First Shoe

ElaineA · Oct 30, 2017

...has Manafort's foot in it, along with a long-time business partner, Rick Gates.

I have to assume Manafort's going to take the Fifth, but I do find it intriguing the first charge is said to be money laundering, not collusion. (This is not yet confirmed.)

Personally, not feeling as giddy as many on Twitter, etc, since T has slithered out of pretty much every serious predicament he's ever faced. I do hold out hope about smearing Manafort all over Pence (Manafort's personal pick for VP). Getting him out of there first would make me giddy so we wouldn't have to sit in horror knowing he'd be next in line if they manage to lever T out of there.

Lyv · Oct 30, 2017

The indictment. "Conspiracy against the United States."

Twick · Oct 30, 2017

Apparently Fox News has been running the breaking story of - the debate about whether cheese should be put over or under the patty in a cheeseburger.

Kaiser-Kun · Oct 30, 2017

Uh oh. S omeone 's getting antsy.

Twick said:
Apparently Fox News has been running the breaking story of - the debate about whether cheese should be put over or under the patty in a cheeseburger.

What kind of lameass debate is that? OVER!

Ari Meermans · Oct 30, 2017

George Papadopoulos guilty plea on false statements to FBI wrt meetings with Russia: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4163402/Papadopoulos-Statement-Offense.pdf

This is even bigger than Manafort.

shakeysix · Oct 30, 2017

Trump's tweets should read hysteric instead of historic! -s6

nighttimer · Oct 30, 2017

Twick said:
Apparently Fox News has been running the breaking story of - the debate about whether cheese should be put over or under the patty in a cheeseburger.

Fox News treats the news as something of an afterthought. Stories about whether you put the cheese and lettuce under or over a burger are very important. Fair and balanced!

Ari Meermans said:
George Papadopoulos guilty plea on false statements to FBI wrt meetings with Russia: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4163402/Papadopoulos-Statement-Offense.pdf

This is even bigger than Manafort.

Nah. Now that I know I've been wrong all these years putting the lettuce on top of the burger, I is ashamed.... :e2bummed:

Celia Cyanide · Oct 30, 2017

Kaiser-Kun said:
Uh oh. S omeone 's getting antsy.

What kind of lameass debate is that? OVER!

Uh, YEAH! It's a Cheeseburger, not a Burgercheese!

Lyv · Oct 30, 2017

Celia Cyanide said:
Uh, YEAH! It's a Cheeseburger, not a Burgercheese!

Nooooooo...it's all a Nothingburger! ExceptHerEmails.

cbenoi1 · Oct 30, 2017

Ari Meermans said:
This is even bigger than Manafort.

Meh. Waiting for Jr and Kushner's turn.

-cb

Brightdreamer · Oct 30, 2017

I can't believe this. I really just can't. How far have we fallen as a country, to come to this?

People put cheese *under* the patty?

(As for the other news... I'm waiting to see what other dominoes fall before getting in any way excited. Once bitten twice shy on the hope front...)

cbenoi1 · Oct 30, 2017

Brightdreamer said:
People put cheese *under* the patty?

When you come to think of it, having the cheese on top means the cook has to slide the cheese patty off his spatula with a finger. Just flipping the patty over the lower bun avoids that. It's BRILLIANT.

-cb

BenPanced · Oct 30, 2017

Lyv said:
Nooooooo...it's all a Nothingburger! ExceptHerEmails.

HerEmails™! Now uranium-enriched!

Chris P · Oct 30, 2017

cbenoi1 said:
When you come to think of it, having the cheese on top means the cook has to slide the cheese patty off his spatula with a finger. Just flipping the patty over the lower bun avoids that. It's BRILLIANT.

-cb

Except the spatula will scrape off the cheese as it takes the patty off the griddle. Unless, of course, you put a cold cheese slice on the bun then put the patty on top, which an offence Mueller REALLY needs to indict.

