I'm very curious as to why this thread managed to piss everyone off. All I did was comment about how difficult it was to find exact statistics on a few items, and maybe a few others, from the publishing companies themselves, and then all of a sudden everyone's off on this bandwagon down the hill as if I just said everyones mother was obese and ate grubs and pork rinds all day. It's as if, by insulting the transparency of the publishing companies, I insulted the authors instead. That is absolutely not the case. If I insult an individual, it's pretty obvious. Maybe its, "your avatar sucks," or "I can't believe you actually think you'll ever get published." Then I mention the fact that I use stats to help run my business when I need to, and I manage to offend the fellow business owners here. Then I fail to quote everyone exactly, and that winds up offending someone, too. Seriously, folks. Lighten up a bit, all right? It makes me wonder if I should ever ask a generalized question here again.
Why are stats impossible to find?
- Thread starter MisterV
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2011
- Messages
- 11,748
- Reaction score
- 12,190
- Location
- Atherton Tablelands
- Website
- snailseyeview.medium.com
Mate, you might want to think about this post to see how it comes across. This thread isn't offensive. It demonstrates that you haven't done the most basic of homework about the publishing industry before having a whinge about it.
It's probably just a tone thing, Mr V. A lot of people here work in or around publishing or are published, and your questions were not really clear, not very informed and were shrouded in what sounded a fair bit like accusations of secrecy. Also, it's Jan 2 - historically a day of bad tempers. This will sink to the bottom soon, and you can start other threads and have a better time of it generally.
Welcome to AW.
ETA: X-posted with the stone curlew. What are the odds?
Welcome to AW.
ETA: X-posted with the stone curlew. What are the odds?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2011
- Messages
- 11,748
- Reaction score
- 12,190
- Location
- Atherton Tablelands
- Website
- snailseyeview.medium.com
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2006
- Messages
- 8,745
- Reaction score
- 3,096
- Location
- Toronto, Canada
- Website
- www.adriennekress.com
I think re-reading your initial post it read kind of aggressive and negative towards the industry. If you wanted your questions to come across as sincere you probably should have simply asked in the following manner: "Hey guys, having trouble getting stats on the publishing industry, can anyone help me out with this, or if it's hard to find can anyone explain why that might be?" Instead you decided that the reason that you couldn't get information was because publishers were secretive and/or archaic. You were basically drawing the assumption that the lack of ready information was because there was something wrong with publishing vs there being an actual valid reason such information isn't available.
It also can get frustrating for us when people ask questions that can be found through google.
Ultimately, it came across insincere. It came across like what you wanted to do was vent about how stupid the publishing industry was, which was clearly not your intent. But for many of us who have been here for years (I've been here a decade you might notice) we have encountered far too many fly by posters who want to insult all of trade publishing and then run away. When we see similar wording and accusations in a post we can get suspicious. And then when the person seems to think for several posts that the replies from seasoned professionals aren't good enough, or that they seem to know more about publishing and how statistics work, people get even more suspicious. Eventually you noted that you saw some validity in people's posts but it took a fair bit of back and forth to get there.
So that's the answer to the question, if indeed you were asking a sincere question this time. Because again the way you phrased your question came across as more of a desire to diss people, tell them to lighten up, and mock us as if we are some sticklers to a very rigid form of question and answer instead of just wanting to be treated with some decency and respect, than a real question.
It also can get frustrating for us when people ask questions that can be found through google.
Ultimately, it came across insincere. It came across like what you wanted to do was vent about how stupid the publishing industry was, which was clearly not your intent. But for many of us who have been here for years (I've been here a decade you might notice) we have encountered far too many fly by posters who want to insult all of trade publishing and then run away. When we see similar wording and accusations in a post we can get suspicious. And then when the person seems to think for several posts that the replies from seasoned professionals aren't good enough, or that they seem to know more about publishing and how statistics work, people get even more suspicious. Eventually you noted that you saw some validity in people's posts but it took a fair bit of back and forth to get there.
So that's the answer to the question, if indeed you were asking a sincere question this time. Because again the way you phrased your question came across as more of a desire to diss people, tell them to lighten up, and mock us as if we are some sticklers to a very rigid form of question and answer instead of just wanting to be treated with some decency and respect, than a real question.
Last edited:
So I'd just like to issue a formal apology for the nature and tone of my OP and subsequent posts. I could blame it on other sources, but it's not really a good excuse. But my other main source of forum interaction is on a forum where something like my OP wouldn't make anyone bat an eye, and a rant 10x more overbearing is the norm. People insult each other all day long, but everyone knows it's completely for fun and so no one takes each other seriously.
"Did you mean that to be insulting?" "I'm not sure. You're more than welcome to if you'd like." "You're so generous. Did voices in your head tell you to say that? It would explain a lot."
And so on and so forth. So I think I let too much of my playful forum troll slip through there. And more than a little bit of anti-corporatism and general ignorance. A lot of times I read an article and believe I suddenly know everything. Hey, I'm only 21 though. How I'm writing right now is much closer to what you could expect in real life. But my question absolutely was sincere. I really was just trying to figure out why the industry seemed so amorphous and secretive, because it seems that way to me. But so does Big Pharma, Big Grocery, big this and big that.
