UF How much swearing is too much?

PeteMC

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My published UF series (in my sig) is very, very sweary but I try to be a bit more creative with it than just saying "fuck" over and over again. In terms of "how much is too much", my editor actually told me to put more in, so I guess it's relative. My characters are mostly London gangsters, who really do talk like that, so really it depends on whether that level of profanity suits the characters or not.
 

chracatoa

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Mods, please let me know if I'm breaking the rules and I'll remove the link, but I do have a blog post about expletives/million words by genre, and I also compare them with The Martian and Ready Player One.

Also, not sure if I can post the swear words here! :)

The post is based on this BYU study.
 
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indianroads

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Swearing may at times be necessary for characterization. My last book dealt with outlaw biker clubs - so, yeah, there's quite a bit of swearing. I also use slang/swearing as an indication of the education level of a character.
 

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I think it's fine to have a character who swears a lot if you want him or her to come across as a brash, aggressive type of character. If you don't, if you want him or her just to be your average college-aged person, I'd suggest cutting it back. Whether or not people talk that way in reality, readers intuitively know that every word written by an author has purpose, so they subconsciously assume you're writing the character that way to give the message that he or she is a crass person. If you don't intend that message, don't send it.
 

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As others have said, it may come off poorly if you use the same word too frequently in a single chapter or passage. If you really want to write someone who swears a lot, perhaps try diversifying the swears? xD You could even make up some in-universe swears, if it fits your setting.
 

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I personally would find it jarring in the main character to have that amount of swearing. I don't mind it in minor characters, but it doesn't make me like the character that much. Personal opinion.
 

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Personally I think I might find 20 of the same swear word in only 3000 words way too much, that it becomes overly noticeable, but of course it all depends on how you write it. Maybe try and mix it up with other words, or try and reduce it to 15 and see how it reads without the extra 5.

Just write the story; fixing the quirks of dialogue is something to defer to your editing stage. And if the f-bomb fits, then drop that f-bomb. (Storing unused f-bombs in your head is bad for your blood pressure.)

My published UF series (in my sig) is very, very sweary but I try to be a bit more creative with it than just saying "fuck" over and over again. In terms of "how much is too much", my editor actually told me to put more in, so I guess it's relative. My characters are mostly London gangsters, who really do talk like that, so really it depends on whether that level of profanity suits the characters or not.

So I've started, as Brandon Sanderson would call it, discovery writing an Urban Fantasy where my MC is a recent college grad, and in about 3000 words has dropped the 'F' bomb at least 20 times... So anybody have any thoughts on guidelines for how often to pepper dialogue with profanity while still keeping the book readable?

Cool. I'm very much in the 'just write it' camp. The first volume of my space (light) opera that I subbed to the Angry Robot Open Door has 109 F-bombs; 87 shts; 40 damns; 21 aspersions on parenthood; 8 female dogs; 3 donkey-equivalents; 1 Italian word for donkey-equivalent; 1 'p---k me do I not bleed'; 1 male hen; 1 Loki's favourite swear (short version); 1 reference to self-abuse; 1 Italian 'c' word and a partridge in a pear tree (that's not a euphemism). This is 274 swears in 89,000 words, or 1 per 325 words, compared to your 1 in 150. Hmm, but the important think is that they serve the story or character(s), and have a context, i.e. are not gratuitous or sensational. I don't think there's a set answer to this.

Thinking of it another way, how do you feel about it?
 
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Justobuddies

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I'm a big fan of leaving notes to myself for when I'm editing later, one of my notes is literally in the middle of a dialogue and asks, "[is Billy swearing overly-much?]" Followed by another dialogue note in chapter 2 or 3 [maybe reduce the use of filler in dialogue by this point]. I'm continuing to type it the way I hear it in my mind, but since I'm working on a couple of different projects at the moment I have to read over some of my rough draft to get back into the right flow. That first comment got me thinking about the limited number of Urban Fantasy novels I've actually read, and how most of the dialogue doesn't feel modern, especially when a character is a twenty-something American male. So thought I'd ask the pro's what they think.

Thinking of it another way, how do you feel about it?

