Commas and coordinate adjectives

ElaineA

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I thought I understood the rule here, but I've gotten corrections from the proofreader at my publisher removing commas between coordinate adjectives, sometimes subtly changing the meaning of the sentence by doing so. Before I reject the recommendations, or ask for clarification about possible house style (?), I want to be sure I'm not wrong in my usage and understanding of the rule.

I wrote: "long, elegant fingers." They want to remove the comma. This seems like a classic case of coordinate adjectives.

I wrote: "dressed in a crisp, blue cotton shirt." They want to remove the comma, and in my opinion, that would seem to attach crisp to blue, which is not what I mean. I mean the cotton shirt is both blue and crisp (starched). I also don't like the confusing look of crisp blue cotton shirt, but maybe that's a different issue.

These are not the only two coordinate adjective corrections they noted, just two different examples. A look around the Grammar interwebz seems to support my use, but I wanted to triple check. Thanks, in advance, for any input.
 

Anna Iguana

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Your way looks right to me. Asking about house style seems like a good way to go.
 

Dawnstorm

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There's an order of adjectives in English. There are types of adjectives, and you typically only put commas between adjectives of the same type. As a rule of thumb:

If you can reverse the order of the adjectives with no change in meaning, then you use a comma. Would you say "elegant, long fingers", or does the order stound strange (it sounds slightly strange to me). "Blue, crisp cotton shirt" sounds downright wrong to my ear. So I'd agree with your editor: no commas here (though I'm less certain about the first than I am about the second example).

The best detailed explanation I could find is here.
 

KendallDavis

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I am very interested in this issue. l wrestle with it on many instances, but not as the coordinate and cumulative rules stand. Sometimes I want a separate adjective to describe a modifier + noun, as in a cumulative adjective even though it might look like a coordinate order of adjectives. I think my interest is opposite of ElaineA's, but it is the same issue, and I am not working with a publisher.
 

ElaineA

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Dawnstorm, thank you for that link. :e2flowers

I knew about the Royal Order before, and I still don't think I understand how/why the it overrules the basic requirements when they fit, but the link shows very similar set-ups to mine and explains proper use, so I need to get over it. :)

Kendall, if you read the entire link, I think you'll find it helpful, too. At the bottom of the post, the editor explains the series of examples they used after defining the Royal Order. It's enlightening.
 

KendallDavis

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Oh, I love The Editor's Blog! I missed that link in Dawnstorm's post when I was here earlier...duh. Yeah, that is enlightening! I am surprised I have not seen it before when perusing The Editor's Blog.
 

Dawnstorm

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Dawnstorm, thank you for that link. :e2flowers

If it weren't for your question, I might never have stumbled across that blog. I'm happy I found it. That post is thorough, doesn't simplify anything but is easy to read, and has a good sense of priorities.

I knew about the Royal Order before, and I still don't think I understand how/why the it overrules the basic requirements when they fit, but the link shows very similar set-ups to mine and explains proper use, so I need to get over it. :)

I don't really think of the order of adjective as over-ruling anything. Rather, it's a structure in itself that's reflected in punctuation. You wouldn't make a comma between the last adjective and noun, and the other layers of adjectives extend that principle. It's easy to see with compound nouns. "Swimming pool", for example, is nominally two words, but we see it as a compound, as one word with two components. This is why we would never put a comma between an adjective that modifies this "a big swimming pool". That's fairly straightforward, and most people wouldn't even get the idea that the rule might apply here. As you go up the layers, the separation gets less and less intuitive. Most people wouldn't be tempted to put a comma between the adjectives in "my long black hair", but that's no longer quite as obvious.

What this means is that at some point you'll have some people who, left to themselves, would make a comma, while others would leave it out. We'd have variation. But it's the sort of variation that can lead to confusion, because it's deeply rooted in how we think. And because there's confusion, people try to figure out what's going on and make explicit rules (such as the Royal Order of adjectives). These rules half describe what's going on, but they also arbitrate between different mind sets. Because they half describe what's going on, they're not set in stone and there are exceptions that everyone can agree on (the article mentions a couple of exceptions). But as "rules", prescriptions to follow rather than mere regularities in what we do, they are easy to understand and apply.

