I have questions about Ingram Advance, Contests, and Conventions.

dibbiluncan

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I signed a two-year contract with a small press in August. They did an excellent job on my cover and formatting, and my book (I actually had it critiqued here- YA Sci-Fi "The Scorching") is set to release later this month. They mainly print-on-demand but get books in stores when possible. My book is available for preorder through their website already, and upon release it will be available on Amazon and B&N.com. My wholesale discount is set at 50% and it is returnable with no fee, so I'm hoping that I can get it in stores as well, especially for book signings.

Anyway, my publisher does some promoting via their website, social media, and supposedly they send out a press release and send out copies to be reviewed, but other than that they expect their authors to pay for a lot. They recently sent me links to sign up for Ingram Advance, several writing contests, and several conventions, all of which range from $50 to $150. Of course none of it is required. Same goes for buying my own books. They provide a discount and encourage us to sell our own books, but it's not mandatory.

I was pretty blunt. I told them I wasn't planning on spending my own money, and that if I could do that I would've just self-published. They told me most successful authors start out investing some of their own funds these days, but that if I didn't want to do it I shouldn't worry about it. They weren't too pushy about it or anything, but I'm starting to wonder if they don't make more money off their authors than they do book sales.

Since I haven't spent any money, technically I've already made a profit based on preorders alone. But after talking to some of the other authors in my publishing house, it seems most of them never have to worry about doing taxes because they barely break even. There are a couple successful authors, but I think they also self-publish other titles so they have a larger platform.

I knew signing with a small press would be different than a big publisher, but is all of this normal? Should I be spending my own money on these things? Is it worth it? Ingram Advance seems good on paper, especially because I want to try and get my books in stores... but it's $125 (which includes a standard listing and additional ad space in their newsletter or something, according to my publisher), and I have to go through the publisher (they said they will send me an invoice if I decide to do it).

My gut is telling me to avoid giving my publisher any money. As far as I know, it's supposed to be the other way around. I feel like as long as I avoid their clever traps, it could still be a good thing. I got a free cover, editing, formatting, some promotion, and distribution. It was way faster than finding an agent and going traditional, and way cheaper than self-publishing (as long as I'm careful).

My book has gotten really positive feedback from my test audience (multiple beta readers, two critique partners, two proofreaders, a librarian, and two of my reading lab classes). With a good cover and good promo, I think it could be a great start to my career. I just need to know if I'm making the right choice to avoid spending my own money on it. I can hopefully set up book signings, readings, Q&As etc. that don't require much investment on my part. Is that plus social media enough?
 

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I was pretty blunt. I told them I wasn't planning on spending my own money, and that if I could do that I would've just self-published. They told me most successful authors start out investing some of their own funds these days, but that if I didn't want to do it I shouldn't worry about it. They weren't too pushy about it or anything, but I'm starting to wonder if they don't make more money off their authors than they do book sales.

It's just not true that "most successful authors start out investing some of their own funds these days". Not as far as most trade publishers are concerned. It might be true for writers who publish with your publisher, but that doesn't make it right.

Since I haven't spent any money, technically I've already made a profit based on preorders alone. But after talking to some of the other authors in my publishing house, it seems most of them never have to worry about doing taxes because they barely break even. There are a couple successful authors, but I think they also self-publish other titles so they have a larger platform.

That's a shame.

I knew signing with a small press would be different than a big publisher, but is all of this normal? Should I be spending my own money on these things? Is it worth it? Ingram Advance seems good on paper, especially because I want to try and get my books in stores... but it's $125 (which includes a standard listing and additional ad space in their newsletter or something, according to my publisher), and I have to go through the publisher (they said they will send me an invoice if I decide to do it).

There are lots of different sorts of small publishers. It's not normal to have to pay your way with most good publishers.

Ingram Advance means getting your book into the Ingram Advance catalogue, right? (Please tell me if I'm wrong.) Getting your book into a catalogue isn't going to help sell many more copies of your book. It'll make it easier to order once someone asks for it, but unless there's a sales team actively selling your book into bookshops, you're not going to get bookshop placement.

