History Mistakes You Forgive Because You Love the Work...

RoseDG

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History mistakes suck, and lazy writing/research is annoying. But sometimes, we overlook it a bit because we enjoy the book or movie enough to let go a bit.

For me, Anastasia the Musical gets a little more forgiveness than some others, because I love it so much -- even if it is completely wrong. I try to view it as a "what if" sort of a thing, despite so many aspects making no sense. At least it's a little more accurate than the animated film? :)
 

Siri Kirpal

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I don't count musicals. Haven't seen Anatasia, but I know the Sound of Music is off base on four major points: The von Trapps took a train rather than climbing a mountain, there is no mountain pass out of Salzburg, the family was singing long before Maria married Papa (just not professionally), Papa never was a martinet. But they DID take the high road, so that part's metaphorically true, and yes, Maria did energize their singing.

I don't mind when people move buildings somewhat or if the dates are off slightly, providing those dates aren't plot points in either the book or real history. I'm not so aware of fashion that mistakes there bother me, unless it's wildly off, like crinolines during the Regency. Or lots of people having tattoos during the 1960s. (That was for criminals and sailors.)

What does bother me is getting the mentality wrong or missing obvious stuff, like tomatoes in pre-Columbian Italy.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

snafu1056

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Why don't they ever get fat actors to play Al Capone? The guy was pretty porky, yet he's always portrayed at just kinda stocky at most. All the same, the Untouchables was great
 

CWatts

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Why don't they ever get fat actors to play Al Capone? The guy was pretty porky, yet he's always portrayed at just kinda stocky at most. All the same, the Untouchables was great

I guess for the same reason Lucky Luciano is always the hottie?

The whole Historical Beauty Upgrade trope doesn't annoy me that much, because Hollywood stars are so much better looking than people in general it's kind of unavoidable. That said, having Dan "Matthew Crawley" Stevens playing Charles Dickens is...a bit much.
 

snafu1056

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Or Johnny Depp as Ichabod Crane. Not a historical figure, but talk about a beauty upgrade.
 

CWatts

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Or Johnny Depp as Ichabod Crane. Not a historical figure, but talk about a beauty upgrade.

Yes, also Tom Mison as the modern Ichabod in that fantasy series.
 
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autumnleaf

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I.... actually rather enjoyed Braveheart. Historically speaking it was terrible, but damn those battle scenes are good.
 

VeryBigBeard

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I tend to the opinion that you gotta do what works for the story. Historical nuance is a wonderful thing, and understanding the exact complexities of a conflict is rewarding but often at odds with the needs of pacing and selection of detail. It doesn't have to be--but it takes a lot more skill to show, or at least imply, all the historical nuance, and I think it's better to treasure those works that pull it off rather than ridicule those which don't. After all, adaptation is a huge job in itself.

That said... this column is/was a favourite of mine. It gives credit where due, but it also gets some intellectual savagery in and despite my principles I am OK with that. In some cases.
 

Atlantic12

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I loved the series (and book) I, Claudius. Who cares if they all talked like they were Brits of various classes, using slang and anachronisms at times? The audience is supposed to be a part of their Rome and so should understand everything they're saying without the stuffy distance of speech that tries to sound ancient somehow. I've thought a lot about how stories filter other languages from other eras, and I loved how I, Claudius had the guts to say okay, we're doing modern. And it worked.
 

tallus83

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It all depends. "Pearl harbor" was a historical embarrassment. I refuse to watch the 2nd part DVD. The first DVD is a mass of errors, but the flying and action scenes are fantastic.
 

Some Lonely Scorpio

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This is a subject I admittedly have mixed feelings about. I can be a ruthless, ruthless critic; especially where historical accuracy is concerned. On one hand, minor historical errors and discrepancies are fine so long as they don't 'take me out of the story' for lack of better term. Personally, I want my own writing to be as historically accurate as possible, but I admit I sometimes take small historical liberties/creative license for the sake of the story. Just so long as it's nothing TOO major I'm willing to overlook it, especially in a book, film, etc. I really enjoy.
 

