'The A stands for Ally'

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Albedo

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Equinox Gym Released A Video For Pride And People Are Not Happy With It

So a gym made a video celebrating the LGBTQIA alphabet for pride month, which is great. Except they created a spectrum that manages to include straight people at several points (ally, 'heteroflexible', kink and S&M, not to mention 'exhibitionist'), while ignoring asexual/aromantic/agender existence at all.

I know I shouldn't expect too much from corporate inclusivity-as-advertising, but one has to wonder if the widespread idea that the A stands for 'ally' (to the exclusion of the non-straight identities it also represents) isn't denying us representation just so straight friends and allies can feel part of the team.

I've lost count of the times I've had to gently remind people that asexuals exist, even on this amazingly inclusive forum. Are we too happy to stay invisible? Should we be demanding more recognition in general? When you see things like the canon asexuality of a character being erased in its television adaptation (Riverdale), or a show's creator declaring that an obviously asexual character can't actually be asexual because that would be boring (Sherlock), when I hear over and over that a character needs a love life to be realistic or relatable (thanks for the implication that my own life is poorly written), I wonder if it's time to get a bit rude about it, TBH.

How can allies be made to feel included, without risking pushing out some of the more marginal sexual identities? Is it enough to be valued as an ally without being considered part of the LGBT+ community or having a place within it? Do we just need several A's to make sure everyone's covered?
 

mccardey

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How can allies be made to feel included, without risking pushing out some of the more marginal sexual identities? Is it enough to be valued as an ally without being considered part of the LGBT+ community or having a place within it? Do we just need several A's to make sure everyone's covered?
My feeling? Allies are allies, and choose to be allies. No letter required.
 
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amergina

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You know, I happen to be kinky...

...but I don't want *all* kinky people to be included under the same umbrella as queer people because I don't want straight cis allo people to be included as queer.

Straight cis allo people take over when they're in queer spaces and make it all about them, and you know, so much of life is already about them.

(allo is the opposite of a, so allo are people who aren't ace/aro/a )
 

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You know, I happen to be kinky...

...but I don't want *all* kinky people to be included under the same umbrella as queer people because I don't want straight cis allo people to be included as queer.

Straight cis allo people take over when they're in queer spaces and make it all about them, and you know, so much of life is already about them.

(allo is the opposite of a, so allo are people who aren't ace/aro/a )

Yes, this. Having an inclusive letter as an ally feels like an usurpation to me and I soundly reject it. It's not about me; I'm proud to be an ally, but an ally is what I am. That's it.

Also, that stinkin' video seems to have gotten so much wrong, it needs to be trashed and buried . . . never to be resurrected.
 

kuwisdelu

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Count me in the "A is not for 'ally'" camp. If you need a pat on the back and honorary membership for being an ally, you're not really an ally, are you?
 

Jade Rothwell

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this isn't about anyone here. you're all great

in my experience a lot of people who call themselves allies aren't. they use it as a shield against criticism, rather than as a sign of an effort to help marginalized people. usually the people asking for it to be included in an acronym are in that category
 

Albedo

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My feeling? Allies are allies, and choose to be allies. No letter required.
This is my personal feeling. I spent most my adult life considering myself an ally (because I wasn't attracted to men I was obviously heterosexual, it being the default state and everything, despite never having had a moment of sexual feeling for anyone else either ... thanks internalised a-blindness!), but I never thought I should be entitled to a seat at the table. Being an ally should be the bare minimum expectation. They don't award medals for being a decent human being.

At the same time, though ... the more people who consider themselves allies, the better. I've also heard it put forward that identification as an 'ally' is a safe option for those who can't be out for whatever reason to still show support for the community, so there's that. If Q can stand for questioning, maybe A is needed to include those who are uncomfortable being more than that at present?

You know, I happen to be kinky...

...but I don't want *all* kinky people to be included under the same umbrella as queer people because I don't want straight cis allo people to be included as queer.

Straight cis allo people take over when they're in queer spaces and make it all about them, and you know, so much of life is already about them.

(allo is the opposite of a, so allo are people who aren't ace/aro/a )
It's funny, but I'm not comfortable referring to myself as queer. I feel as a reclaimed slur that it's up to the people who endured it to decide whether they want to use it or not, but I doubt many ace-spectrum people were ever called queer for being ace alone. (Also, I've got older LGBT rellies who really, really hate that word.)