Now, this applies to pretty much all of language. It applies, for example, to the rules of how to punctuate co-ordination. This rule is easier to understand in its theoretic formulation than the rule about the order of adjectives, and this is why we tend to think the rule is more basic. But we're only talking about theoretic formulation, and the part where this rule is supposed to describe what we actually do may be faulty. It's possible that the rule is really much simpler, but we haven't found the proper formulation yet.

In my mind, this is not a case of one rule over-riding another, it's a case of a hidden, instinctive order: There is no need for a comma in "the big swimming pool", because we instinctively read "swimming pool" as a compound noun. There is no need for a comma in "my long black hair", because "long" and "black" are on different layers of description. Because it's instinctive, this usually only causes problems when there's real world confusion - and these instances are rare.

When we're editing, though, we're not only relying on our intuition. We need to look over our texts with respect to notions such as correctness, and this biases us toward the formulations of the rules, and away from out instinctive language behaviour. Sometimes we find ourselves correcting things that didn't need correcting and we actually introduce a mistake where there wasn't one (google "hypercorrection" if you're interrested). That's because thinking through language and thinking about language are two different things. So when we think about commas and the order of adjective while editing, some of our confusion might stem from the fact that rules have been formulated incompletely, or that language just isn't as logical as we think it should be. That's why it's important to never let go of our intuitions about what sounds good.

So, on to your examples:

1. "Long, elegant fingers" or "Long elegant fingers"? One thing that's interesting here is that the order of adjective seems to violate the order of adjective. In isolation "long" is size, and "elegant" is observation. So according to the rule (as written down in that blog post), we'd expect "elegant long fingers". Interestingly, that order sounds more unnatural to me than what you put down. Is it one of the exceptions, like the "big old ugly purse"?

I personally think that what's going on here is that we reflect cultural beauty standards, and thus we're not using "long" as size, but we're also using it as an observation/opinion. If that's the case, then the comma is correct, and I'm now changing my vote. "Long, elegant fingers", with the comma, is the superior version.

2. "crisp, blue cotton shirt" or "crisp blue cotton shirt". Observation, colour, qualifier --> no comma. That's applying the rule as it is formulated. I intuitively prefer the commaless version, so I have no reason to change your mind. You said that, in your mind, crisp attaches to blue without the comma, but I don't see that. I'd expect "crisply blue cotton shirt" if that were the case. I'm not aware of a compound adjective "crisp blue" (like, say, "dark blue"), and even if there were one, or if you'd feel like coining one, I'd expect "crisp-blue cotton shirt", since compound adjectives in attributive position (i.e. before the verb, not as a stand-alone adjective in the predicate) tend to take hyphens. So, here I'd go pretty unambiguously for "crisp blue cotton shirt".

It's pretty hard to keep both the intuitive mindset and the analytic mindset active in your head, but we need both faculties when editing. Without intuition we risk hypercorrection, but without analysis we're stuck only with our own intuition (and the point of language is to communicate with others).

(I always feel like apologising after such mammoth posts, but I often post them anyway. I'm a bit too theory minded, at times.)
 

BethS

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These are not the only two coordinate adjective corrections they noted, just two different examples. A look around the Grammar interwebz seems to support my use, but I wanted to triple check. Thanks, in advance, for any input.

There seems to be a trend these days toward eliminating all commas between adjectives. Not sure why.

Fwiw, I think your second example actually needs another comma: dressed in a crisp, blue, cotton shirt. Crisp, blue, and cotton are all modifying shirt. It would be different if crisp was modifying blue (crisp blue, as opposed to pale blue or bright blue or deep blue...) But maybe that's the way they're reading it? That crisp refers to the shade of blue and not to the fabric of the shirt?

