Having trouble knowing what to do with a sensitive scene

Dear Heart

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Hi everyone,

My MC is bi-racial, 1/4 Korean, and takes after her mom (the Korean side) in appearance. I have a scene where the boy she likes calls her "doll" and says he likes "exotic" girls. She's very hurt and it comes out (in her thoughts) that it's something her mom has warned her about and that she's dealt with it in the past.

I'm trying to decide if I should keep it or not. I need the tension between the two characters to be there, but maybe I could use something else. I'm going to have to rework what's happening while this whole conversation is going on anyways.

Anyone with a similar background as my MC have any thoughts? Is this an issue I should bring up, or should I avoid it? Would anyone be willing to read the scene to see if I handled this sensitive topic right?

Maybe I should also add that the book is a YA spy thriller. The spy bit doesn't really play a part in this scene, just the background stuff I'm needing to rework.
 

untechioux

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The character is multi-racial, 1/4 Korean...so what's the other 3/4? What race is the boy she likes? How are we supposed to know?
 

Dear Heart

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Sorry about that. Her dad's white and her mom is half white and half Korean. I have some plot reasoning behind it, but it could change over the next couple of drafts. The boy she likes is white, and they've just met. She's the "new girl" at school and he's supposed to be the all-american, boy-next-door, captain-of-the-football-team type.
 

Anna_Hedley

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Is the male character supposed to be sympathetic or is the reader supposed to think he's a tool?
 

Bacchus

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Bacchus minimus is a quarter Italian (his mother being half like your MC) but he loves it; he has the physique of an English rower, the brains of a lawyer (mother again...) and the looks and charm of an Italian charm salesman so possibly not much use as an example...

imho "doll" sounds 1950s derogatory and "exotic" sounds racist which would create more than a little tension?
 

LJD

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I'm half Chinese, half white, so I suppose I have a similar background...

I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for here. In part because, as Anna says, I don't know what kind of character the guy is supposed to be, only that you want "tension."

Is what you have something that could conceivably happen? Well, no one has ever said I'm exotic looking to my face, but I can totally believe it. "Doll" isn't something I've heard happen to mixed race people... "China doll" seems more likely to be said to someone who's 100% East Asian, or at least looks entirely East Asian (?) Not sure, though. Also "doll" sounds like a rather "old-fashioned" thing to say, not so much the kind of remark I'd expect a teenager to make?

Does she end up with this guy, but you want want to create "tension" at the beginning? In that case, I probably wouldn't go this route...
 

Odile_Blud

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I say keep it. If you feel like it moves the story along well, I don't see why not. Only you know what is best for your story. I don't think you should write with the intention to try and keep everyone happy because, in the end, that's impossible to do. Personally, I don't see it as anything offensive, and it wouldn't give me a negative view of the character. Just my two cents.
 
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Dear Heart

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Thank you everyone for chiming in, and for showing me how badly I set up this scene. :eek:

My idea was for the reader to be thinking he was her love interest and then he turns out to be a tool. He's part of the antagonist group for the first part of the book.

When I wrote it, it comes across that maybe it's more of a misunderstanding, and he does genuinely like her, but is being an ignorant jerk. But then he becomes spiteful when she won't have anything to do with him. I like the depth that gives, and they will eventually have to work together, but maybe keeping him a tool throughout would be more interesting. Their "relationship" is one of the main issues I'm needing to figure out for my second draft.


"Doll" isn't something I've heard happen to mixed race people... "China doll" seems more likely to be said to someone who's 100% East Asian, or at least looks entirely East Asian (?) Not sure, though. Also "doll" sounds like a rather "old-fashioned" thing to say, not so much the kind of remark I'd expect a teenager to make?

LJD you've given me some stuff to think about. She does look East Asian, enough that you may not realize she's bi-racial. At least in my head, but I need to make sure that comes across in my writing. I need to think about whether or not he would use the term "doll". It was popular in the 20's and 30's I think, maybe even into the 50's. He could possibly be pretentious enough to use it.
 

