Uluru closing to climbers.

If Uluru were located in the United States, today it would be privatized, sold to the highest bidder, and sponsored via advertising. You could paint a hella lot of big adverts on that thing.

Oh, and it would be renamed 'Trump Rock'.

caw

Am I the only one that thinks it's a bit silly? I mean, they're closing it to climbers, not because it's being eroded and in danger of being destroyed or anything, but because some people think it's magic, or something, right? But...it's just a big rock. It's not magic.

I dunno, I don't get it...

The indigenous people of the area consider it sacred. Consider how the white settlers muscled their way in.

JimmyB27 said:

Am I the only one that thinks it's a bit silly? I mean, they're closing it to climbers, not because it's being eroded and in danger of being destroyed or anything, but because some people think it's magic, or something, right? But...it's just a big rock. It's not magic.

I dunno, I don't get it...

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What's there to get?

Say the National Guard came and took the doors off your house so that people could come and go any time of the day and night...and they ate your food and rifled through your things...and they pissed and shat and threw trash all over the place. All over your safe place. That place that gives you a sense of stability and security in a random and dangerous world. And any time you tried to protest or stop them, everyone just laughed you off and derided your superstitious attachment to your place and things.

What's there to get?

SWest said:

What's there to get?

Say the National Guard came and took the doors off your house so that people could come and go any time of the day and night...and they ate your food and rifled through your things...and they pissed and shat and threw trash all over the place. All over your safe place. That place that gives you a sense of stability and security in a random and dangerous world. And any time you tried to protest or stop them, everyone just laughed you off and derided your superstitious attachment to your place and things.

What's there to get?

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Well, yeah, but the people were really enjoying coming and going and trashing your house, and it became this whole thing to come and do, and now you're ruining the whole deal by closing a door. Talk about selfish... (/sarcasm, if unclear.)

JimmyB27 said:

I dunno, I don't get it...

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True. You don't.

caw

JimmyB27 said:

Am I the only one that thinks it's a bit silly? I mean, they're closing it to climbers, not because it's being eroded and in danger of being destroyed or anything, but because some people think it's magic, or something, right? But...it's just a big rock. It's not magic.

I dunno, I don't get it...

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Yeah, how silly. Like closing the area around Devil's Tower in Wyoming for a period every year out of respect to the indigenous peoples who use the site, or how people have been charged with crimes for painting what they consider art or carving their names on rocks in national parks. I mean, they're just rocks, right? It's just paint.

Do you have any idea how badly the gov't of Australia has fucked with the native population?

JimmyB27 said:

Am I the only one that thinks it's a bit silly? I mean, they're closing it to climbers, not because it's being eroded and in danger of being destroyed or anything, but because some people think it's magic, or something, right? But...it's just a big rock. It's not magic.

I dunno, I don't get it...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure how to respond to this. It's not public land. It is owned by the Pitjantjatjara Anangu people, the Traditional Owners. They haven't always had title over it, of course. Not in the 'western' sense. Since the arrival of the First Fleet in 1788 there's been a systematic policy of dispossessing Indigenous people of their lands. Title was only handed back in the 1980s. Even then, it came with a catch -- the Traditional Owners had to lease it back to the govt for tourism. IIRC, there was even some agreement at that time to stop tourists climbing Uluru. But, fmd, we white folk have to have our way.

And since 1788, the Brits, then Australian-born white people have done all they can to subjugate -- indeed, eradicate -- Indigenous people, so you might get a notion of why it's incredibly offensive and a rolled gold example of privilege to dismiss it as of no consideration because 'some people think it's magic'.

One tourist from Queensland, Pamela, says she read the signs. But she says: "I am going to do it anyway because this will be the last chance, because next year they are closing it off and next year I will be too old."

She admits she hasn't thought too much about the sacred nature of the rock.


"It's because of my ego I want to climb it," she says. "I just turned 70 and I have two replacement knees and I want to see if I can do it."

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They should just close it now. No one's ego is worth the cultural or spiritual cost to the Indigenous people, or the damage to a sacred site. And it is being damaged. Tourists are wearing a path to the top.

"Their shoes they are scraping away at the rock, little by little bit. It's now like a rope when you see it from far away. It wasn't meant to be like that."

