Something to Say, and Writing True

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buz

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Yeah, so a guy loses his job, the bills are piling up, he's getting dressed and leaving the house at the same usual time every morning, heading out of the house to work, everyone believes. But instead he's out looking for a job. But he gets no offers, jsut a come'on from the.. sorry, he gets no offers. His priority is to find a job before he loses his house and his world falls apart, taking his loved ones down in the meantime. What kinds of thoughts are going through this guy's head? Why does he want to save his family? Maybe his father was irresponsible and the MC grew up in an unstable way, maybe he and his mother and siblings ended up in a shelter. Maybe he has deep psychological motivations that are tied to his feeling of self-worth and buried in his subconscious is an imperative, maybe ill-founded, that he be better than his father. Maybe his self worth is tied into being better than his father. Yeah, there are these inner motivations, but first he needs to save his family. I think you can do both, no?

Yes, of course. I never meant to say otherwise. :)

But a guy looking for a job to save his family isn't a story. Not until something changes. Is it?

But still, you're showing not telling. So we get it in his actions, in his dialogue, in his monologue,I'm honestly having trouble seeing what the confusion is. It's possible that it could just be eluding me, so I'll bow out, but I'm sure someone a lot smarter than I am will be able to help a lot more. I wish you the best.

I don't think it's a question of smartness. I think we are probably talking about different things and I'm not expressing myself well at all. Possibly because I'm confused myself. I definitely don't have an answer to anything. :D
 
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Maze Runner

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yeah, I'm constantly confused. I'd put more money on you than me.
 

buz

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yeah, I'm constantly confused. I'd put more money on you than me.

Nah...all my brain is good for is running me in circles. Put your money on you. :)

Possibly this question is too vague and too broad, really. But I do really appreciate everyone's thoughtful responses; it made me see there's far from one perspective here. :)
 

Ari Meermans

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But a guy looking for a job to save his family isn't a story. Not until something changes. Is it?

Or, yanno, until something happens. See, there was this guy and let's call him Arthur . . . yeah, Arthur's a good name. It fits. Now Arthur wasn't what you'd call a deep thinker. He was a little thick, a little bleary. Basically, bleary about pretty much everything going on around him and nothing ever made much of a dent. One morning after a fun night at the local pub, Arthur woke blearier than usual. Now a good part of that bleariness had to do with the thorough gullet washing he indulged in the night before, but as I said Arthur tended to bleary to begin with. So on this particular morning it slowly began to dawn on him that the local city government seemed pretty keen on bulldozing his little house. The house wasn't all that special in the usual scheme of things, but it meant a lot to Arthur. The rest of the story is, of course, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Nah...all my brain is good for is running me in circles.

Chase those circles. Grab one and stretch that sucker alll out of shape, buz.
 
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Jason

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Ah, but why was it crap? I mean, that nugget itself isn't crap by its own virtue :D

Because it wasn't thought out, nuggets rarely are crappy, it's how they're polished that's crap! LOL :)

...Yeah, I mean, I follow :D I think the essentialness of failure is always a sound point. Where I fall down, I suppose, is I'm bored and tired of the same old grind, maybe. But, yanno, that's a different issue than what I started with here :)

Welcome to the club...

...I suppose what I'm more concerned about is--not necessarily having an Important topic/theme to jump from, but having something on which to base the transformative pieces of a story. Does that make sense? Like, in the construction of a story, there's some change; the change always says something, I think. (Or does it? This could be disputed :) ) So I might, in deciding what this change is, start thinking about what I'm saying with it, and I might have trouble constructing the story without it.

But who decides what's important or meaningful? The answer, I think, is the reader. You should just tell the stories in your heart. Take them, put them into words on proverbial paper, then let the agent, editor, and ultimately, the reader decide.

...Am...am I the only one moved by songs? Songs not written for me or about me but could have been anyway? Or maybe couldn't have been, but the *feel* of the song still resonates? ..I mean, with songs, you don't have to necessarily identify with the spoken lyrics, though it may help--but the emotion and feeling of the song is just as impactful, I think.