Jan74

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This isn't exactly "history" but watching reality shows like Goldrush & Ice Road Truckers with my husband is informational for sure. EVERYTHING on those shows is for drama only, when you see them hanging out of the trucks going over lakes and freaking out because of the "steep hill" or gears grinding...breakdowns etc...it's all fake and of course it makes me laugh because he has to do the commentary when they are bullshitting something, especially the mechanical things....its very enlightening to watch these shows with someone extremely knowledgeable about machinery etc. The only show he doesn't ruin for me is Deadliest Catch.

So basically if it's on the history channel it's rigged to be dramatic and more comical than anything. But I love ice road truckers and that towing show even if it is nonsense. :)
 

Calder

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The main problem is that, historically speaking, the lives of 99.9% of people was - not to put too fine a point on it - boring! As writers, we need to engage, excite and entertain. A novel about the life and doings of your average 9th century Dane (aka "viking") in England would be comparable to watching paint dry. Okay, they came as warriors, but, once the fighting was over - and it didn't last long - they settled down as farmers, married, had children and tended their crops and livestock. In order to engage, excite, entertain and satisfy their audience/readers, the purveyors of historical fiction needs must concentrate on the extremes of experience. No one wants to read about the mundane. We need heroes and dyed in the wool villains, climactic events and satisfying resolutions. The Oxford English Dictionary describes fiction as "literature in the form of prose, especially novels, that describes imaginary events and people." The key word is "imaginery", which is closely related to "imagination",which is what writers must exercise to engage, excite and entertain their readers. Historical realism is a "no-no". Historical accuracy, within the bounds of creativity and imagination, is a must.
 
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angeliz2k

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Oh, I dunno, Calder. Maybe more like 80%, haha. I mean, my ancestors were pretty ordinary folks who decided to go out to Kansas in the 1850's, and, whoops, ended up hiding from Missourians under floor boards. My grandmother was an average kind of woman, but she lived through the dust bowl as a girl, went to Florida with her family and returned home completely bust, then met a chemical engineer from Pennsylvania during WWII.

HOWEVER, I definitely agree with you. Most people DID leave basically peaceful lives throughout history. They didn't necessarily have high drama every waking moment, and I hate it when shows throw in The Little People to show how awful The Little People lived All the Time. I get it, times could be rough, but that wasn't necessarily all the time for everyone. I think that there are stories for average people just living their lives, too. I'd like to see more of that.
 

DeleyanLee

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I.... actually rather enjoyed Braveheart. Historically speaking it was terrible, but damn those battle scenes are good.

I greatly enjoyed it too, though I laughed in the theater that the Battle of Sterling Bridge didn't even have a bridge in the movie. The battle scenes are amazing and I'll put in the DVD when I want to renew my understanding of perspective for writing battles. The most fun I have with this movie now is kibitzing it with other history-savvy friends.

I tend to the opinion that you gotta do what works for the story. Historical nuance is a wonderful thing, and understanding the exact complexities of a conflict is rewarding but often at odds with the needs of pacing and selection of detail. It doesn't have to be--but it takes a lot more skill to show, or at least imply, all the historical nuance, and I think it's better to treasure those works that pull it off rather than ridicule those which don't. After all, adaptation is a huge job in itself.

This is a subject I admittedly have mixed feelings about. I can be a ruthless, ruthless critic; especially where historical accuracy is concerned. On one hand, minor historical errors and discrepancies are fine so long as they don't 'take me out of the story' for lack of better term. Personally, I want my own writing to be as historically accurate as possible, but I admit I sometimes take small historical liberties/creative license for the sake of the story. Just so long as it's nothing TOO major I'm willing to overlook it, especially in a book, film, etc. I really enjoy.

Depending on the historical era, there can be a great deal of assumptions made to fill in gaps in knowledge. I always enjoy stories that play out in those gaps, but those seem to be rare. Basically, if they don't stomp all over what's known/accepted about the era & location for the sake of their story, I can give it a go. But when you ignore information that's readily available on cable shows, let alone showing up on social media, to tell your story, I'll wallbang your book off your forehead if I have the opportunity. (Looking at you, Wilber Smith and his The River God.)