My gut is telling me to avoid giving my publisher any money. As far as I know, it's supposed to be the other way around. I feel like as long as I avoid their clever traps, it could still be a good thing. I got a free cover, editing, formatting, some promotion, and distribution. It was way faster than finding an agent and going traditional, and way cheaper than self-publishing (as long as I'm careful).

My book has gotten really positive feedback from my test audience (multiple beta readers, two critique partners, two proofreaders, a librarian, and two of my reading lab classes). With a good cover and good promo, I think it could be a great start to my career. I just need to know if I'm making the right choice to avoid spending my own money on it. I can hopefully set up book signings, readings, Q&As etc. that don't require much investment on my part. Is that plus social media enough?

I can't tell you if what you're doing is going to be enough, nor can I tell you if your publisher is going to help you sell your books as I don't know who they are, or anything about them.

All I can say is if your publisher doesn't have full bookshop distribution AND they expect you to do the lion's share of marketing and promotion, you're not likely to sell many copies, I'm afraid. You might have done better to have taken the time to find an agent, but that avenue is closed to you now, so look ahead and work out what you CAN do. Have you read the "SEO Dweeb" thread in our book promotion room? That would be a good start.

Good luck!
 

dibbiluncan

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Thanks.

I made the mistake of querying before I was ready. My first round (most of my top picks) got me nowhere. After heavy revisions and more feedback, I entered a few twitter contests and got several full requests, but ultimately the only offer I got was from my current publisher.

I feel pretty confident that I would've found an agent with another round of revisions and queries, but I also knew that even then, it could be years before I got my book published. I turned 30 this year. I know that's relatively young as far as authors go, but I wanted to have my first book published by 30, and this let me accomplish that. Like I said, I still got a pretty good deal. Even traditional authors have to do a lot of self-promotion these days, so I don't feel like I'm losing out on a lot.

Perhaps what I take from your post is that maybe I *should* actually invest some of my money now, because based on what my publisher is doing for me, it won't be enough to establish my book? And yes, I am referring to Ingram's Advance Catalog. So if I get in there, can I contact bookstores myself? I've actually had a lot of experience in sales/retail, so I think I could do it. I know it'd be a lot of work, but I'm willing to do it to see my book succeed. I'd rather do that than buy copies of my book and sell it from my car like a door-to-door salesman.
 

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I feel pretty confident that I would've found an agent with another round of revisions and queries, but I also knew that even then, it could be years before I got my book published. I turned 30 this year. I know that's relatively young as far as authors go, but I wanted to have my first book published by 30, and this let me accomplish that. Like I said, I still got a pretty good deal. Even traditional authors have to do a lot of self-promotion these days, so I don't feel like I'm losing out on a lot.

It's trade publishing, not traditional.

I know lots of very successful trade-published authors who do no self-promotion at all. They can do it if they want to: but it's not obligatory and if their sales depend on it, they're not being published as well as they could be. I think this claim that they have to do so much is put about by publishers who don't invest all the money they should in publishing their books well, or by people who don't know what they're doing. Don't believe it. It's a myth.

Perhaps what I take from your post is that maybe I *should* actually invest some of my money now, because based on what my publisher is doing for me, it won't be enough to establish my book? And yes, I am referring to Ingram's Advance Catalog. So if I get in there, can I contact bookstores myself? I've actually had a lot of experience in sales/retail, so I think I could do it. I know it'd be a lot of work, but I'm willing to do it to see my book succeed. I'd rather do that than buy copies of my book and sell it from my car like a door-to-door salesman.

It sounds to me as though your publisher is doing very little to sell your book, and your book will not do well because it's been published badly. I might be wrong because I still don't know who your publisher is, or how they work. But I have to say that throwing money at it now isn't necessarily doing to make things work more effectively for you. Be careful.

I don't know much about Ingram Advance, so can't comment from an informed point of view on whether it's worth it or not: but I do know that any books with an ISBN will get listed one way or another in the catalogues booksellers use. Is it worth paying more money to include your book in this catalogue? I don't know. What does it bring that you don't already have? Have you checked what the actual cost is for achieving this listing? Might your publisher be charging you over the odds here? Make sure what's what.