But that's another beast...:D

Hardly, many are moved by music, the melody and the lyrics (and the harmony for that matter)...

Whenever anyone says they don't have anything meaningful to say or bemoans their own lack of originality (whatever that is), I'm reminded of this quote:

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But, since no one was listening, everything must be said again." ~ Andre Gide, French author and winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature.

Well said... :)

yeah, I'm constantly confused. I'd put more money on you than me.

Nah...all my brain is good for is running me in circles. Put your money on you. :)

Why is it that creatives are always so self-deprecating? Do we really have such a lower self-worth mentality collectively? I'm all for supporting others, but don't do so at your own expense you two! Now go write as you're both quite proficient, as evidenced from what we've all read here! :)

Or, yanno, until something happens. See, there was this guy and let's call him Arthur . . . yeah, Arthur's a good name. It fits. Now Arthur wasn't what you'd call a deep thinker. He was a little thick, a little bleary. Basically, bleary about pretty much everything going on around him and nothing ever made much of a dent. One morning after a fun night at the local pub, Arthur woke blearier than usual. Now a good part of that bleariness had to do with the thorough gullet washing he indulged in the night before, but as I said Arthur tended to bleary to begin with. So on this particular morning it slowly began to dawn on him that the local city government seemed pretty keen on bulldozing his little house. The house wasn't all that special in the usual scheme of things, but it meant a lot to Arthur...

Now where have I read something like that before?!?! :) (Redacted your answer of course for the sake of humor...)

Chase those circles. Grab one and stretch that sucker alll out of shape, buz.

Chasing circles...reminds me of my dog!
 

Maze Runner

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Why is it that creatives are always so self-deprecating?

I don't think I've ever met or known of a creative who didn't have doubts. I think it's because what we're trying to do is elusive. And also because we know we'll never master it. Some things are more finite, but it seems like the most worthwhile aren't. ETA: And I don't mean it's just the arts that are worthwhile or elusive. I think it's whatever keeps us coming back for more.
 
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buz

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Why is it that creatives are always so self-deprecating?

I would tell you I'm not creative, but I can guess how well that might go over... :p
 
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Jason

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That's it buzhidao, it's time to whack you thrice with a cooked spaghetti noodle. RYFW includes yourself! :wag:
 

JCornelius

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Are art and craft truly separable in this manner? I don't think so. To state this is to imply that art is or can be inborn at its highest attainable level and thus would require no further acquisition of skill nor need for refinement (craft).
Very good question, or rather questions a) and b).
a) In order to navigate existence humans make use of conceptual categories which are always artificial, but which allow some semblance of orientation, even though the more one zooms in, the more these categories turn out to overlap and stand on nothing. So for the purposes of having a discussion, yes--art and craft can be counted as separate. You will indeed find on one side of the spectrum someone who dedicates his life to writing one major book (or cycle of books) and sacrifices everything for it*, and on the other--someone who cheerfully bangs out every fortnight a formulaic adventure of Chief Detective Bastable**.
b) I think that when the "talented genius"(TG) and the "able craftsman"(AC) both enter the field at the beginning of their careers, TG is very likely to achieve incredible things through sheer force and determination and weirdness of approach, while AC achieves what he achieves through focused and sustained study and application of technique. Later, once TG's raw momentum inevitably starts running out, TG is faced with a choice--withdraw from this vale of tears in one form or another--or learn to rely on technique as well***.
Although it's contemporary pop culture, with it's high tolerance for un-impeccable technique, that allows such splendid variations. Back in the Game of Throne times any artists had to have a technique infinitely better than that of any craftsman, in order to be allowed to paint the cathedral or compose and perform a sonnet for the emperor's niece...



