Free Will, especially as it applies to writing

veinglory

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However other people feel they are subjectively experiencing free will all the time and denial of it is absurd. Kind of like the god vs atheism debate. What seems overwhelmingly likely to a person varies by culture and temperament.
 

King Neptune

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However other people feel they are subjectively experiencing free will all the time and denial of it is absurd. Kind of like the god vs atheism debate. What seems overwhelmingly likely to a person varies by culture and temperament.

I understand. The illusion that we are free operators is important to many people, but if one believes the logic of cause and effect, then it is easy to see how human activities were caused by events that happened before the individual was doing anything. Some people argue whether nature or nurture is more important in developing character, but genetics precede both, and human genes had their origins a very long time ago.

What may seem to vary from person to person may actually be hidden behind the subconscious mind. Just as we have the illusion of self-determination, we have the delusion that the conscious mind commands, when recent research in the brain has found that decisions are often made in the unconscious mind before the conscious mind even considers the matter.
Just a few of the many articles in regard to that.
https://www.relationshipscoach.co.u...subconscious-mind-makes-our-decisions-for-us/
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/03/25/yet-another-experiment-eroding-free-will/
http://cognitivephilosophy.net/consciousness/free-will-is-not-what-you-think-it-is/
 

veinglory

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It is always easy to see one is right and all others are wrong. But even as a determinist myself what actually, objectively exists is just two points of view not amenable to scientific testing.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Also cause and effect are not inherently logical. Modern logic employs the idea of possible worlds. It is possible to have a world with free will, or a world with determinism, or a world of posssiblities or a world operating on an infinite number of other possible axiom systems.

But only a small set of possible worlds can fit the facts observed in our real world. Those facts require some degree of accuracy for relativity and quantum mechanics. Those facts remove all l worlds with single objective onservers and all deterministic worlds from consideratoin as possibly being the real world.
 

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... recent research in the brain has found that decisions are often made in the unconscious mind before the conscious mind even considers the matter. ...

But isn't all that research based on some fairly subjective and deeply uncertain definitions of what exactly constitutes the parts and processes of human brains which make up the "conscious" and "unconscious" mind?

Neuroscience seems to me still too young and nebulous and ill-defined a field for anyone to have real confidence that it has pinpointed such things with absolute certainty, or even that such Victorian-based ideas of the workings of the mind are entirely valid.
 

King Neptune

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Nor is it necessary that free will be conscious and rational.

Yes, and this may be more important. Either free will or determinism is going on in the background, and he indivcidual's awareness of it is inconsequential.

My opinion on the matter is a little more complicated than I stated, but I don't think that free will and determinism completely covers the matter.
 

King Neptune

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But isn't all that research based on some fairly subjective and deeply uncertain definitions of what exactly constitutes the parts and processes of human brains which make up the "conscious" and "unconscious" mind?

Neuroscience seems to me still too young and nebulous and ill-defined a field for anyone to have real confidence that it has pinpointed such things with absolute certainty, or even that such Victorian-based ideas of the workings of the mind are entirely valid.

It is uncertain, but neurosciencei is more developed than it may seem at first glance. One thing that can be done is watching nerurons fire, and hat tells a lot about what is going on, also when it is going on.
 

veinglory

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Also cause and effect are not inherently logical. Modern logic employs the idea of possible worlds. It is possible to have a world with free will, or a world with determinism, or a world of posssiblities or a world operating on an infinite number of other possible axiom systems.

But only a small set of possible worlds can fit the facts observed in our real world. Those facts require some degree of accuracy for relativity and quantum mechanics. Those facts remove all l worlds with single objective onservers and all deterministic worlds from consideratoin as possibly being the real world.

And to bring this back to writing, my latest super-hero novella involves a scientist who discovers proof of multiverse theory. Coming to the conclusion that every choice happens, and so even the most heroic action just determines which world you happen to be in and doesn't really save anyone, he has become rather depressed. No quite sure how to write myself out of that one....
 

Jason

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My head hurts...but still reading
 

RichardGarfinkle

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And to bring this back to writing, my latest super-hero novella involves a scientist who discovers proof of multiverse theory. Coming to the conclusion that every choice happens, and so even the most heroic action just determines which world you happen to be in and doesn't really save anyone, he has become rather depressed. No quite sure how to write myself out of that one....


Have you read Larry Niven's short story All the Myriad Ways?
He explores aspects of this.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Along with the question of whether or not Free Will or Determinism are meaningful concepts in this universe, I'd argue that the question creates a distraction from how human minds work.

That distraction is the concept of choice.

If one examines what minds do and how thoughts form and are used, I think it's pretty clear that very rarely is a human confronted with what we think of as a choice (that is a list of options from which a mind picks).

Most human actions are done by following processes either mindfully or mindlessly. Mindless processes are those that might as well be done by robots, mindful ones are done with self correction. People need to learn how to correct the actions they take. They learn by practice, examination of the results and more practice.