Kink inclusivity seems to be a fairly new thing. I'm not sure how I feel about it. It's cool to be proud of it and I'm all for kinksters who want to let the flag fly, but a kink isn't really a gender or sexual orientation, is it? There are straight, gay, even ace kinksters, but there are straight, gay and ace model plane enthusiasts as well. I'd worry if the idea of pride got too diluted with hobbies.
 

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At the same time, though ... the more people who consider themselves allies, the better. I've also heard it put forward that identification as an 'ally' is a safe option for those who can't be out for whatever reason to still show support for the community, so there's that. If Q can stand for questioning, maybe A is needed to include those who are uncomfortable being more than that at present.

The A does indeed stand for "allies" or closeted people who don't want to out themselves, but still want to participate in local clubs and support groups.

The idea of ace inclusion came from the creator of AVEN, who also thinks that kinksters should be under the LGBT umbrella. But the thing is, asexual people aren't inherently LGBT. That A does not stand for asexuality because it isn't an orientation or gender. It's a modifier to your orientation (or lack thereof, in the case of aros). And it's a great one! It saves a lot of people confusion and grief. But it's not LGBT in and of itself.

Sexuality and gender is so complicated, and very much based on the individual. If we tried to make sure everyone fit in, we'd need the entire alphabet, and not all those people belong in the community. And the LGBT community isn't an exclusive club that we need to open up to more people, even though it seems like everyone is wanting to find their ticket in.
 
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mccardey

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The A does indeed stand for "allies" or closeted people who don't want to out themselves, but still want to participate in local clubs and support groups.
Is there a static and formal delineation? (Genuine question - someone was asking about that in the Binders fb forum and no-one was quite sure.)
 

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The A does indeed stand for "allies" or closeted people who don't want to out themselves, but still want to participate in local clubs and support groups.

<snip>

But the thing is, asexual people aren't inherently LGBT. That A does not stand for asexuality because it isn't an orientation or gender. It's a modifier to your orientation (or lack thereof, in the case of aros). And it's a great one! It saves a lot of people confusion and grief. But it's not LGBT in and of itself.

So, in your view, ace people aren't "inherently LGBT" worthy of inclusion under the LGBT umbrella, but allies are? Colour me confused.

eta: Out of curiosity, would you consider zero a number? Or is it different from the other numbers under the numerical umbrella because it's technically "nothing"?
 
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miss marisa

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Is there a static and formal delineation? (Genuine question - someone was asking about that in the Binders fb forum and no-one was quite sure.)


Not necessarily. Because then it wouldn't serve its purpose. If someone is closeted and calls themselves an ally, there's no way to tell whether they're a straight ally or not.

So, in your view, ace people aren't "inherently LGBT" worthy of inclusion under the LGBT umbrella, but allies are? Colour me confused.

eta: Out of curiosity, would you consider zero a number? Or is it different from the other numbers under the numerical umbrella because it's technically "nothing"?

I, personally, don't like the "A" in the acronym. I prefer using LGBT. So no, I don't believe allies should be included.

If I think that 0 is a number, then I should consider asexual people LGBT is what I think you're getting at. But numbers aren't human sexuality, and one doesn't have to do with the other.
 

mccardey

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Not necessarily. Because then it wouldn't serve its purpose. If someone is closeted and calls themselves an ally, there's no way to tell whether they're a straight ally or not.

So - to be clear - you're just giving it as your opinion that the A stands for Ally? Because I don't think it does down here.
 
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Roxxsmom

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The idea of ace inclusion came from the creator of AVEN, who also thinks that kinksters should be under the LGBT umbrella. But the thing is, asexual people aren't inherently LGBT. That A does not stand for asexuality because it isn't an orientation or gender. It's a modifier to your orientation (or lack thereof, in the case of aros).

Can't aromantic people also be sexual, and not just form romantic attachments to the people (of any gender) they are attracted to?

I don't think of it as a lack, though, even when someone is both aromantic and asexual. It's an orientation that will affect how someone will want to live their life, and hiding or denying it will likely result in stress and unhappiness. And in a society where the pursuit of sex and romantic bonds drive much of what many regard as "daily life," not to mention the way our pop culture and economy are structured, asexuality and aromance can indeed lead to pressure to conform, ridicule, economic discrimination, and hardship, even if there isn't the same kind of active persecution as what LGBTQ people often experience. And being told one doesn't exist at all (I've run into people who refuse to believe that this really is a thing), or that one is suffering from a psychological or physical problem, can't be fun either.