Literary is a marketing category, not a genre—nor is it separable from genre. All genres contain literary works. Neither are social commentary and social satire genres. See Do you know the differences between the marketing categories of fiction?
Well that's...sure, I mean, of course, but I am reminded of conversations about say the USSR, where someone would suddenly say: "You realize you can't possibly be right, because you keep calling these people communists, and yet everyone knows real communism is something completely different and cannot possibly be applied to what the Soviets did!"
During my participation up to now in conversations in AW about literature this generic, albeit wooden, division of writing into two pseudo-categories has worked pretty well; those who I have talked with did not at any point think I meant Zadie Smith with "genre fiction" or Mickey Spillane with "literary fiction", but it's obviously time to take more care of what terms I use, and I shall try to do so:).

AW is a forum where on one hand existing knowledge is shared, and on the other, new ideas are discussed. In the sense of "shared knowledge", using as correctly as possible accepted categories and terms is rather a must. In the sense of "new ideas", sometimes we get sloppy. I get sloppy. Excited and sloppy.

___
* The more pragmatic species of the artist knows they need half a decade or a full decade to recharge between books and do not try to overtax their resources.
** We live in very touchy times so it wouldn't hurt to now mention something like "no I'm not implying that X is inherently better than Y".
***With the important caveat that the craftsman mainly uses pre-existing technique which he learned, and with the years adds a few twists of his own, while the artist who shifts from raw power to technique-based existence, has a much larger percentage of technique which he himself developed/invented in his wilder years, and can now polish and let it do more and more of the work. And with some luck, what he developed will be later simplified, codified, and adopted by the next generation of craftsmen and so on the circle of life, lion puppy on a cliff, etc.
 
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JCornelius

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/.../ But, if I understand correctly, you are trying to say that the question of "having something to say" or "writing true statements" is one way of approaching this art/craft but does not need to take place...depends on what you're writing? Yes?

Something like that, yes:) In a sense of gradation. For some "having something to say" may be to share accumulated wisdom on the human condition through intricate behavior nuances and intersecting webs of plot arcs and the occasional narrative intrusion, while for others it could all boil down to using a fairy tale about talking snails to show that bullying is bad or that believing in yourself is good. Both approaches mean "having something to say".

And "writing true statements" is much more difficult, for me, to analyze, but for me this means the stylistic form of having something to say. For example two writers describe Jim returning home from work and entering the kitchen. One describes it competently, maybe even with a few stylistic bursts to show the reader is in capable hands, while the other writer, when you read his description of Jim entering the kitchen, you realize this is the real thing, that this book is going to show you the human condition and existential issues in a way that will leave you stunned and breathless. Using the perhaps unfortunate, yet to me necessary, distinction of "craft vs art", the high-impact version of Jim entering the kitchen will have been written by the artist, while the entertaining but low-impact version*--by the craftsman.

The craftsman will be using mainly ready made templates of behavior, characterization, description, and technique as a whole, while the artist will be straining to invent everything or almost everything from the ground up for the purposes of this book and this book alone. Which is why reading the craftsman description of Jim entering the kitchen will bring mild pleasure, while reading the artist description of Jim entering the kitchen will bring a "hold on to your hat shit is getting real" reaction.

Not unlike in some reviews you can read people explaining how, after a lifetime of Pattersons and Browns** they read the opening sequence of Anna Karenina, prince Stiva waking up on the sofa, and by the second page they suddenly understand, "so this is what the real thing is..."

___
*Disclosure--90% of the time my constitution can only take the low-impact type of writing, I get too worked up by the high-impact kind.
**The example is more about discovering different types of writing, not about how X is inherently better or worse than Y.
 
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JCornelius

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/.../Now Arthur wasn't what you'd call a deep thinker. He was a little thick, a little bleary. Basically, bleary about pretty much everything going on around him and nothing ever made much of a dent. /.../

And Ford may have been many things, but he was no prefect. :Thumbs:
 