This ability to correct and learn is part of what makes sapience a survival characteristic, but nonsapient systems can also learn and correct, but again, not as well as sapient.

Sapience really shines in the ability to hypothesize, imagine, model, and test the modelling. In short, in our ability to consider possible consequences of ways of doing things and correct our actions accordingly.

Sometimes this kind of hypothesizing creates differences large enough to look like choices (e.g. cooking different meals, driving down different roads, posting or not posting on given threads).

But in most cases, the hypothesizing and testing leads to smaller scale corrections (how far to turn the wheel when turning a corner, where to hold the knife when chopping vegetables, etc). Those do not feel like choices because they are continuous not discrete differences.

The more skill we have in doing things, the less it seems like there is choice, because the more we already have a sense of likely consequence and can therefore adjust what we are doing without stopping to consider.

Paradoxically, the less skill we have, the less there seems to be choice either because we either don't have any idea what to do, or we're so ignorant that we're certain what to do (Dunning-Kruger effect).

The sense of choice therefore occurs only in the relatively rare situations of having some, but not enough skill to determine a correctable path to follow.

The relative rarity of these situations and the sense of pressure they engender in our minds has lead to the glorification of the idea of choice and therefore the overly dramatic sense Free Will or lack thereof.

But, the mind that can learn to do things, to hypothesize and correct its actions and learn by the corrections is far more impressive than something that can pick from a list (any computer can be programmed to do that).
 

King Neptune

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And to bring this back to writing, my latest super-hero novella involves a scientist who discovers proof of multiverse theory. Coming to the conclusion that every choice happens, and so even the most heroic action just determines which world you happen to be in and doesn't really save anyone, he has become rather depressed. No quite sure how to write myself out of that one....

Proof of which multiverse theory? There are several, and the implications vary. Perhaps only relatively nearby world are accessible, so only some of the possible outcomes are relevant (H. Beam Piper for example). Or perhaps there are many worlds, but they are inaccessible, Hugh Everett's original theory. And there are other variations in which there are different variables. Or decide which result you want and find a way to get there.
 

veinglory

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Have you read Larry Niven's short story All the Myriad Ways?
He explores aspects of this.

That's a new one to me, I'll look it up.

I've been trying to remember the author and title of a novel that was about a man whose memory was erased. Through several adventures he finds out it was because he refused to join a big secret conspiracy group, but due to the intervening experiences this time around he decides to join. It has some elements of the same ideas of free will and choice.
 

veinglory

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Proof of which multiverse theory? There are several, and the implications vary. Perhaps only relatively nearby world are accessible, so only some of the possible outcomes are relevant (H. Beam Piper for example). Or perhaps there are many worlds, but they are inaccessible, Hugh Everett's original theory. And there are other variations in which there are different variables. Or decide which result you want and find a way to get there.

Based on some technology he develops it becomes apparent to my MC that almost every possible outcome must have occurred and be occurring simultaneously, although actually travel at this point has only occurred from one other world into his world. Technically all he really knows is that the multiverse is extremely large and has so many permutations that worlds that diverge only by his (a 'him' that was identical a matter of days ago) spatial position on the planet include him being at every possible position on the planet in any given instant.

Given how my MC's very utilitarian mind works he is set up to only really be happy if his actions can possibly reduce the net amount of suffering occurring across all world, even if only by the smallest of amounts.

So what kind of proof might lead to that outcome? Yeah, I wrote myself into a corner.
 

King Neptune

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So far there have been photographs that appear to show things in wave and particle conditions at the same time. That's the closest to real evidence of Many Worlds. Rather than looking for a rigorous proof of any such theory, I think you would be safer reading several time travel novels that are examples of different theories.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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So far there have been photographs that appear to show things in wave and particle conditions at the same time. That's the closest to real evidence of Many Worlds. Rather than looking for a rigorous proof of any such theory, I think you would be safer reading several time travel novels that are examples of different theories.

Particle-Wave duality doesn't require a many worlds explanation. Quantum Field Theory gets by just fine without it.
 

veinglory

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I'm not looking for proofs, I'm looking for a somewhat believable plot twist. It is fiction after all.

For example, maybe his tech actually works for a reason different from the one he assumed and free will does actually exist (or might).
 

King Neptune

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I'm not looking for proofs, I'm looking for a somewhat believable plot twist. It is fiction after all.

For example, maybe his tech actually works for a reason different from the one he assumed and free will does actually exist (or might).

You could use the everyday dodge: I thought I was making my own decision, and I'm not sure that I wasn't.
Do you want your character to have free will or not? Either is possible with essentially the same dodge. I like to quote one of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, as translated by Edward Fitzgerald.

53
With Earth's first Clay They did the Last Man's knead,
And then of the Last Harvest sow'd the Seed:
Yea, the first Morning of Creation wrote
What the Last Dawn of Reckoning shall read.