Yes, you could try selling your book into bookshops. If it's POD then there are going to be lots of bookshops which won't touch it, because the binding isn't robust enough to withstand much shelfwear. Check that your publisher will accept returns and that it will offer sale or return and a decent line of credit. My betting is that it won't, because very few publishers will: and if it won't, no matter how hard you try to sell your book into shops you'll have little real success.

If you sell enough copies into bookshops and your book does suddenly pick up and do well, your publisher is unlikely to have the systems in place which are required to cope with providing sufficient copies to match demand. It's another problem for POD publishers.

It might be better if you let your two year contract run its course and make no effort to sell the book. Then when the rights revert to you, rework the book so it's the best it can be, and see what else you can do with it. Bearing in mind you've suggested the book could have been better, do you really want to sell a book you know is substandard? It'll be out there forever, and if it's not so good it's going to put readers off your future books.


ETA: I've just worked out who your publisher is. My advice? Forget your book. Do nothing to promote it or sell it. Leave it alone and wait out the two years until the contract comes to an end, and meanwhile write more books. Focus on those new books and when you get this one back, you might find a better publisher to take it on--and if you don't, you can self publish a better version of it.
 
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dibbiluncan

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I meant it could've been better when I queried; it's as close to perfect as I can get it now. My writer's group on reddit says my cover, synopsis, and formatting are very professional. I revised it again, then my publisher provided some editing, then when they gave me the bookblock it went through three more rounds: line editing, proofreading, and a final polishing/checking round. I also had a librarian read it and he wholly approved. I've been reading it to my students and they love it.

As for your edit... wouldn't that hurt my chances at getting it or anything else published in the future? I've read that if you publish something unsuccessfully it's a really bad thing. And I can't just forget my book. I've worked really hard on it. I've already been promoting it. It's part of a planned series. I know my publisher isn't the best, but if I play my cards right surely I can make something happen. What's so bad about them that you think I should just lose all hope?
 
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Old Hack

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I meant it could've been better when I queried; it's as close to perfect as I can get it now. My writer's group on reddit says my cover, synopsis, and formatting are very professional. I revised it again, then my publisher provided some editing, then when they gave me the bookblock it went through three more rounds: line editing, proofreading, and a final polishing/checking round. I also had a librarian read it and he wholly approved. I've been reading it to my students and they love it.

There's no "look inside" feature on Amazon so I can't see what your book is like: but I've read excerpts from a few books from your publisher and the editing wasn't good.

(Also, note that "proofreading" is that "final polishing/checking round": it's the last chance to change anything before a book is printed.)

As for your edit... wouldn't that hurt my chances at getting it or anything else published in the future? I've read that if you publish something unsuccessfully it's a really bad thing. And I can't just forget my book. I've worked really hard on it. I've already been promoting it. It's part of a planned series. I know my publisher isn't the best, but if I play my cards right surely I can make something happen. What's so bad about them that you think I should just lose all hope?

You're right that being published badly is a problem, which can have long-lasting consequences on your career. But that's where you are now, and you have to think very carefully about where you want to take this. It could make a big difference to your publishing future.

It's hard to find a publisher willing to take on a book which has already been published, you're right. But if a book has sold very few copies, some publishers will consider it unpublished and will be willing to have a punt at it--IF the book is good enough. Which you think it is.

If you make no effort to promote it, it won't sell and that might be enough to give it a second chance. If you work your socks off to sell copies it's going to acquire more of a footprint online, which could be enough to scupper its chances of finding a home anywhere else.

I'm not suggesting you forget about this book: just that you think tactically.

You say it's the first in a planned series: I don't know any publishers which will take on books 2 and 3 of a trilogy if book 1 is with another publisher. You might be stuck with this publisher for the rest of the series. Be careful.
 

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So, Old Hack has, as always, given great advice. I don't know who your publisher is, but I would trust OH's insight 100%.

I want to address the whole "investing funds from the start" thing, from a YA angle, which I see your book is.

As a trade published YA author I did not pay for: distribution, fees for contest submission, promo, or any of the travel I did that my debut publisher arranged. My debut publisher submitted me for awards and special things like the Indie Next list and teen-centric conferences, absorbing whatever costs associated with those things completely. The author copies--both hardback and then later paperback--I was provided were free and how many of them I got were outlined in my contract.

