If it's so good, then why all the rejections?

Quibbles · Dec 11, 2017

A week ago I found a very reputable editor (whom I very much respect) via an agent's blog. I contacted this person to ask about developmental editing for my novel. They said to send over the first 25 pages and they'd make edits so I could get a feel for how they work and if I would like to continue.

Well, a few hours after a phone call with this editor, they email me back saying that my first 25 pages were so good that the editor actually has no suggestions for me! I should be very proud of these pages.

So I email them back, and politely say that if they are so good, then why am I getting so many rejections?

The editor said that they would think about my opening chapter, and they also requested to see my query letter. I sent the query letter immediately.

Still haven't heard back from them.

So during this past week I've been thinking maybe it's the query letter that's the problem. But around an hour ago I just got a rejection from an agent who said that she loved my concept, the query got her really excited, but she just couldn't get into the pages.

Well then. Where does that leave me? Honestly, I have no clue. Any thoughts?

KTC · Dec 11, 2017

I'd be a little leery of an editor not suggesting a SINGLE edit in 25 pages of manuscript copy. That sounds quite unbelievable.

But I do know about rejections...and how you sometimes really do need to find the right agent who will be passionate about the work. Rejections don't always mean the manuscript is terrible or fraught with problems. Sometimes, you just haven't found the right fit. Did you try posting your query letter here in query hell for feedback?

zmethos · Dec 11, 2017

It's all subjective. How many rejections have you received so far based on the query and/or pages? If you're still concerned, I would say find another editor and see if they have more feedback for you than the first one did.

Quibbles · Dec 11, 2017

KTC said:
I'd be a little leery of an editor not suggesting a SINGLE edit in 25 pages of manuscript copy. That sounds quite unbelievable.

But I do know about rejections...and how you sometimes really do need to find the right agent who will be passionate about the work. Rejections don't always mean the manuscript is terrible or fraught with problems. Sometimes, you just haven't found the right fit. Did you try posting your query letter here in query hell for feedback?

Yep, I'm finding it odd that they didn't have any edits. But this person is definitely legit. I'm new here so I don't have 50 posts yet, but when the time comes I will submit my query letter for feedback. ^_^

zmethos said:
It's all subjective. How many rejections have you received so far based on the query and/or pages? If you're still concerned, I would say find another editor and see if they have more feedback for you than the first one did.

I've heard back from 45 agents. Seven of them requested pages, and out of those seven, four passed. Still waiting to hear back from the other three.

Chris P · Dec 11, 2017

Quibbles said:
Yep, I'm finding it odd that they didn't have any edits. But this person is definitely legit. I'm new here so I don't have 50 posts yet, but when the time comes I will submit my query letter for feedback. ^_^

I've heard back from 45 agents. Seven of them requested pages, and out of those seven, four passed. Still waiting to hear back from the other three.

These are pretty decent numbers, actually, at least compared to the best I've done. I would be thrilled if one in seven replies was a request for pages.

Regarding rejections, one way I put myself into the role of an agent is to go to a website called FreeMusicArchvie.org. (It's a legit site where the artists or radio stations post music under creative commons licenses.) On their home page, they have recently added highlights and a most popular list. If I start at the top and listen to each song, I can usually tell in a few seconds if I want to download or not. Sometimes the song's well done but not one of my preferred genres. Sometimes the music is good but the vocals bad, sometimes it's a good singer but lousy music, and sometimes it's just noise. But the point remains: it only takes a few seconds to know and I don't have to listen to the full four minutes to say yea or nay. The decision has to do with much more than if it's well done.

KTC · Dec 11, 2017

Quibbles said:
I'm new here so I don't have 50 posts yet, but when the time comes I will submit my query letter for feedback. ^_^

You'll find that it's extremely helpful to get query feedback here.

Quibbles · Dec 11, 2017

Chris P said:
These are pretty decent numbers, actually, at least compared to the best I've done. I would be thrilled if one in seven replies was a request for pages.

