I would like to get an opinion on word count. My upper middle grade fantasy novel is hovering around 85k after my first edit. After much research I've discovered that upper middle grade fantasy tends to top out at about 75k at the high end. Do you guys think I'm really shooting myself in the foot by submitting at 85k? Thanks in advance for the comments.
Upper Middle Grade Fantasy Word Count
- Thread starter mdott
- Start date
I'm pitching a YA historical fiction, which often can be longer, and it's only 74k words, which is right in the sweet spot. I think some agents will toss that aside because of the word count, but not all of them will. It might not be shooting yourself in the foot, but more stepping on a nail. It isn't going to make your climb any easier, but it's still possible to make it to the top.
I'm not an agent, just an unpublished writer, so add salt to taste.
I'm not an agent, just an unpublished writer, so add salt to taste.
85k for upper MG is a lot, even though it is fantasy. If you were more established then they'd probably be more willing to give it a shot. I'd highly suggest trying to cut it down to 65-70k.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2016
- Messages
- 63
- Reaction score
- 6
Some agents are more flexible than others when it comes to word count, but my understanding is that 85k is a bit high for middle grade fantasy. Mine are around 50k.
Although you might have success with your current word count, I think your odds would go up if you could cut at least 10k. It might make the book stronger, too.
Honestly, I don't think 10k words should be too difficult to cut. I'd start by cutting small things -- individuals words, phrases, or sentences. Then I'd look for scenes or chapters that could go. Good luck!
Although you might have success with your current word count, I think your odds would go up if you could cut at least 10k. It might make the book stronger, too.
Honestly, I don't think 10k words should be too difficult to cut. I'd start by cutting small things -- individuals words, phrases, or sentences. Then I'd look for scenes or chapters that could go. Good luck!
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2006
- Messages
- 8,745
- Reaction score
- 3,096
- Location
- Toronto, Canada
- Website
- www.adriennekress.com
I ended up publishing my first MG book at around 80K. So it is absolutely doable as a newbie. But I was lucky. And I was under even more of a microscope with the book being so long because then every single word HAD to be necessary. These days my MGs are around 60K which feels like the sweet spot. I would recommend highly seeing if you can trim it down another 10K. Don't delete full scenes or do a re-write, see if you can do it chopping paragraphs and sentences and words. You'd be surprised how much you can cut out that way (I had to do precisely that myself and it was so worth it).
Hi There! I've done a ton of research on this because I'm also writing an upper middle grade fantasy. My first draft was at 93k. Obviously too much. From what I can tell, hitting between 50k-60k is a definite safe bet. 60k-70k might be doable if you write something that's really great. I would be hesitant to go over 70k, though.
I look at query tracker's list of recent success stories (i.e. agent offered representation) (https://querytracker.net/success.php). You'll see that almost never are middle-grade books greater than 60k words. And while there is one recent manuscript over 70k, that's incredibly rare. Manuscripts at that length really aren't accepted at the rates that lesser word counts are.
I look at query tracker's list of recent success stories (i.e. agent offered representation) (https://querytracker.net/success.php). You'll see that almost never are middle-grade books greater than 60k words. And while there is one recent manuscript over 70k, that's incredibly rare. Manuscripts at that length really aren't accepted at the rates that lesser word counts are.
I tried looking up stats from Renaissance Learning and I can't find the word counts of books. I heard that School for Good and Evil was over 100K and as far as I know that was a debut author. Does anyone know where to find the word counts of already published books? Or at least how to navigate https://www.renaissance.com?
These are not my opinions. These are numbers given by Brandon Sanderson and Eric James Stone (both published writers). Eric did some guest lectures in Sanderson's online, free classes. Sanderson gave his numbers in the lectures.
Sanderson: MG (Up to 50K words); YA (up to 80K); Science Fiction (75K-100K).
Eric James Stone (guest lecturer, short fiction): Novels (40K and up); Novella (17,500 to 40K); Novelette (7,500 to 17,500); Short Story (7,500 and under); Flash Fiction (1K to 2K).
Sanderson: MG (Up to 50K words); YA (up to 80K); Science Fiction (75K-100K).
Eric James Stone (guest lecturer, short fiction): Novels (40K and up); Novella (17,500 to 40K); Novelette (7,500 to 17,500); Short Story (7,500 and under); Flash Fiction (1K to 2K).
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2012
- Messages
- 16,171
- Reaction score
- 3,734
Most wc for published works are going to be estimates based on page count, unless you're looking at classics or really well-known stuff that's been reprinted a ton. I believe some ebooks have the stat, but most don't.
What you're looking for at RenLearn — Go to the Resources drop-down menu and click Accelerated Reader BookFinder under Tools. Click whether you're a student, parent, teacher or librarian, submit, and the next screen will have a field to type in the book title you're searching for.
By the way, The School For Good and Evil is 105365 words!
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2006
- Messages
- 8,745
- Reaction score
- 3,096
- Location
- Toronto, Canada
- Website
- www.adriennekress.com
I've already given my MG wordcounts above, but if it's helpful here they are again:
ALEX: 87, 000
TIMOTHY: 80, 000
THE_EXPLORERS book 1: 60,000
Book 2: 65,000
Not sure if that's helpful or not.
I've also read somewhere that the first Harry Potter is around 75,000.
ALEX: 87, 000
TIMOTHY: 80, 000
THE_EXPLORERS book 1: 60,000
Book 2: 65,000
Not sure if that's helpful or not.
I've also read somewhere that the first Harry Potter is around 75,000.
Yeah I wonder if SFGAE is an exception to the rule and if so why? The author was debut, I believe so there was no reason to bet on him unless s publisher just loved the book so much that they didn't care how long it was. Although I guess what matters is that the book is only as long as it absolutely needs to be and the pace works. The Mysterious Benedict Society by Trenton Lee Stewart is 118K and it was his first MG book (he'd only published one book prior). So I'm hoping there's leeway there.
Thanks. I've been trying to fix and re-write this project and it looks like it'll probably be around 80-85K, maybe to sub. But word count is probably the least of my worries. Most important elements I worry about while writing MG is voice and pace. I've been looking through this forum for tips, but anyone who has any good resources definitely PM me
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2017
- Messages
- 95
- Reaction score
- 3
A great deal of debut MG novels have been over 100k. The School of Good and Evil, Nevermoor, and Keeper of the Lost Cities to name a few. I think it's becoming more acceptable. The 35 to 60k word count tends to be for the younger end of the spectrum. Since yours is upper MG, somewhere between 75-85k would be all right I think.