I've thought that the "a" stands for asexual and aromantic, with ally, if it's included, as sort of a secondary thing or afterthought.

I don't think those of us who are allies should claim the same space or status within the community. It's too easy for those of more privilege or power in society to forget that we don't need to be celebrated for being allies to those with less.
 
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miss marisa

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So - to be clear - you're just giving it as your opinion that the A stands for Ally? Because I don't think it does down here.

Well, the added letters to the LGBT acronym really are just opinion. It's a lot of people's opinion that it stands for asexuality. It's other people's opinion that it stands for ally.
 

neandermagnon

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I agree that straight allies should never be made to feel that they're not a part of social circles (which isn't the same thing at all*), but I don't see why they need to be specifically included in an acronym that is there to represent people whose sexuality isn't of the mainstream variety.

*It's like "you can't be my friend because you're not ..." - which rarely happens anyway, but I think it's what some straight people might be afraid of

I'd be inclined to think it's an honest mistake. Like someone didn't know what all the letters stood for, asked around, got supplied wrong information and then rolled with it. I don't believe that anyone sat down in a meeting and said "listen, I propose that we change the meaning of A from asexual to ally". Far more likely it was "wtf does the a stand for?" "hell if I know and I'm gay." More reason why pointers on how to be a good ally are needed. But I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt if they mean well. Maybe write to them and explain what asexual means.
 
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mccardey

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I'd be inclined to think it's an honest mistake. Like someone didn't know what all the letters stood for, asked around, got supplied wrong information and then rolled with it.
This is what I think. Though it does underline Alby's point about the erasure of people whose identities are asexual. And perhaps aromantic as well? I'm not sure about that. Will ask around.
 

mccardey

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I, personally, don't like the "A" in the acronym. I prefer using LGBT. So no, I don't believe allies should be included.
Ah. Thanks. I thought you were quoting an actual definition or something. Obviously your preferences are whatever they are, but I think the language moved on from the simple LGBT some time ago. I wouldn't bet on it's going backwards any time soon.
 
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neandermagnon

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This is what I think. Though it does underline Alby's point about the erasure of people whose identities are asexual. And perhaps aromantic as well? I'm not sure about that. Will ask around.

I agree that it comes from erasure... the fact that whoever made the video being unaware of the existence of asexuality is because of erasure. It's kind of a vicious circle. Erasure means people don't realise something exists. And because they don't realise it exists, it doesn't get mentioned, so the erasure continues. Which is why I think it is very important to make a point about stuff like this.

I'm bisexual so I know all about erasure. So many people either forget or disregard or don't even believe in the existence of bisexuality. A lot of the time it's completely accidental. Actual biphobia is quite rare in my experience. Mostly people just get confused and/or make inaccurate and unfair assumptions like "you were with a woman before and now you're with a man. Are you saying that being gay really is a choice and the homophobic Christians are right?" or "you were with a man before and now you're with a woman. Oh, so your previous relationship went wrong because you're gay and were in denial." Erasure and people just not having your particular orientation on their radar causes a crap load of problems but it's different from "I hate/condemn you because of your orientation". Though homophobes can do bi erasure as well, for example "there's no such thing as bi. If someone has any feelings towards they're own gender they're gay and nothing else and they're going to burn in hell". That's more of a malicious denial than an accidental one.

I'm sure asexual and aromantic people can give plenty of examples of problems caused by erasure.

So yeah it definitely is erasure and the way to fight erasure is attempting to educate people. Most people aren't arseholes and will listen, though it may take a while before the message gets through.
 
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Albedo

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The A does indeed stand for "allies" or closeted people who don't want to out themselves, but still want to participate in local clubs and support groups.

The idea of ace inclusion came from the creator of AVEN, who also thinks that kinksters should be under the LGBT umbrella. But the thing is, asexual people aren't inherently LGBT. That A does not stand for asexuality because it isn't an orientation or gender. It's a modifier to your orientation (or lack thereof, in the case of aros). And it's a great one! It saves a lot of people confusion and grief. But it's not LGBT in and of itself.
I find the bolded a bit troubling. Not that I disagree that A isn't inherently part of LGBT (if you take that to ONLY include lesbian/gay/trans/bi people), but why wouldn't it be part of LGBT+, the plus indicating an expanded group that includes other marginalised identities not necessarily fitting under the LGBT umbrella? It's not like there aren't asexual-identifying people within the traditional LGBT categories anyway.

