HELP... MG or YA?

Where did you hear that MG ignores inner conflicts and emotions? It's not generally the front-and-center main plot point, but it's definitely there, at least in the stuff I've read, influencing character decisions and growth.

Sounds like upper MG to me, especially as you wrote it with that audience in mind.

My suggestion: get up your post count and post something in SYW.

CottonChops MacGee said:

So, I've finished a manuscript and I'm having such a horrible time trying to decide if it's MG or YA.

It's 70,000 words, which is very long for MG. Not unheard of, but generally frowned upon it seems.
The characters are 12 (on the cusp of 13), so they're a bit young for most "YA" audiences.

There's also the general consensus that YA explores inner conflicts, changes and emotions more than MG, while MG tends to ignore these and focus more on the plot. The manuscript is extremely plot driven, but there's still enough focus on emotions, thought-processes, and inner conflicts that I'm not sure where the manuscript lands.

Also, the prose, I feel, is toeing the line between MG simplicity and YA complexity.

Basically, it all comes down to me feeling like my book lands smack dab between MG and YA.
And I don't know how agents feel about that.
I wrote this book as MG, but I feel there's enough YA in it that maybe I shouldn't label it as MG...?

Gah! Any suggestions/guidance would be greatly appreciated!

Have any of you had similar issues? How did you decide?

Click to expand...

As Bd said, MG focuses on inner conflicts, changes and emotions all the time -- just often different ones than YA. Most YA character conflicts are about their own life choices, moving forward, making autonomous decisions, romances, social issues usually larger than those in MG (YA would generally tilt toward say, racial injustice or sexual assault while MG would more often be about bullying, cheating, though these all could cross -- in *general*). The conflicts in MG tend to be more about autonomy not like what college/career/life/what am I doing, who am I going to be but about more minor freedoms from parents or guardians, less on romance, etc.

These are all the function of the age groups, and vice versa. The protagonists in MG novels don't drive, thus there aren't plots about someone's friend drove drunk and offed the cheerleader who was dating his best friend and now conflict. The protagonists in YA novels are generally past the point of having to ask permission to ride their bike to their friend's, so sneaking away and getting caught at the abandoned house where everyone meets to play D&D isn't a big plot. High school kids can't really relate to chapters worrying about getting caught sneaking down the street; 12-year-olds don't relate to getting stopped by the cops while driving.

Twelve years old is solid MG territory. Thirteen is on that line between, and is problematic to query and place, traditionally, but if your MC is 12, it's unlikely to be YA.

The voice is typically different for mid grade and YA also. The thing is, you want your story to be related in a voice that would appeal to a modern kid who is (if for MG) in the 8-12 age range, or (if YA) in the 14-17 age range. It needs to sound the way a kid of that age actually talks and thinks. Fourteen seems to be the protagonist age no one wants, because it's a bit too old to be relatable to many mid grade readers but too young to be relatable to most YA readers. A thirteen-year-old protagonist is most likely going to appeal to older MG readers, not high school aged kids.

The differences in voice are hard to articulate, and maybe I'm not doing it as well as someone else could. YA is more likely to have a voice that is deeply self introspective, irreverent, maybe even snarky, jaded, or profane. Problems with things like drugs and alcohol are not just dealt with by proxies (such as parents or older siblings), but may be issues for a YA protagonist themselves.

Younger kids and teens aren't expected to be as jaded yet, nor are jaded characters always as relatable to younger kids. This doesn't mean younger kids don't have complex emotional lives, though, or that books with an emotional bent can't fly in MG. Judy Blume's books remain very popular with MG readers, and they're very emotional.

Consider that what is cool to a later-grade-school reader will not sound cool to a reader in middle school, let alone high school. Same thing for what's considered overwhelming, scary, intolerable (as in limitations imposed by parents), or challenging. There is a difference in attitude that takes place between elementary school and high school. MG can be dark and scary, and there can even be death, but generally there's an underlying optimism or hope which isn't as mandatory in YA.

And MG doesn't typically allow overt swearing or graphic gore or sex. With YA, these things are allowed if they serve the story.