As a trade published YA author I did (on my own volition) pay for: bookmarks, swag related to my book ie: buttons, magnets, pens, postcards to send to libraries/teachers/etc, bookplates, plus someone to design it all. I paid for mailing costs to send out the 20 or so ARCs I was given by my publisher to do what I wanted with. I pay for my web site design and hosting, as well as a PO Box for snail mail. If I did more non-publisher sponsered events, I'd likely pay for my gas/travel for those things, but I personally don't do many events unless my publisher is sending me. But that's all I pay for: the extras/frills/swag stuff that's totally voluntary and is mostly for fun/my teen reader's enjoyment and the practical stuff like postage web sites and PO Boxes.

Other than the initial push/blog tour/interview stuff in the first six weeks after release (a lot of which my publicists arranged), I did very little self-promo. I feel better when my focus is on the writing and connecting with my teen readers, and my sales (and mood!) tell me that was a good choice. Some people really enjoy promo, though, and are incredibly talented at it. But the burden to distribute and market your book to booksellers and large markets should be on your publisher, not you. As an author, you usually can only do so much to move the dial, sales-wise, because it's within your ability to market yourself and your work to individual readers, but not as much in your power to market yourself to the booksellers who are making ordering decisions or the teen-centric media venues, because that's your publishers's job (or it should be).

It can be very hard to get traction on a YA novel unless it has wide placement in bookstores and depending on the book, libraries. Teenagers still primarily prefer to read and buy print books, I think partly because a lot of them get their books from libraries and also because many don't have credit cards/means or devices to buy/read ebooks.

Trade Publishers have connections with the library and bookseller market that can be pretty vital to a YA book's success. There are trade published YA books that don't get selected by Barnes and Noble, for instance, and that can really hurt the book's sales and visibility, because that's an incredibly important market. You may have success getting your book into some local bookstores, but widespread distribution say, in every Barnes and Noble in the western US, is likely not going to be something that is likely to be accomplished, especially if the book is POD. And in general, you really need that shelf-space and visibility for YA especially.

You're also going to have difficulty with bookstore placement and readership because of the price of your paperback. 17.95 is a price point where most YA hardcovers--which are usually really beautifully designed--start and many people will wait until the cheaper paperback come out unless they REALLY want the book. Paperbacks in YA are typically 9.99.

Obviously, what you want to do is up to you. As someone who had a goal to have a book deal before she was 25, I understand that urgent voice in the back of your head saying if you don't do something now to make this work, it won't ever happen. But be prepared for a steep, uphill climb. Join some YA author groups (there are some great ones on Facebook, some more trade focused, others more self-published focused) for support and be really, really careful with your publisher and giving them money.

I wish you best of luck!
 

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I know who the OP's publisher is. It was started by an author who got caught out by a notorious vanity press then decided it had a good business model, so started up his own little tribute-publisher. As far as I can see he has no publishing experience other than that, and so probably has little or no idea how wrong he's getting things. It's not good. I'm sorry, dibbiluncan. I wish I had better news for you. But I don't think you're going to get anywhere with your book no matter what you do, or how much money you throw at it.
 

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Ok. I won't throw my money at it, but I'm still convinced there's a chance it can do well. If it doesn't, I'll self-publish it it two years along with the rest of the series. I'd rather try my hardest than let my book fail in hopes that I can find a better deal later on. That's just not the kind of person I am.

Now I'm wondering if I should go ahead and self-publish the sequel or just stick with them for the free cover and formatting. I made sure my contract allowed for that. I still have the rights to all the characters and settings, etc.
 

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I'd self publish rather than sign anything else over to them. You will have to pay for editing, formatting, cover etc but you'll make 100% of the income it brings home, and you'll not have to put up with their nonsense.

Sorry I couldn't be more positive. I really hope you do well.
 

dibbiluncan

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Thank you Old Hack and tsharpe for the encouragement. I won't let this hold me back. I'm still going to make writing my career. This is nothing but an obstacle I will overcome. It's unfortunate that my first steps into publishing were through the mud, but I'll brush it off.
 

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Thank you Old Hack and tsharpe for the encouragement. I won't let this hold me back. I'm still going to make writing my career. This is nothing but an obstacle I will overcome. It's unfortunate that my first steps into publishing were through the mud, but I'll brush it off.