When writing historical fiction, I try to do what I like--weaving my story into the holes of the unknown in an time period or event. I like to keep as much historical accuracy as possible, however I also write Fantasy so there will be mild changes because of that. It's harder, but that's part of the fun for me.
 

Calder

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"Oh, I dunno, Calder. Maybe more like 80%, haha."

Okay, so I'm prone to a little hyperbole from time to time, but you raise a fascinating point. You're American. I'm British. There's a massive historical difference between the two. America is a comparitively young nation. So, in the mid 1800s, your country was still developing and expanding. Mine, on the other hand, was settled and, to a certain extent, "decided". Of course, there were social and technological changes and developments common to both, but, while your ancestors were hiding under floorboards, mine were digging coal and making pottery, as their ancestors had done and as future generations would continue to do. The nearest parallel I can come up with is that, perhaps, my ancestors had to hide (perhaps not under floorboards) from marauding Vikings, or, since I'm half Scottish, from "Butcher" Cumberland's redcoats.
In 1776, when your fledgling nation declared its independence - with the vast majority of its land-mass virtually unknown and unexplored - Britain already had over a thousand years of history which had directly shaped its, then, condition and societal framework. I believe the main difference is that your country's comparative "youth" gives it a vibrancy, almost an urgency, which we British have long forgotten, or with which we have lost touch. In addition, America is so vast, compared to a tiny island off the North-west coast of Europe. I sometimes wonder how people manage to live in a country which has more than one time-zone!

I tend to agree with you when you say " I think that there are stories for average people just living their lives, too," but such writing is rare and, I'd guess, limited to a blessed few extremely gifted writers. I'm thinking of Thornton Wilder's wonderful "Our Town", or, to bring it nearer to home, Alan Sillitoe's equally magnificent, but very different, "Saturday Night And Sunday Morning".

But, even in such "mirrors held up to reality" there is the drama of the unexpected - Emily's death in childbirth; Arthur's beating at the hands of his adulterous lover's husband. I suppose I'm saying that, even in the most realistic and "down to earth" writing, there is a need for such drama. It's what keeps the reader / audience engaged. I suppose, as writers, we are condemned to eschewing total realism in favour of that which will keep our readers' attention and leads them on to continuing to read.
 
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angeliz2k

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That's an interesting point, that America was still in flux in the mid 19th century. Certainly true. I tend to think it's always in flux. And that certainly isn't to say that Britain wasn't in flux during the same time period. Rapid industrialization, labor unrest, a rise in representation. Though it was settled in the sense of being populated, I don't know that its identity was settled. And therein lie the stories, I think. You can have a story that isn't necessarily about Major Events but illuminated the Major Events of Major Movements while telling a very human story. That's what I'm trying to do with my antebellum stories. Neither of them take place during the Civil War, but except for the shooting part, they're really all about the war because they're all about the society that ruptured into civil war. They aren't exceptional people leading super dramatic lives, but they're part of that puzzle.

My issue is that historical fiction sells so much better when you have a big name or a big event . . .
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

All people, whether "settled" or "pioneers," are going to have major life dramas. A disease that nearly kills you. The relative that runs off with an outsider. Personality conflicts of all sorts, from the minor to the lethal. And so, those basically boring lives are only boring in that they aren't the ones making history. Plus, there's the fact that we don't do things the way they did then, wherever or whenever your "then" happens to be. That means that all historicals are fish out of water stories...for the reader, who doesn't live now in the ocean or river that ran then. And any novel could focus on common people doing things common to that era with the minor life dramas of that era and let the reader get the drama of living then.

In other words, people are people. Drama will happen in everyone's lives even if they don't make history.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Twick

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I agree with Siri Kirpal. There are few times in history when people could just sit back and go "Well, this is nice. A little boring, though." Most people throughout history were struggling to survive. A family that only farms, or digs coal, isn't boring unless the writer makes it so.
 

Jan74

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I agree with Siri Kirpal. There are few times in history when people could just sit back and go "Well, this is nice. A little boring, though." Most people throughout history were struggling to survive. A family that only farms, or digs coal, isn't boring unless the writer makes it so.