Regarding rejections, one way I put myself into the role of an agent is to go to a website called FreeMusicArchvie.org. (It's a legit site where the artists or radio stations post music under creative commons licenses.) On their home page, they have recently added highlights and a most popular list. If I start at the top and listen to each song, I can usually tell in a few seconds if I want to download or not. Sometimes the song's well done but not one of my preferred genres. Sometimes the music is good but the vocals bad, sometimes it's a good singer but lousy music, and sometimes it's just noise. But the point remains: it only takes a few seconds to know and I don't have to listen to the full four minutes to say yea or nay. The decision has to do with much more than if it's well done.

Yes, I should be proud of my numbers, but I want more! Ha. But really, lately the rejections have been coming in nonstop - or at least that's what it feels like. Just trying to look to the future in case the agents still with my materials reject everything!

As for your point about the music, yes, well said! I think I have trouble remembering that sometimes.

KTC said:
You'll find that it's extremely helpful to get query feedback here.

I'm sure! Looking forward to getting feedback when the time comes.

Dennis E. Taylor · Dec 11, 2017

What kind of editor do they purport to be? Developmental, or copy? I would find it unbelievable that you didn't have one single copy edit issue in 25 pages. If that's true, you should be a copy editor yourself.

Developmentally, perhaps your first 25 pages flows nicely, but doesn't go anywhere. Or leads to a red herring. or some such. SYW is definitely an option. Another is a beta reader. Lay it on the line, explain the situation to them, and ask for honest feedback, even if brutal.

Quibbles · Dec 11, 2017

Dennis E. Taylor said:
What kind of editor do they purport to be? Developmental, or copy? I would find it unbelievable that you didn't have one single copy edit issue in 25 pages. If that's true, you should be a copy editor yourself.

Developmentally, perhaps your first 25 pages flows nicely, but doesn't go anywhere. Or leads to a red herring. or some such. SYW is definitely an option. Another is a beta reader. Lay it on the line, explain the situation to them, and ask for honest feedback, even if brutal.

Ha. Developmental editor. I've had my first two chapters workshopped in a class for two revisions over the course of a semester, and I've had several beta readers since then. Not many comments on the beginning from them, but then again, unfortunately not many of my betas offered deep insight. Just their reactions to the story as it was happening.

Atlantic12 · Dec 11, 2017

Was the sample the editor did the exact number of pages the agents read? If the agents had a longer sample, they might be seeing the story go in a direction that doesn't do it for them despite the polished opening. This happens.

I don't think it's that far-fetched for an editor to find a very polished 25 pages. Those are probably the most polished in the whole book, right? The question might be if those pages are heading in a marketable direction from the point of view of people who would have to sell the book. Maybe that's the kind of conversation you could have with an editor. Of course it's your story and it shouldn't be changed beyond recognition just to get a sale, but you might see if you need to adjust something to hit that sweet spot where what you love to write and what sells overlaps.

Davy The First · Dec 12, 2017

I'm not seeing any reason at all for panic, yet.

Quibbles · Dec 12, 2017

Atlantic12 said:
Was the sample the editor did the exact number of pages the agents read? If the agents had a longer sample, they might be seeing the story go in a direction that doesn't do it for them despite the polished opening. This happens.

I don't think it's that far-fetched for an editor to find a very polished 25 pages. Those are probably the most polished in the whole book, right? The question might be if those pages are heading in a marketable direction from the point of view of people who would have to sell the book. Maybe that's the kind of conversation you could have with an editor. Of course it's your story and it shouldn't be changed beyond recognition just to get a sale, but you might see if you need to adjust something to hit that sweet spot where what you love to write and what sells overlaps.

Nope, most agents I've sent it out to have been cold queries where they only see the first five or ten pages.

That definitely could be something to bring up with an editor. I guess I just need to figure out whether I should talk to a different one or not.

Anna Iguana · Dec 12, 2017

Of possible relevance... Janet Reid, a literary agent, blogged recently about the situation when "there's something wrong with your manuscript and no one is willing to engage in the conversation that will tell you."

Fuchsia Groan · Dec 12, 2017

Atlantic12 said:
I don't think it's that far-fetched for an editor to find a very polished 25 pages. Those are probably the most polished in the whole book, right? The question might be if those pages are heading in a marketable direction from the point of view of people who would have to sell the book. Maybe that's the kind of conversation you could have with an editor. Of course it's your story and it shouldn't be changed beyond recognition just to get a sale, but you might see if you need to adjust something to hit that sweet spot where what you love to write and what sells overlaps.