The best advice I've seen is to read a lot of books in both demographic and try to ferret out what the differences are. There are exceptions to every rule--books that fall in the cracks and do well, but the more you know about these age demographics and the interests of readers in these age groups, the more likely you are to correctly make the call about your own.

http://www.writersdigest.com/online-editor/the-key-differences-between-middle-grade-vs-young-adult

http://www.yahighway.com/2011/10/middle-grade-voice.html

http://www.stacylwhitman.com/2011/09/07/some-thoughts-on-middle-grade-voice/

Some great answers to the Op concerns above.

I'd add, if it's word count you're concerned about, don't be. If it's valid, it's valid. (But, if it can be cut, at all, cut it)

Sounds to me like it's 'challenging' MG, which is fine. The Tween category exists (11-15), but I'd suggest querying it as MG, as I get the impression 'tween' is viewed as a hard sell.

The reason I suspect this is MG, is that when a writer sets out to write YA, it tends to be a YA novel. But MG writers, who feel kids might not 'get it', do tend to feel YA might be safer marketing territory. As long as there's no sexual relationship or drug use by the MCs, issues in it, I'd say, go MG.

Everyone here has been spot on.

A few blunt things:
- regardless of all other things, 12 can't be YA. Too young.
- 70K isn't too long. My first MG was 80K and my most recent series each are somewhere mid 60K. You're fine. (I mean it might be too long just because it's too long, as the queen of longwinded I know from cutting )
- voice is very important in MG, I second the motion of posting to SYW when you get your 50 posts
- YA isn't better or cooler than MG (not that you said that, but many do think it). In fact right now MG is the hot market of the two. MG is an awesome category with a ton of variety and complex interesting stories.

I have seen a few books with 12-year-old MCs in the YA section of the library - though they always seemed to me to be out of place there, and I wondered why the staff had chosen to place them there. And there are even one or two adult books with MCs that young (the Flavia de Luce series, for example).

But I agree that if your lead is twelve, MG seems the most appropriate category.

For me, the MG/YA line is more in the tone and themes. Is there a love interest and a leaving-the-nest theme? Probably YA. Is it more about platonic friendships and learning about the wideness of the world? Probably MG. Could you age your characters up to YA range without changing much? Probably YA. Would aging your characters up radically change the plot and character relationships? Probably MG.

In general, it's your agent's job to figure out how best to pitch your story to editors. I'd pitch it as MG or YA depending on the agent's own preferences, and let them advise you on its placement after you've hooked 'em.

70K isn't too long isn't too long though. I mean, look at the first Harry Potter book. But that was a fantasy book, which tend to be longer, so...

Yeah, what the others said about word count. That's not really the issue, it's the 'topic' and how it is handled. I write YA and MG and the issues and voices are definitely different. When in doubt get in a critique group with other writers who do kid stuff. They will be able to help. But also, as others have stated 12 is on the young side. Kids tend to read up. Meaning they typically read about MCs who are older than they are not younger. FWIW - the main character in my MG is 12, in my YA she is 17. The MG deals with school issues, friend issues, siblings, family, the YA deals with romance, finances, crime, and has a death/murder, so a bit different as far as what is covered. These aren't absolutes by any means, just rough industry guidelines. MGs are getting edgier. To really get a feel for kid's stuff of any age, do a lot of reading in that age group.

I ended up rewriting my previously YA fantasy novel as MG and aging my characters down a couple of years because my agent felt that the themes and tones were more suited to the MG market. But it's definitely upper MG, toeing the line of YA, I think.

There's definitely a lot of gray area. The Harry Potter series starts out MG and then starts to drift more toward YA as it goes on. I'd recommend reading plenty of examples of both categories to get a feel for what they're like.

Brightdreamer said:

My suggestion: get up your post count and post something in SYW.

Click to expand...

This will help a lot (And a good way to get your post-count up is to crit other people. THey'll likely return the favour when the time comes.)

Melody said:

The MG deals with school issues, friend issues, siblings, family, the YA deals with romance, finances, crime, and has a death/murder, so a bit different as far as what is covered. These aren't absolutes by any means, just rough industry guidelines. MGs are getting edgier.