^^^I agree with this. Many families were struggling to survive. My own mother was one of 6 and left home at 16 because financially my grandparents couldn't afford to keep her. And that isn't unusual. During the depression boys as young as 9 had to leave home and fend for themselves. Those are interesting stories, how they persevered.
 

Roxxsmom

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

All people, whether "settled" or "pioneers," are going to have major life dramas. A disease that nearly kills you. The relative that runs off with an outsider. Personality conflicts of all sorts, from the minor to the lethal. And so, those basically boring lives are only boring in that they aren't the ones making history. Plus, there's the fact that we don't do things the way they did then, wherever or whenever your "then" happens to be. That means that all historicals are fish out of water stories...for the reader, who doesn't live now in the ocean or river that ran then. And any novel could focus on common people doing things common to that era with the minor life dramas of that era and let the reader get the drama of living then.

In other words, people are people. Drama will happen in everyone's lives even if they don't make history.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

I think this is true. People are people, after all, and it's hard to imagine human lives, however mundane, without any drama or conflict. Whether or not the everyday dramas and struggles of people are interesting or not has a lot to do with how the author presents them, imo. Everyone's struggles are critical matters of life and death to them, and it's the writer's job to present the stakes in a way the reader can relate. There's also a matter of target audience, but the best writers can make you care about someone with whom you have little in common. To a point, at least.
 

Twick

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But, even in such "mirrors held up to reality" there is the drama of the unexpected - Emily's death in childbirth; Arthur's beating at the hands of his adulterous lover's husband. I suppose I'm saying that, even in the most realistic and "down to earth" writing, there is a need for such drama. It's what keeps the reader / audience engaged. I suppose, as writers, we are condemned to eschewing total realism in favour of that which will keep our readers' attention and leads them on to continuing to read.

But there IS drama in "ordinary life." Does everyone you know just sit back going "this is fine?" People have affairs. They get sick. They have money problems, and sometimes have to take desperate measures to solve them. Some people go to jail, some end up living on the streets, and some invent a way to end up with a pile of cash.

Perhaps we don't always *see* the dramatic arcs around us. But they do happen. And it's not unrealistic when they occur in fiction.
 

Roxxsmom

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The historical mistakes that jolt me the most are the ones that don't really make much difference to the story, so they are really unnecessary.

A couple of examples from historical romances I've read lately:

An early 19th-century male character complaining about something being pink. Pink wasn't regarded as an especially unmanly color until the early 20th century.

Same novel, set in early 19th century, with a castle that has was built by William the Conquerer and remodeled by Henry the 8th that has been abandoned and in ruins since the late 1300s. Henry Tudor must have done some time traveling then. Also, a paragraph later, it was mentioned as the 13th century, not the 14th.

A different novel set in the first decade of the 20th century where one character refers to something being against the "Geneva" convention, even though the convention that spawned the idiom didn't occur until the 40s, AFIAK.

None of these are deal breakers, and all of them could be brushed off as brain fart kind of errors (maybe the author meant Henry II remodeled the castle, though one would think an editor of historical romances would catch such a slip) or is due to the internalization of a social value that is so entrenched in our times (the aversion of manly men to all things pink) that one can't conceive of a male character who would happily wear a pink scarf or whatever. But it makes me wonder what else might have slipped through that I didn't catch.

I vaguely remember a book set in the middle ages in England where people were eating "turducken" also. I imagine medieval cooks might have tried such a thing if they'd had access to turkeys, but they didn't. Maybe Gooducken?
 
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frimble3

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I vaguely remember a book set in the middle ages in England where people were eating "turducken" also. I imagine medieval cooks might have tried such a thing if they'd had access to turkeys, but they didn't. Maybe Gooducken?
Peacock-ducken sounds like something you'd do for a regal feast. Actually, the idea would work, if you didn't give it it's modern name: "The carver lifted the skin and cut into the fowl. Those diners nearest him gasped. It was layers, bird within bird, all the way to the center. It made the previous course of giant decorated eggs seem mundane."
I think it's the modern names and terms that make things seem ahistoric. Just describe the thing, and move on.
 
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