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Ari Meermans

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Very good question, or rather questions a) and b).
a) In order to navigate existence humans make use of conceptual categories which are always artificial, but which allow some semblance of orientation, even though the more one zooms in, the more these categories turn out to overlap and stand on nothing. So for the purposes of having a discussion, yes--art and craft can be counted as separate. You will indeed find on one side of the spectrum someone who dedicates his life to writing one major book (or cycle of books) and sacrifices everything for it*, and on the other--someone who cheerfully bangs out every fortnight a formulaic adventure of Chief Detective Bastable**.
b) I think that when the "talented genius"(TG) and the "able craftsman"(AC) both enter the field at the beginning of their careers, TG is very likely to achieve incredible things through sheer force and determination and weirdness of approach, while AC achieves what he achieves through focused and sustained study and application of technique. Later, once TG's raw momentum inevitably starts running out, TG is faced with a choice--withdraw from this vale of tears in one form or another--or learn to rely on technique as well***.
Although it's contemporary pop culture, with it's high tolerance for un-impeccable technique, that allows such splendid variations. Back in the Game of Throne times any artists had to have a technique infinitely better than that of any craftsman, in order to be allowed to paint the cathedral or compose and perform a sonnet for the emperor's niece...




Well that's...sure, I mean, of course, but I am reminded of conversations about say the USSR, where someone would suddenly say: "You realize you can't possibly be right, because you keep calling these people communists, and yet everyone knows real communism is something completely different and cannot possibly be applied to what the Soviets did!"
During my participation up to now in conversations in AW about literature this generic, albeit wooden, division of writing into two pseudo-categories has worked pretty well; those who I have talked with did not at any point think I meant Zadie Smith with "genre fiction" or Mickey Spillane with "literary fiction", but it's obviously time to take more care of what terms I use, and I shall try to do so:).

AW is a forum where on one hand existing knowledge is shared, and on the other, new ideas are discussed. In the sense of "shared knowledge", using as correctly as possible accepted categories and terms is rather a must. In the sense of "new ideas", sometimes we get sloppy. I get sloppy. Excited and sloppy.

___
* The more pragmatic species of the artist knows they need half a decade or a full decade to recharge between books and do not try to overtax their resources.
** We live in very touchy times so it wouldn't hurt to now mention something like "no I'm not implying that X is inherently better than Y".
***With the important caveat that the craftsman mainly uses pre-existing technique which he learned, and with the years adds a few twists of his own, while the artist who shifts from raw power to technique-based existence, has a much larger percentage of technique which he himself developed/invented in his wilder years, and can now polish and let it do more and more of the work. And with some luck, what he developed will be later simplified, codified, and adopted by the next generation of craftsmen and so on the circle of life, lion puppy on a cliff, etc.

Mercy, but you use a lot of words. And, of course, you shifted the goalposts. You first wrote:

Firstly, we have art, on one hand, and craft, on the other. A few are artists, who throw everything they have into their art and then, not infrequently, drop dead depleted or go mad, etc., and on the other side are the craftsmen, who make sure they maintain a reasonably good level, but do not sacrifice health and sanity and love, etc. for the sake of their product*.

Now, you're talking talented geniuses and able craftsmen. While I have always taken exception to the word "genius," I maintain (as someone who knows) that no matter how much raw talent someone possesses, the failure to perfect craft—whether through hubris or sheer laziness or for whatever the reason—makes that talent worth far less than it otherwise would have been. Facility with language may come much more easily to some than to others, but it's still a learned thing which must be constantly and consistently honed. Otherwise, one can use alll the words and still say not much.

With regard to the forum: Posts on AW reach a wide audience, and we must employ terminology as precisely as possible in order to communicate effectively with all the members of our audience. It can be easy to forget we're not just chatting among ourselves. We must take all the members of our audience into consideration. And even among ourselves, we don't always know to whom we're addressing our comments. To that end, I'ma leave you with something that will likely make our resident Medievalist spew her morning coffee: 'A swyne to teach Minerua, was a prouerbe, for which we sai: Englyshe to teach our dame to spyne.'
 

JCornelius

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To the first thing, about craft crafting: totally. Innate talent plus craft equals books which cast their shadows for generations.
To the second thing, about the audience: totally. This is something I've realized a while ago, but still only remember from time to time...
 

Ari Meermans

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With apologies to buzhidao, I'm closing this thread. We've wandered too far afield to be of any further use, I think. Buz, if you disagree, rep or PM me and I'll reopen.
 
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