Click to expand...

I just want to say that I don't really think MGs are getting edgier, I think that people just don't realise how dark they have always been. Yes an MG might not deal with finances, though they can certainly deal with poverty etc (heck the Ramona books had a lot to do with how little money her family had), but murder/death and crime? That stuff has been in MG since forever. Just read Peter Pan . Or Goosebumps. I'm not saying one must go dark suddenly to write MG, but that there really is a great deal of subject matter that can be covered, and really, as we've have been saying it's really a lot more about voice and how the subject matter is handled than the subject itself.

Toothpaste said:

I just want to say that I don't really think MGs are getting edgier, I think that people just don't realise how dark they have always been. Yes an MG might not deal with finances, though they can certainly deal with poverty etc (heck the Ramona books had a lot to do with how little money her family had), but murder/death and crime? That stuff has been in MG since forever. Just read Peter Pan . Or Goosebumps. I'm not saying one must go dark suddenly to write MG, but that there really is a great deal of subject matter that can be covered, and really, as we've have been saying it's really a lot more about voice and how the subject matter is handled than the subject itself.

Click to expand...

I agree. Some of Dahl's work is pretty dark (the Three Witches ending anyone?).

playground said:

I agree. Some of Dahl's work is pretty dark (the Three Witches ending anyone?).

Click to expand...

Yeah, I admired the gutsiness of having the main character (who had been transformed into a mouse against his will) actually stay a mouse, with the shortened lifespan that that implied. The movie changed this, not surprisingly, and it felt like a cop-out.

t0dd said:

I have seen a few books with 12-year-old MCs in the YA section of the library - though they always seemed to me to be out of place there, and I wondered why the staff had chosen to place them there. And there are even one or two adult books with MCs that young (the Flavia de Luce series, for example).

But I agree that if your lead is twelve, MG seems the most appropriate category.

Click to expand...

I've read two recent releases with 12-year-old protagonists that the (Big 5) publishers classified as YA. These are the exception, obviously, and in both cases, there seemed to be a clear reason. In one book, the MC had to deal with inappropriate and sexually tinged behavior from adults. Sexual acts were alluded to. The other book implied there was ongoing incest in the MC's family. So there are some types of mature content that might occasion a category switch.

But there are plenty of MG novels where the focus is internal — all about the MC's personal development. MG can broach issues like being displaced by Hurricane Katrina, or losing a parent or friend, or having a relative who's addicted to opiates. That last example (The S3venth Wish by K@te Messner) caused controversy in certain schools, but also received a lot of positive attention for tackling the issue.

So, unless your voice "feels YA" to readers or your story contains R-rated or extremely sensitive content, I'd probably go with MG. OTOH, if the book has a YA voice and YA themes (as judged by many readers with expertise in the category), I'd age the character up.

Toothpaste said:

I just want to say that I don't really think MGs are getting edgier, I think that people just don't realise how dark they have always been. Yes an MG might not deal with finances, though they can certainly deal with poverty etc (heck the Ramona books had a lot to do with how little money her family had), but murder/death and crime? That stuff has been in MG since forever. Just read Peter Pan . Or Goosebumps. I'm not saying one must go dark suddenly to write MG, but that there really is a great deal of subject matter that can be covered, and really, as we've have been saying it's really a lot more about voice and how the subject matter is handled than the subject itself.

Click to expand...

I agree. I'm surprised that people haven't actually read a lot of kids books with dark themes already though. Didn't they read them as children? I think books for this age group are getting less "edgy" because a lot of modern attitudes towards parenting and children is veering towards over-protection and "helicopter" parenting. (Not everyone of course. But the prevalent attitude.)

The Secret Garden (F Hodgson Burnett): Mary's parents die in a cholera epidemic, all the household servants flee, terrified they'll get cholera. Mary's left in the house all alone, completely forgotten, until she's discovered by soldiers. Later in the book, there are hints that a boy who's an invalid, Colin, is not actually ill/disabled and never had been; his doctor's been trying to make him die so he can inherit the Mistlethwaite estate, so has kept him in a back brace and not allowed him to learn to walk or even play. (A lot of people read it as Colin being born with a disability, but having read the book about 100 times, he wasn't, he was born prematurely and his doctor put him in a back brace, severely restricted what he was allowed to do and made him afraid to go outdoors and no medical justification was given for this and the doctor would've inherited the estate if Mr Craven died without an heir.)