Tazlima

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I need to think about whether or not he would use the term "doll". It was popular in the 20's and 30's I think, maybe even into the 50's. He could possibly be pretentious enough to use it.

There are certainly people who are drawn to outdated slang for one reason or other. I could definitely see a teenager deciding to talk all 20's-style as a way to differentiate himself.

I myself was recently called the "bee's knees" by someone who's just adorkable like that, and I thought it was charming. I definitely wouldn't have responded positively to "Doll," but your character is meant to come across as less than likeable, so to my mind, it sounds like it would work, especially if he kept up the 20s/outdated schtick in his other dialogue.
 

LJD

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LJD you've given me some stuff to think about. She does look East Asian, enough that you may not realize she's bi-racial. At least in my head, but I need to make sure that comes across in my writing. I need to think about whether or not he would use the term "doll". It was popular in the 20's and 30's I think, maybe even into the 50's. He could possibly be pretentious enough to use it.

I feel weird mentioning this for some reason...but I'm struggling to imagine a girl who is 25% Korean/75% white could easily pass for being 100% Korean. I suppose it's possible, it just seems unlikely.
 

writeonleanne

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I feel weird mentioning this for some reason...but I'm struggling to imagine a girl who is 25% Korean/75% white could easily pass for being 100% Korean. I suppose it's possible, it just seems unlikely.

Don't feel weird, I was thinking the same thing. I'm half-Filipino half-white and have never passed as one or the other, so it struck me as unlikely, too.

Thank you everyone for chiming in, and for showing me how badly I set up this scene. :eek:

My idea was for the reader to be thinking he was her love interest and then he turns out to be a tool. He's part of the antagonist group for the first part of the book.

When I wrote it, it comes across that maybe it's more of a misunderstanding, and he does genuinely like her, but is being an ignorant jerk. But then he becomes spiteful when she won't have anything to do with him. I like the depth that gives, and they will eventually have to work together, but maybe keeping him a tool throughout would be more interesting. Their "relationship" is one of the main issues I'm needing to figure out for my second draft.


I absolutely get offended when people fixate on how "exotic" I look or mention anything about how beautiful my skin tone is. It's objectifying and makes me feel gross and angry.

I don't necessarily think you set up the scene badly—actually, I think it's a decent way of hinting that the guy is actually a total jerk. It would put me off his character toot sweet, though.


(added quotes for clarity)
 
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LJD

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I can't seem to stop thinking about this thread, particularly the part where you say the character is only 1/4 Korean but could pass for being Korean. That troubles me--and not just because it seems rather unlikely, as I mentioned above--though I can't fully articulate why. But I'll try.

I just can't help but wonder WHY you made the character this way. It feels like, "I made her look different so I could get points for diversity, but I don't want her to actually be all that different, so she's mostly white." Or: "I want a white character who doesn't look white." Or: "I don't want to write an Asian character, but how about a character who LOOKS Asian. Wouldn't that be COOL?" I don't know. I doubt that's what was actually going through your mind. But it sort of feels like the same kind of thing that leads people to call women like me "exotically beautifully," which, as you know, is problematic.

It's not simply the fact that she's biracial. I want more biracial characters! Occasionally I've seen people say that biracial characters are a cop-out, and that pisses me off.

But something about this particular case makes me uncomfortable.
 

Cyia

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I'm trying to decide if I should keep it or not. I need the tension between the two characters to be there, but maybe I could use something else. I'm going to have to rework what's happening while this whole conversation is going on anyways.

If you can use something else, then don't go for the low-hanging fruit of tension via appearance. I don't know how it reads in the novel, but the way you describe the scene makes it sound like you've exoticized your character in a token way, rather than an organic one. In other words, don't just go for "surface tension" between characters; go deeper.

You also need to clarify what you mean by she takes after her mom in appearance. Are you talking skin tone, hair texture, eye color, eye shape, mono-lid vs. double-lidded eyes, body-size, etc? A good number of these are matters of recessive vs. dominant traits that wouldn't be likely to express with someone given your character's background.