This is a good point. You want to make sure the editor is coming from the same place as agents, i.e., has knowledge of the current market for your category/genre.

I'm pretty sure the opening few pages of my novel changed very little from agent queries to publication, so that can happen. Going deeper into the original first 25 pages, though, things did change quite a bit (as in, some of those pages are now around p. 100

). Could be that a good developmental editor won't see what needs to be reshuffled until they've read the whole ms.

Back when I was querying and getting no luck, I showed my mss. to a lot of other writers who said things like "Well, your prose is clean and flowing, so you should be fine." I was not fine. Eventually I paid for an assessment from someone I respected, and she laid it all out: While the prose was indeed perfectly fine, sentence to sentence, the story wasn't gripping for various reasons. It was hard to hear, but it was helpful feedback, finally.

Problems like that may or may not be apparent in the first 25 pages, but I would make sure the editor understands the expectations for your genre. For instance, YA, even literary YA, moves faster than adult literary fiction; SFF can have more world-building; thrillers need to be thrilling. If pacing is important in your genre, and the editor is more focused on the prose quality than whether a conflict is mounting, that could be a mismatch. Not to say that's necessarily what's happening here, but I would have a conversation with the editor, and look at their past work, before committing.

Quibbles · Dec 12, 2017

Anna Iguana said:
Of possible relevance... Janet Reid, a literary agent, blogged recently about the situation when "there's something wrong with your manuscript and no one is willing to engage in the conversation that will tell you."

Thanks. Love Janet Reid's blog but haven't checked it lately.

Fuchsia Groan said:
This is a good point. You want to make sure the editor is coming from the same place as agents, i.e., has knowledge of the current market for your category/genre.

I'm pretty sure the opening few pages of my novel changed very little from agent queries to publication, so that can happen. Going deeper into the original first 25 pages, though, things did change quite a bit (as in, some of those pages are now around p. 100 ). Could be that a good developmental editor won't see what needs to be reshuffled until they've read the whole ms.

Back when I was querying and getting no luck, I showed my mss. to a lot of other writers who said things like "Well, your prose is clean and flowing, so you should be fine." I was not fine. Eventually I paid for an assessment from someone I respected, and she laid it all out: While the prose was indeed perfectly fine, sentence to sentence, the story wasn't gripping for various reasons. It was hard to hear, but it was helpful feedback, finally.

Problems like that may or may not be apparent in the first 25 pages, but I would make sure the editor understands the expectations for your genre. For instance, YA, even literary YA, moves faster than adult literary fiction; SFF can have more world-building; thrillers need to be thrilling. If pacing is important in your genre, and the editor is more focused on the prose quality than whether a conflict is mounting, that could be a mismatch. Not to say that's necessarily what's happening here, but I would have a conversation with the editor, and look at their past work, before committing.

Speaking of genre, I just got a quote back from an agent-turned-editor who said my beginning needed a lot of work and that there's a disconnect between the voice and the genre. $275 for her to edit the query letter and the first 10 pages.

Really torn as to what to do here as now I've gotten two completely different responses to the opening.

Fuchsia Groan · Dec 12, 2017

Quibbles said:
Speaking of genre, I just got a quote back from an agent-turned-editor who said my beginning needed a lot of work and that there's a disconnect between the voice and the genre. $275 for her to edit the query letter and the first 10 pages.

Really torn as to what to do here as now I've gotten two completely different responses to the opening.

I'm not an expert, so take this with a grain of salt, but that seems like a lot to pay for an edit of a few pages to me. (I paid $400 once for an evaluation of an entire novel.) It's useful information, though. I would suggest finding a few CPs who really know your genre, and/or posting the first pages for critique here, if you're comfortable with that.

Quibbles · Dec 12, 2017

Fuchsia Groan said:
I'm not an expert, so take this with a grain of salt, but that seems like a lot to pay for an edit of a few pages to me. (I paid $400 once for an evaluation of an entire novel.) It's useful information, though. I would suggest finding a few CPs who really know your genre, and/or posting the first pages for critique here, if you're comfortable with that.

I agree, it is a lot, and I won't be pursuing that editor. I've found some other editors online who charge much less. I'll most likely post some pages for critique when I have 50 posts.