54
I tell Thee this - When, starting from the Goal,
Over the shoulders of the flaming Foal
Of Heav'n Parwin and Mushtara they flung,
In my predestin’d Plot of Dust and Soul.

http://www.omarkhayyamrubaiyat.com/text.htm
 
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RichardGarfinkle

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Based on some technology he develops it becomes apparent to my MC that almost every possible outcome must have occurred and be occurring simultaneously, although actually travel at this point has only occurred from one other world into his world. Technically all he really knows is that the multiverse is extremely large and has so many permutations that worlds that diverge only by his (a 'him' that was identical a matter of days ago) spatial position on the planet include him being at every possible position on the planet in any given instant.

Given how my MC's very utilitarian mind works he is set up to only really be happy if his actions can possibly reduce the net amount of suffering occurring across all world, even if only by the smallest of amounts.

So what kind of proof might lead to that outcome? Yeah, I wrote myself into a corner.

I'm not looking for proofs, I'm looking for a somewhat believable plot twist. It is fiction after all.

For example, maybe his tech actually works for a reason different from the one he assumed and free will does actually exist (or might).

The simplest tech that might be useful for you is a Quantum Computer behaving in a way that it shouldn't.


More broadly, you might need to back up a bit and reconsider the every possible position on the planet idea. Possible variations of a set of conditions are not all equiprobable. A major reason for this is that we don't so much live in a universe of positions as a universe of motions.

The likelihood of being in a particular place goes down considerably depending on how much work it takes to get there. There is a concept in physics called The Principle of Least Action. It more or less states that motion is most likely to follow the easiest path. In a universe with many possibilities, most of them will cluster around processes of least action. If your MC were examining the behavior of a particle traveling and considering all the possibilities, yes there would be universes in which any such particle could be anywhere, but most of the universes would have it very close to following a path of least action.

One of the benefits of sapience is the ability to act in a non-least action way in the short term for a long term benefit. As a result humans do many things that don't seem least-action like (this is an argument for some variation of Free Will). But in dealing with this, we come to what kinds of actions a human could do and how that human might do it.

So, consider a person in your world before long distance travel was practical. How could that person be anywhere in the world? What paths of action could they have followed to get say halfway round the world?

Nowadays, such paths exist, but they are complex to follow and require that a number of people be exercising their minds at various times in order to get that person from A (Albany) to B (Brisbane) for example.

The matter of possibilities and people was dealt with briefly in Terry Pratchett's novel Night Watch. History Monk Lu-Tse (also called the Sweeper) is explaining to involuntarily time travelled cop Sam Vimes how possible worlds work.

Vimes says:
"But sometimes you can't help wondering what would have happened if I'd done something different."
"Like when you killed your wife."
Sweeper was impressed at Vimes's lack of reaction.
"This is a test, right?"
"You're a quick study, Mister Vimes."
"But in some other universe, believe me, I hauled off and punched you one."
Again, Sweeper smiled the annoying little smile that suggested he didn't believe him.
"You haven't killed your wife," he said. "Anywhere. There is nowhere, however large the multiverse is, where Sam Vimes as he is now has murdered Lady Sybil."
 

Dawnstorm

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although actually travel at this point has only occurred from one other world into his world.

This is making my head swim. How does travel work? If universes branch at probability points, then the arrival of a traveller means that the universe must also branch according to probability points in another universe: if you can only have an arrival in one universe, if something/someone left from another. How do the connections work? Do universe clusters exist as soon as travel unites them? That is the if-a-then-b, has the cause (a) in universe (A), but the effect (b) in universe (B) - intra-universally you have a different affect ("sudden dissappearance"?) in universe (A), and a different cause ("sudden appearance"?) in universe (B). How does integration work, here? Could you place your lever, here? For example, does travel involve energy transfer?

There's another, psychological solution: if he can prove that there are more possibilities for things to go wrong (because more conditions are unpleasant than pleasant) then utter destruction of the entire system can eliminate more pain than pleasure. Basically, you could have him snap and become bent on world destruction.
 
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cmi0616

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MisterV, have you ever read A History of Sexuality? I think you might find it interesting. I studied philosophy in college and kind of got indoctrinated into poststructuralist theory, wherein the concept of "free will" is kind of incoherent because desire is produced by discourse.

Who was it that said that "man cannot will what he wills?"
 

Underdawg47

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And to bring this back to writing, my latest super-hero novella involves a scientist who discovers proof of multiverse theory. Coming to the conclusion that every choice happens, and so even the most heroic action just determines which world you happen to be in and doesn't really save anyone, he has become rather depressed. No quite sure how to write myself out of that one....


I tend to believe in the multiverse theory. Combined choices of everyone determines which timeline to follow. Kinda like those Walking Dead video games.


If your scientist discovers proof of the multiverse, he can choose to be either happy or sad depending how he looked at it. In some worlds someone may suffer and die, and in other ones those same people will live happy productive lives. If this happens to everyone, then good and bad balances each other out. Knowing that the multiverse existed would make me very happy.