FWIW, I've got a guy character in the book I just finished who's half-Korean and half-English. His Mom's European traits gave him double-eyelids where his father has mono-lids. His Mom's a blonde with straight hair, so he got Dad's black/straight hair combo, too; Mom's green eyes gave way to Dad's brown, and his physical build is somewhere in the middle. You need to take genetics into account if you're going to make a bi-racial character sound realistic.
 

Dear Heart

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LJD, as I started picturing my girl when the story spark was forming I saw her as Asian (East Asian). Why, I'm not sure. I do want to be more diverse, so I want to try and keep my mind open when thinking up characters. I don't really remember when I decided that she would be biracial. In part I think it was due to a conversation I had with someone at work (I'll go more into that in a minute) and it also works with the story. The way her parents met, it's not impossible that they could both have an Asian heritage, but I feel it's unlikely. I've been thinking maybe her mom should be full, but if I carry this story into a second book, there's a plot point that I think works best if her mom was half. I know that all may be cryptic, but it relates to major plot points I'm hesitant to go into for a few reasons (none really relating to race).

I think genetics is fascinating. I'm by no means an expert, mainly going off my own observations and a little research, so I may be off. My conversation at work was with someone who was half Chinese (or possibly Korean. Honestly, it was a while ago, and it wasn't what stands out to me from the conversation. She changed jobs, so sadly, I can't ask her now.) But anyway, I knew when I met her that she was at least part East Asian, but it's not like I debated was she was half or full. I was meeting and getting to know a person, what her genetic make-up was didn't matter. One day I stopped by her office and we somehow started talking about her daughters (maybe I asked about a photo), and we talked about how one took after her and the other her husband (who is white). And really, from what I remember of the photo, you wouldn't have picked the girls out to be sisters. Genetics are amazing. You can have two girls 25% Asian and have one that you would think of as Asian and one you would never guess. Maybe it's rare, I don't know, but it does happen.

So I feel like it's possible that my girl could either take after her mom or her dad. I don't go into a ton of details about her appearance, not my style, so it's not that she hasn't inherited anything from the white side of her genes. Her mom's hair is black and she has dark brown hair like her dad, but from what I understand not everyone in East Asia has black hair, some have dark brown too, so that doesn't set her apart as being biracial.

I hope my reasoning make a little more sense, LBD. I've been debating making changes, but I still feel strongly it works best for where I want to take the story. I might be writing her too White. I haven't been trying to write her as Asian, just as a person. Is that wrong? There's really only one scene where her race is at the forefront. It's a spy thriller and she has a lot of other things going on.

If you can use something else, then don't go for the low-hanging fruit of tension via appearance. I don't know how it reads in the novel, but the way you describe the scene makes it sound like you've exoticized your character in a token way, rather than an organic one. In other words, don't just go for "surface tension" between characters; go deeper.

I need to think about that some more.
 

mccardey

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I can't seem to stop thinking about this thread

Me too, but for me it was
Her dad's white and her mom is half white and half Korean. She's the "new girl" at school and he's supposed to be the all-american, boy-next-door, captain-of-the-football-team type.
which seems to signal white as a nationality.

ETA: And now that I've mentioned that, I wonder if the all-American boy-next-door is still captain-of-the-football-team material? Or if that might be dated. And whether I might have just accepted all of it without thought, if you hadn't gone and brought it to my attention. Now I have no way of knowing, but it seems problematic. *sigh*

Good luck with it, OP.
 
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LJD

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Me too, but for me it was which seems to signal white as a nationality.

But Korean isn't just a nationality, is it? I think it's an ethnic group too, like Han Chinese.

Anyway, it doesn't bother me. I often say I'm half-white, half-Chinese. I can't just say "half-Asian" or people would ask for further details...
 
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LJD

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One day I stopped by her office and we somehow started talking about her daughters (maybe I asked about a photo), and we talked about how one took after her and the other her husband (who is white). And really, from what I remember of the photo, you wouldn't have picked the girls out to be sisters. Genetics are amazing. You can have two girls 25% Asian and have one that you would think of as Asian and one you would never guess. Maybe it's rare, I don't know, but it does happen.