As I draft this MS I really want to capture the natural way the characters speak, and having hung out with some twenty-something college guys recently 'F-bombs' = filler sounds. The mentor character's dialogue, while not full of swearing as much is more like watching an old Cheech and Chong film, with all the fillers of 'like', 'man', 'hey man', and 'far out'. I think mentor man has one of these in, like, every sentence or two, man. Probably more often when I think about it. It seems all of this filler disappears as I write it. Then again, as I write it I'm right there with the college slacker learning sorcery from the old hippie and what I write down disappears, so that may not be the best rule of thumb for gauging how jarring the dialogue is. I may just leave it untouched until the Beta Reader phase. I do know that as the MC becomes a bit less angry with the way his life is going his language cleans up, a sign of maturity. So It's only a first half of the book problem.
 

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I may just leave it untouched until the Beta Reader phase. I do know that as the MC becomes a bit less angry with the way his life is going his language cleans up, a sign of maturity. So It's only a first half of the book problem.

I think that's the best thing to do, personally. In my experience, your readers very quickly will give you a clear picture of how the approach is working, and whether they are 'happy' with the character. I guess if you write him as a realistic (angry?) college kid, angry college kids will tend to identify with him. Fine, if that's what you're going for, but will the character chime for the sensitive, intellectual college kids, retired school teachers and Nasa scientists (for example), who you would want to also pick up your book (presumably)? It's too easy to overthink at the drafting stage. I think you are right to get it written and Beta the heck out of it :)
 

SimaLongfei

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So I've started, as Brandon Sanderson would call it, discovery writing an Urban Fantasy where my MC is a recent college grad, and in about 3000 words has dropped the 'F' bomb at least 20 times. I don't know that it's too unrealistic, considering character and setting, but I'm worried that it may not exactly be readable dialogue. Which got me thinking about the question: How much swearing is too much?

Realistically, I have friends in their mid-twenties (the age of my character) that use profanity the way other people use filler words. It's to the point they stutter if I challenge them to not swear when they speak. So anybody have any thoughts on guidelines for how often to pepper dialogue with profanity while still keeping the book readable?
I've actually had a long and hard think about swearing and books myself. I think the best answer is not the most common one you'd hear (which is, think about what the character would say, and college students tend to be swear-heavy, even if some don't swear at all).

Instead of the character, think about the audience you're trying to appeal to. Even if it makes sense for the real world, having swear-heavy dialog in a lighthearted adventure romp of ... college students that found the Literature building harbors a secret fae obsessed with modern "bards," would end up turning away a lot of the audience interested in this book.

However, if your urban fantasy is a gritty, realistic murder mystery about the campus mascot being a werewolf (okay, maybe not that gritty), then swear away. The swears will add a visceralness to the dialog that the audience will tolerate or expect and add to the experience.
 
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Kalsik

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Something to bear in mind with higher concept fiction like sci-fi and fantasy is the nature of the setting. If its too far in the past or future, or in an alternate world, our modern lingo might stand out like a sore thumb and break immersion.
1. Languages change over time. It was only 350 years ago that 'I bite my thumb at thee' was Shakespearean for telling someone to f*** off, and doing so was giving them the bird. Fast forward another 350, and who knows what would constitute the equivalent of moral indignation from those hypersensitive among readers.
2. Writing fictional curse words to try and counter point 1 is a tightrope. Too ridiculous and it breaks immersion, but done right it can add a layer to the world.
3. As for excessive cursing in general, that's down to both the character and the nature of their role. Look at real life, as some professions are higher stress and inadvertently cause more profanity to be used. I doubt the equivalent of a monk in your world would be cursing like a drunken sailor for sure.
 

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I'm okay with it once or twice every other chapter, but more than that and I start to get a little uncomfortable. Just my personal preference, feeling.

Regarding the effectiveness of it: I think it gets to a point where it's being beat in to no substantial gain. I believe a reader can be trusted to get a sense of who the character is with a few well placed words. After that, once the voice is established, the reader will "hear" the character talking without needing much hand holding. It's like when you're establishing an accent. Hit the accent hard early and lay off as the narrative continues. The reader will continue to "hear" the accent because that's what the reader is expecting to hear, and that's how the reader identifies the character. Whereas beating in the accent page after page would have just become distracting.

In other words, I think a little goes a long long long way.
 

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Hello almost-zombie thread! How's your MS going, OP? Maybe we can swap when you're done ;-)

I'm writing (nearly done with) a MS where the MC swears about every other paragraph. It's not meant to carry weight, or add emphasis; it fills the same role that swearing did for me, when younger. Dialectal filler (same category as 'you know', 'like', 'whatever', etc.)