JJ Litke · Dec 12, 2017

Quibbles said:
I agree, it is a lot, and I won't be pursuing that editor. I've found some other editors online who charge much less. I'll most likely post some pages for critique when I have 50 posts.

You'll learn tons by going to SYW now and start critiquing. You can get to 50 while you develop your sense of what works and what doesn't. Plus it's good to contribute if you intend to post.

Metruis · Dec 17, 2017

I love critiquing other people when I'm prepping for an edit myself. I find it really helps to get my head in the right place.

Then you can just get some of us who will read your story in exchange for you reading ours, or brownies, or whatever to take a look... at the query and maybe at the start as well. It does sound like you're getting a really mixed range of responses though overall decent numbers!

amillimiles · Dec 17, 2017

JJ Litke said:
You'll learn tons by going to SYW now and start critiquing. You can get to 50 while you develop your sense of what works and what doesn't. Plus it's good to contribute if you intend to post.

Completely agree with this. SYW is the best forum. It helped me get off my feet several years back, when I was just a fledgling writer on my first manuscript. Fast forward three years, I have an agent, and my submissions process ... is about to end!!!

I learned my craft through SYW, and through the amazing beta readers I found here. I also got so much great query letter feedback through Query Letter Hell. So -- definitely recommend posting.

Very much like the others, I find it really odd that a reputable editor doesn't have a single suggestion for the first 25 pages. I'm not experienced in this, having never sent my pages to an editor pre-query, but I wonder if you could find a second opinion?

Otherwise, SYW is the place to go. The folks here will have plenty of opinions on your work!

Quibbles · Dec 17, 2017

amillimiles said:
Completely agree with this. SYW is the best forum. It helped me get off my feet several years back, when I was just a fledgling writer on my first manuscript. Fast forward three years, I have an agent, and my submissions process ... is about to end!!!

I learned my craft through SYW, and through the amazing beta readers I found here. I also got so much great query letter feedback through Query Letter Hell. So -- definitely recommend posting.

Very much like the others, I find it really odd that a reputable editor doesn't have a single suggestion for the first 25 pages. I'm not experienced in this, having never sent my pages to an editor pre-query, but I wonder if you could find a second opinion?

Otherwise, SYW is the place to go. The folks here will have plenty of opinions on your work!

In this past week the editor did get back to me and said they would send another email with feedback on some things. That was on Tuesday and I am still waiting for that email. Oh well. I understand being busy, so I'm just trying to be patient.

I was in contact with some other editors so I could get a second opinion and I was struggling with whether the price they were quoting would be worth it. Like someone else here said, $275 seemed like a lot to pay for a query critique + review of the first few pages, and the other editors I was in contact with also seemed to be overpriced in that regard.

Fortunately for me while I was debating what to do, I got another full request from a cold query + the first five pages. So I've decided to hold off on looking for a second opinion while I wait for feedback from the first editor.

I've been a bit busy since it's the end of the semester for me but I did manage to critique one query in SYW. I want to do that more as soon I have all my papers handed in!

The Otter · Dec 17, 2017

Quibbles said:
So I email them back, and politely say that if they are so good, then why am I getting so many rejections?

To second what others have said, a rejection doesn't always mean that it's poorly written, it could just mean that it's not what the agent is looking for at the moment. Or that they just accepted another book which had a similar premise. Or that they were overwhelmed/tired when they read it. Or any number of other things.

Agents, like everyone else, have tastes and preferences. Many books that eventually went on to become bestsellers probably got rejected multiple times before they caught someone's eye.

If it's so good, then why all the rejections?

Quibbles

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

zmethos

from words to worlds

Quibbles

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

Quibbles

Dennis E. Taylor

Get it off! It burns!

Quibbles

Atlantic12

Davy The First

Quibbles

Anna Iguana

reading all the things

Fuchsia Groan

Becoming a laptop-human hybrid

Quibbles

Fuchsia Groan

Becoming a laptop-human hybrid

Quibbles

JJ Litke

People are not wearing enough hats

Metruis

Not All Those Who Wander Are Lost

amillimiles

Quibbles

The Otter

Friendly Neighborhood Mustelid