When you get to the point again where you're considering publishers, check out the Bewares, Recommendations, and Background Check subforum here before you submit (or at least before you sign a contract). There's a 24-page thread on your current publisher that might have made you think twice about committing to them.
 

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I'll be sure to do that, although having read the first and last pages, I will say that my experience hasn't been completely terrible. I've read of many publishers that are much worse. It's not an ideal situation, but I don't agree that they're a vanity publisher. They just barely escape that title, but they do. You don't have to pay them anything to get published (they just have a lot of optional stuff you can do). I actually got five free copies of my book, free formatting and cover art, some basic editing, some promotion, and someone to handle the process of getting it published/printed/distributed. Their current cover artist is pretty awesome. I like mine, and I've seen a few other recent ones that looked good too. I'm still okay with the decision to sign with them. I can't afford to self-publish right now, and I was too impatient to go through another round of queries and all the uncertainty of traditional publishing. Of course I wish I'd found a better small press, but there's nothing I can do but make the best of it now. I won't give them any of my money. So whatever they get from me will be from book sales only. I'll just focus on finishing the sequel; hopefully by the time it's ready I'll have the money and time to invest in self-publishing.

Then when I'm ready to move on to a different project, I'll have learned a lot and hopefully I'll have some good book sales to help me land an agent with my next book.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but that's just the kind of person I am. :)
 

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Hey, you need a certain amount of optimism in this business! Best of luck with the book--hope you do well with it.
 

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I'll be sure to do that, although having read the first and last pages, I will say that my experience hasn't been completely terrible. I've read of many publishers that are much worse.

1) Your book has not been published yet, so you're not yet fully informed about how it's going to be.

2) I've worked with many publishers which are much, much better than yours.

3) It's no endorsement to say your publisher isn't the worst one out there.

It's not an ideal situation, but I don't agree that they're a vanity publisher.

It's almost certain that they make more money from their authors than they make from selling their authors' books, which would make them a vanity press. You've asked in this thread about paying them money for various things: again, this is a clear sign they're a vanity press.

They just barely escape that title, but they do. You don't have to pay them anything to get published (they just have a lot of optional stuff you can do).

They're a back-end vanity press, making money from their authors by selling them "services".

I actually got five free copies of my book, free formatting and cover art, some basic editing, some promotion, and someone to handle the process of getting it published/printed/distributed. Their current cover artist is pretty awesome. I like mine, and I've seen a few other recent ones that looked good too. I'm still okay with the decision to sign with them. I can't afford to self-publish right now, and I was too impatient to go through another round of queries and all the uncertainty of traditional publishing. Of course I wish I'd found a better small press, but there's nothing I can do but make the best of it now. I won't give them any of my money. So whatever they get from me will be from book sales only. I'll just focus on finishing the sequel; hopefully by the time it's ready I'll have the money and time to invest in self-publishing.

Then when I'm ready to move on to a different project, I'll have learned a lot and hopefully I'll have some good book sales to help me land an agent with my next book.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but that's just the kind of person I am. :)

I wish you luck. But I can't see any way this book, with this publisher, is going to do anything which will impress agents.

Ask your publisher how many copies per title they usually sell. Compare that to sales from most trade presses.
 
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1) They're a back-end vanity press, making money from their authors by selling them "services".

I mentioned that they expect their authors to pay for more than they probably should, but the only way they make money from their authors is if they buy their own books. Otherwise the services they're promoting (extra editing, contests, advertising, or conventions) are from outside sources.
 

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It's highly likely that most of their authors DO buy their own books from this publisher, and that most of the services they sell pay them a commission on those sales.

I know this is hard to hear. But it doesn't matter how many excuses you make for them, or how hard you want it to be untrue: they are still a vanity press.
 

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I'm a little late to the conversation, but I wanted to make a comment about the Ingram Advance catalog. In my experience, these catalogs go straight into the recycling bin, maybe after a quick skim for recognizable publishers and authors or a few sections of specialties. I can't speak for all bookstore buyers, but this is not where most of us look for upcoming titles. I do not advise paying your publisher to have your book listed in this catalog.