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(Link to article.)

JimmyB27 said:

I mean, they're closing it to climbers, not because it's being eroded and in danger of being destroyed or anything, but because some people think it's magic, or something, right? But...it's just a big rock. It's not magic.

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It's just climbing. It's not something people need to do to survive.

JimmyB27 said:

Am I the only one that thinks it's a bit silly? I mean, they're closing it to climbers, not because it's being eroded and in danger of being destroyed or anything, but because some people think it's magic, or something, right? But...it's just a big rock. It's not magic.

I dunno, I don't get it...

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Well, look at it this way. People get a lot more offended at vandalism of a church/mosque/synagogue, etc. than any other building. Even people that aren't part of that particular group. Would you say the same thing about those places?

Showing respect for the sincerely held beliefs of first nations people is not silly. Its a bit of basic human decency that is very very overdue.

In addition, the Traditional Owners want to prevent these avoidable deaths.

JimmyB27 said:

But...it's just a big rock. It's not magic.

I dunno, I don't get it...

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I have never seen Uluru 'live', but I have seen clips of the sun rising and going down on that 'big rock'.
If you have eyes to see, it is magic.
And if the people who have been closest to it for centuries believe that it is holy, or sacred, they certainly know more about it than tourists, climbers and trekkers.

cornflake said:

Do you have any idea how badly the gov't of Australia has fucked with the native population?

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I am very aware of it. And of all the horrendous things that have been done to them, walking on a rock seems pretty insignificant in comparison.

Helix said:

I'm not sure how to respond to this. It's not public land. It is owned by the Pitjantjatjara Anangu people, the Traditional Owners. They haven't always had title over it, of course. Not in the 'western' sense. Since the arrival of the First Fleet in 1788 there's been a systematic policy of dispossessing Indigenous people of their lands. Title was only handed back in the 1980s. Even then, it came with a catch -- the Traditional Owners had to lease it back to the govt for tourism. IIRC, there was even some agreement at that time to stop tourists climbing Uluru. But, fmd, we white folk have to have our way.

And since 1788, the Brits, then Australian-born white people have done all they can to subjugate -- indeed, eradicate -- Indigenous people, so you might get a notion of why it's incredibly offensive and a rolled gold example of privilege to dismiss it as of no consideration because 'some people think it's magic'.

Click to expand...

To be clear, I think it's great that they've got control of their land back, that part of it is long overdue. I'm also not saying 'we white folk have to have our way', they obviously have every right to do what they want with their land, I just don't get the reasoning behind not letting people walk on it. It's just a rock.

Technophobe said:

Well, look at it this way. People get a lot more offended at vandalism of a church/mosque/synagogue, etc. than any other building. Even people that aren't part of that particular group. Would you say the same thing about those places?

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Yup.

veinglory said:

Showing respect for the sincerely held beliefs of first nations people is not silly. Its a bit of basic human decency that is very very overdue.

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I respect their right to hold those beliefs, but I don't respect the beliefs themselves, I think they're as silly as any other religious nonsense.

frimble3 said:

I have never seen Uluru 'live', but I have seen clips of the sun rising and going down on that 'big rock'.
If you have eyes to see, it is magic.
And if the people who have been closest to it for centuries believe that it is holy, or sacred, they certainly know more about it than tourists, climbers and trekkers.

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It's not magic, there's no such thing as magic. It's pretty, sure, but not magic.

JimmyB27 said:

I am very aware of it. And of all the horrendous things that have been done to them, walking on a rock seems pretty insignificant in comparison.

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It seems pretty insignificant to you. I'll bet it's pretty significant to the indigenous people in question.

I just don't get the reasoning behind not letting people walk on it. It's just a rock.

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I'm just curious. If people want to walk on "a rock", couldn't they find another rock to walk on?

Why is walking on this particular rock so very special that people must do it? I just don't get the reasoning behind this.

JimmyB27 said:

I am very aware of it. And of all the horrendous things that have been done to them, walking on a rock seems pretty insignificant in comparison.

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To you, mate. Not to the people to whom it is significant. And this is the attitude that's the problem. Signs at the base of Uluru explain that visitors are welcome onto the land, but the Traditional Owners prefer that people do not climb it because of its importance to them. Yet people still have to fucking climb it, because their pathetic needs are more important than anyone else's.