James and the Giant Peach (Roald Dahl): James's parents are killed by an escaped hippo then James (who is only 5 at the time) is sent to live with abusive aunts who make him sleep on the floor or even outside and spend his days chopping wood and doing other physical labour and not allowed to go to school or even meet other children. They verbally abuse him regularly and treat him like a slave.

What Katy Did (Susan Coolidge): MC breaks her back falling off a swing because she didn't listen when her aunt told her that the swing wasn't safe and needed to be fixed. She's bedridden for months and no-one knows if she will ever walk again.

The Little Princess (F Hodgson Burnett): the MC is a rich girl with a loving father who spoils her (but not enough to make her mean and unpleasant) and she goes to an expensive, exclusive school where she's treated like a princess. Then her dad dies and loses his fortune just before he dies, so all of a sudden she has all her belongings taken from her and she's forced to work in the school as the lowest of the low among household servants.

There's also I Am David by Anne Holm (although that might be classified as YA with a younger protagonist - according to Wikipedia he's 12 but when I read it I mentally pictured him as being a bit younger, but the tone and way it's written is more YA, and the depiction of the events and emotions is more subtle) about a boy who's lived in a Nazi concentration camp for as long as he can remember, who escapes and makes his way, alone, across Europe (facing all kinds of dangers and difficulties) trying to find a home and family he's doesn't remember. All he knows about his identity is that his first name's David.


Contemporary examples (because, you know, raiding your kids' bookshelves and that...):

Wonder (R. J. Palacio): my 11 yr old totally raves about this book but I've not read it myself yet. It's about a boy with a facial deformity and how he's (mis)treated by people around him. My daughter says it's guaranteed to make anyone cry.

The Boy in the Dress (David Walliams): the MC's mum died (before the book starts) and his dad and older brother's way of (not) coping is to ban anyone from talking about her. The MC is punished and humiliated by his dad for having a secret photo of his mum. He's into fashion and dresses but his dad tries to force him to conform to gender stereotypes.

The Illustrated Mum (Jacqueline Wilson): the MC's mum has bipolar disorder, which is not being treated and she doesn't realise she's becoming ill and therefore doesn't see a doctor. As her mum's mental health spirals out of control, the MC and her sister are left to try to look after themselves and keep the household running and pretend to the neighbours, school, etc that everything's normal, while they are being severely neglected and trying to understand their mother's increasingly erratic behaviour. Their mum ends up in a psychiatric hospital before she finally is able to get medical treatment.



IMO the main thing with this age group is that there is hope and a change of fortune for the characters that are in bad situations. I can't think of any books aimed at this age group that have a tragic ending. Even Roald Dahl's The Witches isn't a properly tragic ending, though many people may consider a child being permanently turned into a mouse and having the livespan that goes with it to be just that, because the MC himself sees it as a good thing because his lifespan and his grandmother's is going to be the same length so they can enjoy all their days together. David Walliam's Gangsta Granny has a sad ending (not going to say what it is but you can probably guess) but still ends on a positive, hopeful tone so isn't a tragic ending. I don't think writers should shy away from having really bad situations or terrible things happen, but the overall tone needs to be hopeful and bad things balanced out by good things, humour, overcoming adversity and a hopeful attitude. Most of the examples above, after the bad things happen, things get better and good or even magical things happen (like a strange old man gives you magic beans, which, horror upon horrors you lose because you trip over the roots of the old dead peach tree in the garden and all the magic beans escape, but then the tree suddenly grows a peach... which grows and grows and grows and grows...).

Also, the way tragic events are depicted is a lot more straight forward and doesn't dwell too much on the misery. It's viewed through a child's eyes, i.e. very matter of fact, the way children just accept the reality around them because they're not old enough to know any different. (Which can make it all the more poignant, especially if you read the book as an adult.)