From my experience, that would be pretty rare. Never seen it, and I know several people with somewhat similar backgrounds. So if you are going to make her look that way, I would address it, because it seems quite unusual to me. My brother and I, in contrast, look quite similar.

So I feel like it's possible that my girl could either take after her mom or her dad. I don't go into a ton of details about her appearance, not my style, so it's not that she hasn't inherited anything from the white side of her genes. Her mom's hair is black and she has dark brown hair like her dad, but from what I understand not everyone in East Asia has black hair, some have dark brown too, so that doesn't set her apart as being biracial.

Most of my features are in between those of my parents, with the exception of eye color. Like the shape of my nose, the prominence of my brow ridge, the color of my hair. Skin tone...I guess is closer to my mom?

I hope my reasoning make a little more sense, LBD. I've been debating making changes, but I still feel strongly it works best for where I want to take the story. I might be writing her too White. I haven't been trying to write her as Asian, just as a person. Is that wrong? There's really only one scene where her race is at the forefront. It's a spy thriller and she has a lot of other things going on.

Of course the most important thing is that she is a person. That is not *wrong*.

I don't find your choices offensive, but a little bit clueless, for the reasons I stated above, and whatever reasoning you have wouldn't change that. After all, all your reasoning won't be in the novel, will it? Like I said, it's not the fact that she's 1/4 Asian, 3/4 white...no issues there. That's cool. But it sounds like you are exoticizing your character, which is perhaps ironic given your initial question...
 
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mccardey

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But Korean isn't just a nationality, is it? I think it's an ethnic group too, like Han Chinese.

There's something about positing white as a nationality though... I've thought about it. White is just too big, too unformed to say Well, Korean and Also there's White about nationality.

But I may not have noticed it, if OP hadn't got me thinking.
 
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LJD

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There's something about positing white as a nationality though...

So what would you suggest I say instead...? It's just the easiest way to describe myself quickly. I don't see it as signalling "white" as a nationality. If I'm having a long discussion with someone, I'll go into detail about my father's background, but not to quickly describe myself, something which can be very annoying when you are mixed race. There's no way to do it that doesn't feel kind of weird. It feels misleading to say my father is British and Irish, considering my family has been in Canada for over a 100 years, over 200 years for some parts of the family (ie, before Canada existed). But I can't just say he's "Canadian"...
 

mccardey

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So what would you suggest I say instead...? It's just the easiest way to describe myself quickly. I don't see it as signalling "white" as a nationality. If I'm having a long discussion with someone, I'll go into detail about my father's background, but not to quickly describe myself, something which can be very annoying when you are mixed race. There's no way to do it that doesn't feel kind of weird. It feels misleading to say my father is British and Irish, considering my family has been in Canada for over a 100 years, over 200 years for some parts of the family (ie, before Canada existed). But I can't just say he's "Canadian"...
Well, I'm not suggesting you do anything. I was responding to OP's comment with my (non-American) viewpoint which says (for me) that it's odd to hear White as a nationality (along with Captain-of the-football-team as the All-American-boy descriptor for 2017) and the sense that I might not have noticed either without this thread. So I think it's a good thread.

In Australia I think (racists that we are) White, by itself, doesn't signify much. It certainly doesn't necessarily mean acceptably Australian - or non-Korean. We have issues with all sorts of White. We differentiate.

ETA: I don't know that Korean is a problem here, though, at the moment. I'm just saying. That might change.
 
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Snitchcat

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Hi everyone,

My MC is bi-racial, 1/4 Korean, and takes after her mom (the Korean side) in appearance. I have a scene where the boy she likes calls her "doll" and says he likes "exotic" girls. She's very hurt and it comes out (in her thoughts) that it's something her mom has warned her about and that she's dealt with it in the past.

I'm trying to decide if I should keep it or not. I need the tension between the two characters to be there, but maybe I could use something else. I'm going to have to rework what's happening while this whole conversation is going on anyways.