In writing I think it's about establishing a setting and mood and can say something about the character, too. "God's War" by Kameron Hurley has prolific swearing. The shock value of a female dominated society, with a sweary violent female character is making a statement about broader SFF and our cultural expectations. (Nota bene: I don't much like the book, but not for that reason).

There's also a slight cultural issue, if I might comment on that... American swearing tends to be quite limited. I keep wanting to use all these colourful terms and expressions that people have in the UK and discovering there aren't any equivalents on your side of the pond. I guess if 'fck' is your main go then it would certainly get repetitive. But it's not that big a deal, I can create my own for said character.

Anyways. It's all very subjective. At one point I didn't like sweary books much.
 

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I am one of those people for which things like the F-Bomb are a pretty big turnoff. From an artistic standpoint, I wouldn't suggest compromising your vision of the character for reader tastes. From a market standpoint, I personally am unlikely to purchase a book that has any F-bombs on the first page. To me this is an indicator of certain attitudes that I find unappealing in a protagonist. Again, not saying you should reduce them, just providing some data.

Sanderson invents his own swears. "Sparks" and "Storm it" come to mind. These don't bother me. I guess they feel immersive. It's that F-Bomb and a few other words like it though that just jolt me in unpleasant ways.
 

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Something like: I'm no puritan, but even by my lax standards, Bob swears a lot. You get used to it after a while, but he's not the kind of person you bring home for the holidays if you have any relatives who are easily shocked.

This entire post was very insightful, especially that last line. Brilliant. That could definitely make it work.

For me, I feel like swearing can easily become a crutch when trying to characterise or find your voice. Why do you want him to swear so much? I'm sure you can characterise him to be like that some other way, without quite so much swearing.

I filter it as much as possible in my writing, but that's my preference. It also makes that odd f-bomb all the more punchy.
 

Harlequin

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I am one of those people for which things like the F-Bomb are a pretty big turnoff. From an artistic standpoint, I wouldn't suggest compromising your vision of the character for reader tastes. From a market standpoint, I personally am unlikely to purchase a book that has any F-bombs on the first page. To me this is an indicator of certain attitudes that I find unappealing in a protagonist. Again, not saying you should reduce them, just providing some data.

Sanderson invents his own swears. "Sparks" and "Storm it" come to mind. These don't bother me. I guess they feel immersive. It's that F-Bomb and a few other words like it though that just jolt me in unpleasant ways.

I just wanted to say, I really appreciate this viewpoint (distinguishing between your personal preference and someone else's goals). Not a lot of people do that, surprisingly! We tend to equate our standards as being universal.

Although ironically, I don't like Brandon Sanderson's swear words haha. I guess because swearing, linguistically speaking, comes from things which are sacred or profane. Sparks doesn't make sense and he sort of uses it improperly (I can't help being a pedant about these things.) But it doens't bother me a huge amount. And it makes his books friendly for a younger audience and/or a wider audience. Those are good things. I enjoyed the concepts in his superhero series.

This entire post was very insightful, especially that last line. Brilliant. That could definitely make it work.

For me, I feel like swearing can easily become a crutch when trying to characterise or find your voice. Why do you want him to swear so much? I'm sure you can characterise him to be like that some other way, without quite so much swearing.

I filter it as much as possible in my writing, but that's my preference. It also makes that odd f-bomb all the more punchy.

I know you're not addressing me particularly, but this is effectively an argument of infinite regress ;-) You could ALWAYS characterise your character in a thousand different ways, without any of the traits they have. A cruel character could be cruel without pulling hair. A rude character could be rude without swearing. A nice character could be nice without giving gifts. And so on. There are endless traits to choose from.

Can't speak for OP. But I chose swearing for mine because the book is about two alternate selves of a person. One self-version is very profane and rude, fearless and indifferent, a consummate liar. The other is terrified of offending, and so is endlessly polite, etc. The rudeness and the jarringness is absolutely the point for the first, and tbh this thread is sort of proving my case. Swearing has a special significance, it is especially repulsive to a lot of people, and you cannot get the same reaction in other ways.

I don't want the *idea* of an unpalatable character. I want an actual unpalatable character.
 

Harlequin

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Sorry, I guess I shouldn't get so passionate over it. But I guess for me there are also all these issues tied up with gender expectations. Women in particular suffer from a double standard; I've noticed that the people who complain the most and loudest about swearing in my current project are primarily men. It's masculnie, and not how women should behave.

Actual women are less bothered, as an overall trend, by a sweary female character. I think disabusing some double standards is well worth doing on occasion.
 