In any case, your book is still listed in the Ingram system (I checked). It is available to be ordered by bookstores. It has a slightly short discount but it is listed as returnable. So if, for example, a customer wanted me to order your book for them, I'd be happy to. And I hope you don't mind my being blunt - but if I learned about your book and thought it sounded great, the main reason I would be reluctant to bring it into the store and put it on the shelves is the price. A YA paperback should be $10-$13 with very few exceptions.

If you do decide to reach out to bookstores, being in Ingram Advance won't make a difference. But be forewarned - even a small store carries 10,000+ titles, so keep in mind what it would be like if they had to deal with that many authors, or hear from hundreds of authors every week about new releases. If you do decide to reach out to stores, focus on those that have large YA sections, and don't spend money. Just send professional-looking emails and make sure to tell the store that your book is available and returnable through Ingram.

I'll also address the POD thing in a general way while I'm here. Knowing a book is POD is not a make-or-break-it thing for all booksellers, not like it was 6 or 8 years ago. There are some really great independent micro-presses which use POD to print their books. The books are otherwise very high quality (good editing, nice covers that include the bar code and a printed price, etc) and some of them sell really well. I don't begrudge them the use of POD - they are just getting started, they are doing good work and carefully selecting their titles, and they have proper distribution (through IPG, for example). As they move forward I imagine they'll start doing bigger off-set print runs when it makes sense. I don't even mind slightly short discounts - if I think a book is awesome I'm not worried about the 80 extra cents I'm not making in profit. I want to see the publisher succeed if they're on the right track. Maybe some booksellers are purist snobs about it but not all of us!

Hope some of this was helpful.
 
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dibbiluncan

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I'm a little late to the conversation, but I wanted to make a comment about the Ingram Advance catalog. In my experience, these catalogs go straight into the recycling bin, maybe after a quick skim for recognizable publishers and authors or a few sections of specialties. I can't speak for all bookstore buyers, but this is not where most of us look for upcoming titles. I do not advise paying your publisher to have your book listed in this catalog.

In any case, your book is still listed in the Ingram system (I checked). It is available to be ordered by bookstores. It has a slightly short discount but it is listed as returnable. So if, for example, a customer wanted me to order your book for them, I'd be happy to. And I hope you don't mind my being blunt - but if I learned about your book and thought it sounded great, the main reason I would be reluctant to bring it into the store and put it on the shelves is the price. A YA paperback should be $10-$13 with very few exceptions.

If you do decide to reach out to bookstores, being in Ingram Advance won't make a difference. But be forewarned - even a small store carries 10,000+ titles, so keep in mind what it would be like if they had to deal with that many authors, or hear from hundreds of authors every week about new releases. If you do decide to reach out to stores, focus on those that have large YA sections, and don't spend money. Just send professional-looking emails and make sure to tell the store that your book is available and returnable through Ingram.

I'll also address the POD thing in a general way while I'm here. Knowing a book is POD is not a make-or-break-it thing for all booksellers, not like it was 6 or 8 years ago. There are some really great independent micro-presses which use POD to print their books. The books are otherwise very high quality (good editing, nice covers that include the bar code and a printed price, etc) and some of them sell really well. I don't begrudge them the use of POD - they are just getting started, they are doing good work and carefully selecting their titles, and they have proper distribution (through IPG, for example). As they move forward I imagine they'll start doing bigger off-set print runs when it makes sense. I don't even mind slightly short discounts - if I think a book is awesome I'm not worried about the 80 extra cents I'm not making in profit. I want to see the publisher succeed if they're on the right track. Maybe some booksellers are purist snobs about it but not all of us!

Hope some of this was helpful.

Thank you very much! I really appreciate your advice and I'm happy to get confirmation that it isn't completely hopeless. I have a feeling they set their prices so high because they are trying to make more money from authors buying their own books "at a discount." I'm sad that I didn't find a better publisher for my debut, but I still want to make the best of an imperfect situation.
 

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Thank you very much! I really appreciate your advice and I'm happy to get confirmation that it isn't completely hopeless. I have a feeling they set their prices so high because they are trying to make more money from authors buying their own books "at a discount." I'm sad that I didn't find a better publisher for my debut, but I still want to make the best of an imperfect situation.

My bold.

They probably did. Shame on them.

You really do deserve better. I hope it all goes well for you.