Brightdreamer · Oct 30, 2017

cbenoi1 said:
When you come to think of it, having the cheese on top means the cook has to slide the cheese patty off his spatula with a finger. Just flipping the patty over the lower bun avoids that. It's BRILLIANT.

-cb

Or one could put the cheese on top of the hot patty once it's off the spatula and on the lower half of the bun. (At least, that's what I do at home; cheese melts fine if the patty's hot.)

Gregg · Oct 30, 2017

I heard Manafort's bail was set at $10 million - and, apparently, he's looking at a long prison term for money laundering, tax evasion.............
But there is no mention of Trump/Russia/collusion in the indictment.
We'll have to wait and see if Manafort has some information relating to Trump/Russia/collusion to trade for a lighter sentence.

blacbird · Oct 30, 2017

Gregg said:
I heard Manafort's bail was set at $10 million - and, apparently, he's looking at a long prison term for money laundering, tax evasion.............
But there is no mention of Trump/Russia/collusion in the indictment.
We'll have to wait and see if Manafort has some information relating to Trump/Russia/collusion to trade for a lighter sentence.

Every legal expert I saw interviewed on the news today said the same thing: This is a purely strategic move by Mueller to get Manafort's attention, and that it is likely there will be more charges, unless Manafort cuts some kind of deal to provide information. The latter, apparently, is just what Pappadopolous has already done, which was just revealed today.

The Trump claim that "there is no collusion", at this point, has the substance of morning fog at dawn. Even more pathetic is his continuing attempt to switch the attention to Hillary Clinton. Even if there is something to be investigated with Clinton, that doesn't change anything about what's being investigated with Trump. It's like Ted Bundy trying to get off by pointing the finger at John Gacy. And Mueller wasn't appointed to investigate Hillary Clinton. He was appointed to investigate the campaign activities of the President of the United States, who happens to be . . . ?

And as for "first shoe", this creature appears to be a centipede.

caw

James D. Macdonald · Oct 30, 2017

Twick said:
Apparently Fox News has been running the breaking story of - the debate about whether cheese should be put over or under the patty in a cheeseburger.

This reminds me of the day when General Noriega was indicted for drug trafficking. In Panama City, La Prensa, the anti-government newspaper, didn't get printed that day. The Miami Herald appeared, with huge swatches of white space where entire stories had been deleted. But El Siglo, the pro-government newspaper, appeared with a splash headline ... about werewolves in Chilibre.

Roxxsmom · Oct 30, 2017

blacbird said:
And as for "first shoe", this creature appears to be a centipede.

caw

Well said.

Twick said:
Apparently Fox News has been running the breaking story of - the debate about whether cheese should be put over or under the patty in a cheeseburger.

This is just so weird. Who has ever put the cheese and other condiments under the bun? I've never been in a restaurant where it was served that way. I've never even heard of this. As if America wasn't polarized enough over political issues. Now we'll be segregating our dinner guests over hamburger mechanics.

Maggie Maxwell · Oct 30, 2017

Roxxsmom said:
Well said.

This is just so weird. Who has ever put the cheese and other condiments under the bun? I've never been in a restaurant where it was served that way. I've never even heard of this. As if America wasn't polarized enough over political issues. Now we'll be segregating our dinner guests over hamburger mechanics.

Cheeseburgers are the new toilet paper roll: over or under?

rugcat · Oct 30, 2017

It shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone that Paul Manafort was arrested. Even looking from the outside, it was abundantly clear that he was involved illegal lobbying, working for a foreign government against the interests of the United States without mentioning that a foreign government was paying him – not a legal way to operate.

Also, it was obvious he was involved in money laundering – the only question was whether it could be proven, and the Feds have some very good white collar crime investigators.

But as the WH quickly pointed out, those charges have nothing to do with collusion and there's no indication that Donald Trump was involved in any fashion. And I don't believe Muller's investigation will turn up any evidence of active collusion with the Russians – it's a hard thing to prove.

They may well find instances of inappropriate and problematic dealings with Russia by campaign officials, which may bring down several more people for lying to the FBI, but the hard legal evidence of active collusion will not be there.

