us are agented, although two are published, by small presses. Both memoirs, though, so different market.

but then for me none of that matters anyway; I'm informed by a swathe of people that agents won't be an option for my first MS. Certainly that seems to be true. The only person I know of (not personally) who published a book of this type in my subgenre, did so through connections, and didn't get good sales from it; their other novels sold better. So on that note, the editor I had will have been useful for when I self publish. And yet this is something you basically never see on writers' forums; I wish there was more acknowledgement that sometimes, for some people, the agent system isn't going to work. Even if you do all the right things and polish and hone.

You're preaching to the choir here. I am on my fourth agent and seventh bloody MS. Been on the submission-go-round for way too long, with too many different MSs. I know about doing everything right and still getting nowhere. :D

I've read at least four MS this year where I've thought... this is truly excellent, and yet it will probably struggle to find an agent... so far, they have indeed struggled.

I guess I just find it hard to buy into this belief that talent and craft mastery is somehow paramount publishing. It helps, sure, but it's not everything. It's not even most of the thing, as it were. The writers who make the big bucks, aside from blockbuster types, seem to be indie churners who have six-figure turnovers. Extremely polished novels seem neither necessary nor helpful in that business model.

Mmm, yeah I'd agree with you there. I don't believe that talent and craft mastery is everything there is to publishing. I think they're important ingredients, but there are also lots of other factors involved. The market being one of them. Timing being another. But this is a derail, so I'm sorry about that, OP!
 

WeaselFire

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Is it necessary?

Nothing in this world is necessary, unless you personally really need it. That said, I have never hired an editor for any work being submitted to an agent or publisher. I polish it as well as I can, if it still needs an editor then the agent or the publisher will find one.

Jeff
 

eqb

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All I can add is my own experience. I never paid an editor, nor did I acquire and MFA, and yet I signed with two different agents who then sold my books to Big Five publishers. I'm not the only one. No, there's nothing wrong with hiring an editor as a learning experience and for the novel in question, but it's not necessary.
 

mccardey

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I'm just a high school student! No one should expect me to have $1000+

No, there's nothing wrong with hiring an editor as a learning experience and for the novel in question, but it's not necessary.

+1

And if you're a high school student, it's probably not possible.

(I really don't like the idea that writing and publishing belong to the privileged few. OP, write and polish and send your work out - and best of luck to you!)
 

JJ Litke

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Is it necessary? I googled it and found out that they're really expensive, I don't have that much money. I'm just a high school student! No one should expect me to have $1000+

It's not necessary. I wouldn't say it's the best way to go even if you did have the money.

Let's say you've figured out what kind of editing you want, and also one who is going to work well with your genre and style (all of that is a whole lot of work on its own, but let's just start with that). Then you get the edits back. Which edits will you accept and keep? How will you know when to decide that this is not a good choice for your work? Or maybe an edit indicates there's a problem with some plot point, and it's great that the editor noted that, but their solution doesn't work with what you want for the story?

A big part of the issue here is knowing how to work with an editor. You don't just hand over your work, expect them to find and fix everything and you accept it all without question. But if you don't have enough experience, you might struggle with figuring out how to navigate your choices in managing those edits.

Which is why experience is so very very very important. You'll need plenty of it just to be able to make smart decisions while working with an editor. Editors are not shortcuts.

A really great way to gain that experience is to interact with other writers, critique work, talk about what's going on in your genre, what books are big and what people are loving about them. So the good news, you found that place.

So my advice is to read a lot around AW, and start participating a lot. Especially in Share Your Work. You can learn more from offering edits for other people than you can from paying an editor.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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It's not necessary. I wouldn't say it's the best way to go even if you did have the money.

Let's say you've figured out what kind of editing you want, and also one who is going to work well with your genre and style (all of that is a whole lot of work on its own, but let's just start with that). Then you get the edits back. Which edits will you accept and keep? How will you know when to decide that this is not a good choice for your work? Or maybe an edit indicates there's a problem with some plot point, and it's great that the editor noted that, but their solution doesn't work with what you want for the story?

A big part of the issue here is knowing how to work with an editor. You don't just hand over your work, expect them to find and fix everything and you accept it all without question. But if you don't have enough experience, you might struggle with figuring out how to navigate your choices in managing those edits.

Which is why experience is so very very very important. You'll need plenty of it just to be able to make smart decisions while working with an editor. Editors are not shortcuts.

A really great way to gain that experience is to interact with other writers, critique work, talk about what's going on in your genre, what books are big and what people are loving about them. So the good news, you found that place.

So my advice is to read a lot around AW, and start participating a lot. Especially in Share Your Work. You can learn more from offering edits for other people than you can from paying an editor.

These are great points. In fiction, substantive or developmental or content editing (or whatever you want to call it) is a conversation. You and the editor need to have a certain meeting of the minds for it to work. When you're working with a publishing house, your editor is usually/ideally your acquiring editor, the one who bought the book. So you know that person likes the book, and there's a certain level of trust.

Too often, when people make these blanket recommendations to "hire an editor," they don't specify whether they mean a developmental editor or a copyeditor. Those are two different people with two very different skill sets, addressing different needs the ms. might have. (I do both types of editing simultaneously at my job, but that's a tight-deadline thing, not a great idea for a novel.) If your book has fundamental structural or pacing problems, all the superficial polishing in the world won't do much good.

That may sound discouraging. But I really think that, via interactions and critiques and lots of reading in your genre, of the kind JJ is recommending, you can start thinking like your own developmental editor. When I started trying to market my writing, about 12 years ago, I wrote exactly what I wanted to with very little structure or consideration of reader expectation, and needless to say it didn't work out too well (700-page rambling, genre-less novel in the tradition of Pynchon, anyone?).

What helped me was reading Miss Snark's blog, and then AW. Paying for one critique from a published writer who had teaching experience. And reading a TON of books. No classes, no pro edits, no craft books, no conferences, just me using freely available info to find common ground between my wild ideas and the industry. (Which is an ongoing process, btw. :) ) But that's just my path. There are many paths to this goal, most of them twisty, and no magic bullets or guaranteed short cuts.

And Harlequin, you make a good point. I do believe that for some novels, some strong and polished novels, there is no feasible path to trade publication in a given market. Other paths might work better, and we're lucky to have those paths available.
 

konstantineblacke

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This thread was hugely helpful for me, as it was something I was struggling with before I decide to sub my work for publishing. I know it's an oldish thread, but being a newbie, I'm trawling through stuff slowly--not doing deliberate thread bumps.
 

K Robert Donovan

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I've been agonizing over this very question the last few weeks and am glad I stumbled across this thread. I've heard conflicting responses to the question but ALL of the comments voiced here helped me chart my course. Thank you.

- I'm currently at the Beta Reader stage with the ms out with five readers. I self-edited Draft #3 and cut my word count from 231K down to 198K before sending it out to the betas.
- I'm taking a month away from the ms to let it stew and allow the betas to work it over. Once I have their feedback in hand I'll work Draft #4.
- I plan on submitting the first chapter of Draft #4 to SYW to allow AW to take a look.
- I also plan on visiting Query Letter Hell to start working on my query letter.
- Now that I have decided to forego a pro-edit, I need to step up my research of agents, houses, and the process.
- Once I feel good about the above I will sub.
- In addition, I've written the first four pages of book 2. So I hope to move forward with writing Book 2 while I'm out querying Book 1.