But to say that asexuality is only a modifier of other orientations and not a thing into itself ... that's not correct for everyone. And uncomfortably similar to some of the ways people have said asexuality doesn't really exist: it's not a valid orientation, you're just a straight/gay/bisexual person who has suppressed their true identity.

Sexuality and gender is so complicated, and very much based on the individual. If we tried to make sure everyone fit in, we'd need the entire alphabet, and not all those people belong in the community. And the LGBT community isn't an exclusive club that we need to open up to more people, even though it seems like everyone is wanting to find their ticket in.
I agree, it IS complicated. Perhaps all labels are inadequate, but they do serve their purposes. And the benefit of an inclusive LGBT+ paradigm is that it recognizes that non-straight, non-cisgender identities and experiences have a lot in common, distinct from the majority. Straight allies aren't marginalized, but those who are intersex, non-binary, asexual/aromantic, or have another sort of non-straight experience are.
 

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This is why I'd love to get rid of the acronym and just have an actual word. I hate arguments over the letters and various people trying to reorder them and blah blah blah seriously that's not what we should be fighting about, people.

Asexuals and for that matter demisexuals need to be included and have their existence and struggles included. I've seen 'allies' spend time badgering an asexual friend of mine about the fact he doesn't want to get into anyone's pants, to the point where he often leaves gatherings because of how uncomfortable they are making him. He gets tired of having to justify the fact he has a romantic relationship in which sex is not involved, as though sexual attraction were an absolutely vital component in a loving relationship.
 

Jade Rothwell

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This is why I'd love to get rid of the acronym and just have an actual word. I hate arguments over the letters and various people trying to reorder them and blah blah blah seriously that's not what we should be fighting about, people.

Asexuals and for that matter demisexuals need to be included and have their existence and struggles included. I've seen 'allies' spend time badgering an asexual friend of mine about the fact he doesn't want to get into anyone's pants, to the point where he often leaves gatherings because of how uncomfortable they are making him. He gets tired of having to justify the fact he has a romantic relationship in which sex is not involved, as though sexual attraction were an absolutely vital component in a loving relationship.

I wholeheartedly agree. I've seen amazing people get torn down because someone within the community doesn't like their identity. the goal post is always moving on who is and isn't acceptable, even within the community itself. I use 'queer' as an umbrella term, as I had an early introduction to queer theory. I know it's a contentious term, and get that some people don't use it for themselves. but there is never going to be one term that encapsulates us all. maybe we'll always have 50 different names for our collective.
 

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:gaah

It's not about straight people! Geez!

I am losing all patience with privileged groups who respond to pleas for recognition and diversity by insisting that to be honest diversity must include them and then making damned sure they are still front and center.

A true ally supports without demanding the spotlight.
 

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Equinox Gym Released A Video For Pride And People Are Not Happy With It

So a gym made a video celebrating the LGBTQIA alphabet for pride month, which is great. Except they created a spectrum that manages to include straight people at several points (ally, 'heteroflexible', kink and S&M, not to mention 'exhibitionist'), while ignoring asexual/aromantic/agender existence at all.

This was probably well-intentioned, but clumsy at best, as well as stupid.

There's a reason this subforum is called QUILTBAG, and not LGBT. Per the FAQ:

QUILTBAG=QUeer/QUestioning, Intersexed, Lesbian, Transgendered/Transsexual, Bisexual, Asexual/Allied, Gay (With no hierarchy implied by the order - it just arranges into a convenient acronym with a helpful mnemonic.)

* You can be asexual and identify as not straight.
* Being LGBT is not just about who you have sex with; it's also about love, and who you love.
* Allies are often people who for a number of reasons (like criminal statutes in their region) can't identify as LGBT.

Just as a reminder—since I notice we have new members— this is from the Sticky: Skip Reading This Sticky At Your Own Peril

Everyone is welcome in this room. Even if you're straight as can be, you're welcome in this room

Everyone is welcome to post, discuss, question, and even debate, in this room.

At least initially.
 
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Myrealana

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I always assumed the A stood for asexual.

As an ally, I don't need to be identified as part of a group. That's kind of the point of being an ally, isn't it?

I mean, I don't expect to see #BlackandAlliedLivesMatter T-shirts.
 
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