JimmyB27 said:

To be clear, I think it's great that they've got control of their land back, that part of it is long overdue. I'm also not saying 'we white folk have to have our way', they obviously have every right to do what they want with their land, I just don't get the reasoning behind not letting people walk on it. It's just a rock.

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It's not difficult to understand. Uluru is sacred to the Traditional Owners. Not only are walkers clambering all over it, pissing and taking dumps on it, and damaging it, but they are dying on it. How about you try taking a shit in the middle of St Paul's Cathedral and see what happens.

JimmyB27 said:

I respect their right to hold those beliefs, but I don't respect the beliefs themselves, I think they're as silly as any other religious nonsense.

It's not magic, there's no such thing as magic. It's pretty, sure, but not magic.

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Mate, they don't think it's magic. You're applying glib western terms for something that's clearly beyond your ken and you're not even willing to make the effort to understand. This is about as fkn colonial as it gets.

It's their land. They don't want people to climb on it. The reason behind that is ultimately irrelevant.

Helix said:

It's their land. They don't want people to climb on it. The reason behind that is ultimately irrelevant.

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I agree with this much, and now I'm going to throw away my shovel and stop digging.

Helix said:

It's not difficult to understand. Uluru is sacred to the Traditional Owners. Not only are walkers clambering all over it, pissing and taking dumps on it, and damaging it, but they are dying on it. How about you try taking a shit in the middle of St Paul's Cathedral and see what happens.

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This.

Helix said:

It's not difficult to understand. Uluru is sacred to the Traditional Owners. Not only are walkers clambering all over it, pissing and taking dumps on it, and damaging it, but they are dying on it. How about you try taking a shit in the middle of St Paul's Cathedral and see what happens.

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Makes me think of the interview with Jenn. Lawrence where she was talking about how they were told to stay off a certain copse of rocks while filming in Hawaii, because they were sacred ancestral stones. Then she bursts out laughing about how it was hard to leave them alone because they just so good for "butt-scratching" when she got an itch. From there it spiraled into how she was the source of the "Kahuna curse" (ala the Brady Bunch) when things went wrong on set.

How do you do that? I mean seriously, how?

You wouldn't go into a cemetery and scratch yourself with a gravestone, would you?

It's disrespectful, shameful, (often illegal), and the height of entitlement to completely disregard the use and meaning behind someone else's property and culture. And it's so, so easy NOT TO DO THE THING they ask you not to do.

And you know that even after it's officially closed, jerks will sneak up there, just because they figure they can.

I think the government should introduce one of two policies if they catch them: First, if they get into trouble, declare the surrounding area a no-go zone, and see if they can make it out on their own Second, if they're spotted, 'rescue' them, by force and helicopter if necessary, and bill them the full cost. That should settle them down.

The usual argument against charging for rescues is that it might deter someone who has had a genuine accident. Well, they've no legitimate reason to be up there, so charge them financially and criminally.

And, if no-one knows they're up there, and they never come home, well.....

I feel sorry for Uluru. It's a big, stable, defenceless rock.
Most mountains can take care of themselves. Avalanches, landslides, gale-force winds whipping across the ice, crevasses. Look at the death rate on Everest. If that mountain doesn't want you climbing it, it smacks you like a bug.
It's the same for most of the major climbing mountains.
What kind of a jerk hassles peaceful Uluru?

Cyia said:

And it's so, so easy NOT TO DO THE THING they ask you not to do.

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Exactly. Maybe there's something so compelling and magical (heh) about climbing that people have to do it, or they'll be deeply sad. That's fine. There are other big rocks in the world. I'm sure there are even other big rocks in Australia. Go climb one of those, and everyone's happy.

There's a walking track around the foot of Uluru and -- a bit further away -- there's a road. Visitors can look at it from a light plane, if they like. That's a good way to see it, because you can see Uluru, Kata Tjuta and Mt Conner, which are all part of the same formation.

Insisting that one's right to climb Uluru overrides the wishes of the Traditional Owners is ugly entitlement, no matter how much rationalisation is tacked on.