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Read some Irvine Welsh.

In particular The Rosewell Incident - a satirical sci fi story about a bunch of super-intelligent aliens who've been reverse inculcated by a Scottish football hooligan.

Hilarious but well sweary - perfect example of writing character for audience.
 
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Justobuddies

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Hello almost-zombie thread! How's your MS going, OP? Maybe we can swap when you're done ;-)

I'm writing (nearly done with) a MS where the MC swears about every other paragraph. It's not meant to carry weight, or add emphasis; it fills the same role that swearing did for me, when younger. Dialectal filler (same category as 'you know', 'like', 'whatever', etc.)

There's also a slight cultural issue, if I might comment on that... American swearing tends to be quite limited. I keep wanting to use all these colourful terms and expressions that people have in the UK and discovering there aren't any equivalents on your side of the pond. I guess if 'fck' is your main go then it would certainly get repetitive. But it's not that big a deal, I can create my own for said character.

Anyways. It's all very subjective. At one point I didn't like sweary books much.

It's firmly on the back warmer right now as my eyes dart back and forth between my Sisyphus commitment and the calendar. I do intend on getting back into that draft in the spring.

I agree that our swears over here in the states are pretty limited to George Carlin's 7 dirty words routine, which makes their use repetitive and lends to lessening their meaning. As I revise I may change a few up or switch some of them to stutters since it's mainly Billy's way to communicate frustration and anger. He's based loosely off a real person that behaves like a 20 something child that behaves the same way.


I am one of those people for which things like the F-Bomb are a pretty big turnoff. From an artistic standpoint, I wouldn't suggest compromising your vision of the character for reader tastes. From a market standpoint, I personally am unlikely to purchase a book that has any F-bombs on the first page. To me this is an indicator of certain attitudes that I find unappealing in a protagonist. Again, not saying you should reduce them, just providing some data.

Sanderson invents his own swears. "Sparks" and "Storm it" come to mind. These don't bother me. I guess they feel immersive. It's that F-Bomb and a few other words like it though that just jolt me in unpleasant ways.

I usually come up with my own swears in my epic fantasy stories, this one was my first attempt at doing a modern (urban) fantasy, set in a nondescript mid-western American college town. Magical creatures use their own unique swears, like my computer pixie that curses with electronic parts terms such as an exclaimation of" Mother Board!" which fits his character.
 

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People in general are much more sensitive about vulgar language. My first novel was a cop drama, and the number one complaint was the f-bomb usage. I thought people would be upset with the extreme violence, but they were ok with that as long as I scaled back the profanity.

I blame tv. Lots of violence appears on American television but the language has long been censored and only recently took a turn for the vulgar.
 

Roxxsmom

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I do want to add a caution to anyone who intends to use swearing in a work of fiction to denote a lower level of education, lack of intelligence, or a lower socioeconomic class. There is little evidence to support the oft repeated notion that swearing results from a poor vocabulary or lack of education. Swearing cuts across socioeconomic classes and cultures (though the way people from different classes and cultures swear will differ), and it may actually correlate positively with intelligence. In the UK, the upper and lower classes swear more than the lower middle classes. In the US this may be true too. Trust me, academics and other professionals swear (as do rich people). They may not do it in front of their classes/patients/clients or during board meetings, but most of the ones I've known do when they're not around anyone they think will be offended by it (or if they are around people whom they don't care about offending, as the case may be).

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-swearing-a-sign-of-a-limited-vocabulary/

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/why-swearing-makes-you-stronger

https://www.sciencealert.com/swearing-is-a-sign-of-more-intelligence-not-less-say-scientists

This doesn't mean swearing works for every story or writing style, and swearing is still taboo in some genres and marketing demographics. It also doesn't mean there aren't degrees of sweariness, or that there aren't swear words that are taboo to some groups and not others (or that swearing in some situations isn't rude). As with anything else, a writer should know what purpose it serves for their story.
 

Harlequin

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Yes, this^^^

I posted excerpts from current WIP awhile back and a fair few people said they found the "educational level" of the character jarringly at odds with her profanity.

I'm reasonably well educated, and swear profusely. My experience of university was that everyone else there, did too. British politicians (known for being wealthy and upper class as a rule) are insanely profane. Legendarily so. (I refer you to "The Thick of It": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIPxLzfw6wU )


Women swear. Smart women swear. No point pretending they don't. If anything, I think that's well worth representing.
 
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