Long, elegant fingers is correct.

You can always STET the changes. You do get the final say.
 

ElaineA

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There seems to be a trend these days toward eliminating all commas between adjectives. Not sure why.
I know! It's certainly not how I grew up reading or writing, and it's very noticeable (as in, annoying) to me when I read now.

Fwiw, I think your second example actually needs another comma: dressed in a crisp, blue, cotton shirt. Crisp, blue, and cotton are all modifying shirt. It would be different if crisp was modifying blue (crisp blue, as opposed to pale blue or bright blue or deep blue...) But maybe that's the way they're reading it? That crisp refers to the shade of blue and not to the fabric of the shirt?
My instinct is that "modifying" isn't the calculus anymore. This Royal Order thing seems to have supplanted modifying the way I learned it (which is exactly as you argue above), that as long as the adjectives are from different orders, no comma is needed. Crisp=observation, blue=color, cotton=material, thus no comma. It does make me eye-twitchy.

You can always STET the changes. You do get the final say.
Yes, but I also don't want to cause an eyesore for modern readers. They're used to seeing this no-comma method from all the romance publishers I read (including Big-5). I'm holding the line on "long, elegant," but giving in elsewhere. This time. When I'm rich and famous I will have my commas, dammit! :roll:
 

KendallDavis

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How do we measure this trend towards no commas? Is this only in the romance genre? I do not read romance, so I would not know.
 

efreysson

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Rather than have two threads on the subject, can I just sneak in my own question? English is a second language to me, and I've started worrying that I overuse commas. I tend to write sentences like:

"Rather to her own surprise, Serina's thoughts turned to the last time."

...and...

"Whatever was about to happen, she would be ready for it."

Is this correct?
 
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Curlz

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"Rather to her own surprise, Serina's thoughts turned to the last time."

...and...

"Whatever was aboutto happen, she would be ready for it."

Is this correct?
Yes. Both sentences have a dependent clause in front of an independent clause.

Dependent clause=bunch of words that don't make sense on their own ("Rather to her own surprise" needs yet to tell us what happened and to whom it happened.)
Independent clause=subject+verb+other stuff ("She would be ready for it." is okay to make a sentence on it's own, we know who's the subject and what the action they perform).
 

Maryn

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I don't think those are both dependent clauses, but I agree the commas belong because they are both introductory elements. Only the second one is a dependent clause with a subject and predicate.

FWIW, at least some publishers seem to be leaning away from requiring that comma after an introductory element, especially the really short ones like later and soon enough.
 

AW Admin

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Whatever was about to happen

This is not a dependent clause.

It has a subject: Whatever
It has a verb (albeit in the infinitive): to happen

Subject + verb = independent clause aka sentence.
 

KendallDavis

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FWIW, at least some publishers seem to be leaning away from requiring that comma after an introductory element, especially the really short ones like later and soon enough.

I researched authorities on one-word introductory elements because I was working with a lot of And and But (s). I decided to let the tone of the character or the context of the sentence decide on the comma after it. I found several authorities that used this statement: It is permissible, even commonplace, to omit a comma after most brief introductory elements — a prepositional phrase, an adverb, or a noun phrase.

So it makes sense to me that publishers may lean away from commas in that instance, but I did not find that a comma was required. Would a requirement to comma or to not comma after short intro elements be considered a house style?
 

DanielSTJ

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There's an order of adjectives in English. There are types of adjectives, and you typically only put commas between adjectives of the same type. As a rule of thumb:

If you can reverse the order of the adjectives with no change in meaning, then you use a comma. Would you say "elegant, long fingers", or does the order stound strange (it sounds slightly strange to me). "Blue, crisp cotton shirt" sounds downright wrong to my ear. So I'd agree with your editor: no commas here (though I'm less certain about the first than I am about the second example).

The best detailed explanation I could find is here.

Thanks for this link, Dawnstorm!

Very good reference. I always like to utilize all the tools available for writing. NICE.