Anyone with a similar background as my MC have any thoughts? Is this an issue I should bring up, or should I avoid it? Would anyone be willing to read the scene to see if I handled this sensitive topic right?

Maybe I should also add that the book is a YA spy thriller. The spy bit doesn't really play a part in this scene, just the background stuff I'm needing to rework.

I have the opposite problem. But perhaps my experience might help you:

These days I live in China, and am close to 100% Chinese, however, I have enough European in me to elicit comments of "foreigner" from Chinese people and some (those who dare, most don't) wonder aloud where I'm really from. Add the accent (it's not a Chinese accent), and it starts more a fascination thing than anything too hurtful. However, that said, "foreigner" hurts. Essentially, it says "other", whether or not I claim such an identity. It's an assumption that these people (strangers or not) know me. And that assumption is offensive and enraging.

All this to say that identity will play a large part in how your character sees herself in relation to this guy. If he genuinely likes her, and the reverse is true, anything he might say will sting, hurt and possibly fester into all out rage. Why? Because he should understand without having to be told, or at least be sensitive to such terms. Yes, it is ridiculous to expect someone to understand or be sensitive without explanation. However, it's not without logic: if the guy truly likes "exotic" girls, he would presumably have enough knowledge and respect to know what might offend or hurt.

Where the tension might come in then, is the guy's stubborn refusal to understand because the MC hasn't explained anything. But instant reactions, especially hurt, tend to shut down responses, unless the MC is conditioned to overcome such an automatic defence mechanism. And part of East Asian (I really hate that word; pet peeve, don't mind me) culture is that you never talk about your feelings directly. It's all about keeping the peace, being outwardly positive, a role model, etc. Inside, the emotions roil, and there's no healthy outlet unless you've been taught techniques for it, or you can naturally deal with such things.

As a secondary school student, names will not simply hurt, they will gouge. Depending on what year your MC is in, it'll either be puberty playing havoc with hormones, or she'll be struggling with who she wants to become. And being "different" begs ostracisation. Add it all together, and the situation isn't just "tense", it's explosive, especially if the MC and the guy are mutually attracted to each other, but he turns out to be a complete jerk. That could be devastating, regardless of how well-trained, or well-adjusted the MC is.

Anyway, it's late, and this is getting long. So I don't really know if I make sense any more. Hope this helps somehow. Good luck!
 

Dear Heart

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Thanks to everyone who posted, I appreciate you sharing your opinions, and you got me thinking. :)

And thank you Snitchcat for sharing your story. :Hug2: The scene is kind of explosive, or it ends that way, but she has friends to give her support as she deals with aftermath.

The whole "white" as a nationality discussion is interesting and something I never really thought about. I describe myself as white, but I don't know what else I would say. Caucasian? I'm American, but that says nothing about my race. My last name is Scottish, and I do think of myself in part as Scottish, but describing myself as Scottish American makes it sound like my ancestors immigrated within the last few generations which is not the case. It also doesn't take into account that I'm also English, Welsh, Irish, German, French, and those are just the more common. I may also be part Native American, but I haven't been able to confirm that yet. I'm having trouble with that side of my family line (I like genealogy).

In Australia I think (racists that we are) White, by itself, doesn't signify much. It certainly doesn't necessarily mean acceptably Australian - or non-Korean. We have issues with all sorts of White. We differentiate.

What do you say?
 

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The "all-american, boy-next-door, captain-of-the-football-team type" who is also "white" and who is (of course) also "a tool" has been done to the point of being a bad cliché. What might be more interesting than this cardboard character is another biracial who behaves like your football character because he thinks that's the way to get respect. Birds of a feather attract, but they see the world in very different ways. Then it's even more sinister when he goes fully over to the dark side. Just a thought.
 

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Dear Heart--I'm Hispanic and my husband is half Indian and our kids turned out blonde. Yes, genetics are amazing. You never know what you'll get. So if it works for your story to have your protagonist look a certain way, then forge ahead and do it!