Now, Manafort has been a crook for decades, and has known Donald Trump for decades as well. But just because you hang around with crooks doesn't mean you yourself are a crook, legally speaking. But I find it difficult to believe that Donald Trump was not involved in some of the same sort of shady and outright illegal transactions having to do with large sums of money.

And I think that's what Bob Muller is going to come up with – if he can get hold of Trumps tax returns, the information from them involving his financial transactions will eventually lead to some very bad consequences for the President.

Unless of course, he's fired first. I used to think Trump wouldn't be able to get away with that – that even the Republicans would see it as going too far and finally rise up against him. But now? I think the GOP faithful will rally around him and proclaim Muller went for beyond his mission and that Trump was absolutely right to fire him. They've decided to go all in with Trump, sink or swim.

But firing Mueller could have some bad political consequences – Trump's base will never desert him, but many independants who voted for him to shake things up might see congressional support for the firing as a bridge too far. And possibly that
would affect republicans in the House and Senate running for reelection, though that's very difficult to predict.

ElaineA · Oct 30, 2017

Dare I admit I put the cheese...inside the patty, mixed with the meat?

OK, not always. Don't disqualify me from Americanhood!

As to rugcat's post,

1) If Trump fires Mueller, the Senate can hire him right back, and we'll see how many R's want to hitch their careers to Trump's burning wagon. R's are already coming out saying Trump better keep hands off. Like with Nixon, those who protect him will go down with him.

2) The NY AG Schneiderman has jurisdiction to continue a lot of the investigation, since much of it happened in NY, and I'm pretty sure he will, if necessary.

3) This is the very tippy tip-top of the iceberg. These charges were filed because some of the events were bumping up against the statute of limitations. There are moving pieces all over the board.

4) According to several attorneys I heard speak today, collusion is not a legal term applicable to this situation, so they don't have to worry about "finding evidence of hard, active collusion." (And here's a good POLITICO debrief about it.) The legal issue is conspiracy, or attempt to commit conspiracy, and of that, it seems, there is plenty of smoke swirling. Whether provable before a jury (or Congress, in the case of the President), isn't yet clear.

Roxxsmom · Oct 30, 2017

ElaineA said:
Dare I admit I put the cheese...inside the patty, mixed with the meat?

OK, not always. Don't disqualify me from Americanhood!

You mean you mix chunks of cheese in with the hamburger meat when you're making the patties? I've seen that done. It's sort of the cheesy equivalent of mixing a package of Lipton French onion soup in with the meat for flavor.

Maggie Maxwell said:
Cheeseburgers are the new toilet paper roll: over or under?

Oh, dear. What about option C, leaving the roll propped up on the empty cardboard center of the last roll on the dispenser? What is the burgerly equivalent of that?

rugcat said:
Now, Manafort has been a crook for decades, and has known Donald Trump for decades as well. But just because you hang around with crooks doesn't mean you yourself are a crook, legally speaking. But I find it difficult to believe that Donald Trump was not involved in some of the same sort of shady and outright illegal transactions having to do with large sums of money.

This, and the rest of your post, is pretty much what I've been thinking too. It's hard to say what could happen, but there could be a lot more coming out in the future. Whether they'll find a smoking gun that proves beyond reasonable doubt that Trump was complicit in all this? Hard to say at this point, but it's not impossible.

I'm also wondering if Trump might try pardoning someone who has dirt that could come out in his testimony. That seems like the sort of thing he'd do. Like you, though, I've all but given up hope that the Republicans in congress would cry foul on even something that blatant.

Hopefully it will make him look guilty as sin to every American who isn't a die-hard supporter, though.

cbenoi1 · Oct 30, 2017

That's it. I'm calling for pizza tonight.

-cb

Maggie Maxwell · Oct 30, 2017

Roxxsmom said:
Oh, dear. What about option C, leaving the roll propped up on the empty cardboard center of the last roll on the dispenser? What is the burgerly equivalent of that?

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