And to be fair, I can't get Nielson Bookscan to work. And here's another cool link:
http://aksomitis.com/2016/01/warnin...s-could-seriously-impact-your-writing-income/
And once again, all we have is third party stats about Amazon, mostly ebooks sales info.
And do we actually want people to know? Maybe not!
http://alanrinzler.com/2009/05/author-alert-what-you-dont-know-about-bookscan-can-hurt-you/
Nielson Bookscan info negatively effected (affected?) this person's reputation and sales. Once the cat's out of the bag...
Again, I really didn't want to offend anyone. Modifying my forum behavior parameters as we speak... And I'd like to be a bigger, better part of the community. I've got a novel that I almost pushed to 100k words today, and when I get done with it I want to run a few chapters or pages through the critiques (once I revise it) to get an idea of what I need to do. I sought this forum out deliberately after some research.
I read at least one article, dontcha know.
"Did you mean that to be insulting?" "I'm not sure. You're more than welcome to if you'd like." "You're so generous. Did voices in your head tell you to say that? It would explain a lot."
And so on and so forth. So I think I let too much of my playful forum troll slip through there. And more than a little bit of anti-corporatism and general ignorance. A lot of times I read an article and believe I suddenly know everything. Hey, I'm only 21 though. How I'm writing right now is much closer to what you could expect in real life. But my question absolutely was sincere. I really was just trying to figure out why the industry seemed so amorphous and secretive, because it seems that way to me. But so does Big Pharma, Big Grocery, big this and big that.
And to be fair, I can't get Nielson Bookscan to work. And here's another cool link:
http://aksomitis.com/2016/01/warnin...s-could-seriously-impact-your-writing-income/
And once again, all we have is third party stats about Amazon, mostly ebooks sales info.
And do we actually want people to know? Maybe not!
http://alanrinzler.com/2009/05/author-alert-what-you-dont-know-about-bookscan-can-hurt-you/
Nielson Bookscan info negatively effected (affected?) this person's reputation and sales. Once the cat's out of the bag...
Again, I really didn't want to offend anyone. Modifying my forum behavior parameters as we speak... And I'd like to be a bigger, better part of the community. I've got a novel that I almost pushed to 100k words today, and when I get done with it I want to run a few chapters or pages through the critiques (once I revise it) to get an idea of what I need to do. I sought this forum out deliberately after some research.
I read at least one article, dontcha know.
Good grief. This thread is a mess of ridiculous claims, questions which are impossible to answer, and misunderstandings. Thanks to AW Admin for stepping in while I was sleeping.
I could go through it and do a line-by-line but I'm not sure I can spare the next few years of my life. If MisterV would like to have another go at this, a more useful idea is for him to provide us with a short list of extremely specific questions AND the reasons why he needs those specific pieces of information. We can then attempt to answer, or to explain why it's not possible or helpful to provide that information.
Do not rely on the Author Earnings Report for reliable information. All the data included is self-submitted; and the conclusions drawn from the data collected are unsafe, to say the least. If you want to learn more about why I say this, search AW for some of our previous threads about it. It's interesting, but nothing more. (And while I'm not taking a science degree I do have a masters in writing, I've worked in publishing for a while, and my son is taking a maths degree and has tutored me in all the fun statistics modules he's taken.)
Much appreciated.
I think you've probably worked this out for yourself, but that sort of behaviour won't work here. Don't even try it.
You need to buy an annual subscription to access the data it provides. You almost certainly cannot afford to do this.
My advice? Stop reading clickbait articles, and start looking to industry professionals who actually know what they're talking about.
Well done! That's a big achievement! Let me know when you post some of it into SYW and I'll try to take a look. *cracks knuckles and laughs in ominous fashion*
I could go through it and do a line-by-line but I'm not sure I can spare the next few years of my life. If MisterV would like to have another go at this, a more useful idea is for him to provide us with a short list of extremely specific questions AND the reasons why he needs those specific pieces of information. We can then attempt to answer, or to explain why it's not possible or helpful to provide that information.
Do not rely on the Author Earnings Report for reliable information. All the data included is self-submitted; and the conclusions drawn from the data collected are unsafe, to say the least. If you want to learn more about why I say this, search AW for some of our previous threads about it. It's interesting, but nothing more. (And while I'm not taking a science degree I do have a masters in writing, I've worked in publishing for a while, and my son is taking a maths degree and has tutored me in all the fun statistics modules he's taken.)
Much appreciated.
I think you've probably worked this out for yourself, but that sort of behaviour won't work here. Don't even try it.
You need to buy an annual subscription to access the data it provides. You almost certainly cannot afford to do this.
My advice? Stop reading clickbait articles, and start looking to industry professionals who actually know what they're talking about.
Well done! That's a big achievement! Let me know when you post some of it into SYW and I'll try to take a look. *cracks knuckles and laughs in ominous fashion*
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2006
- Messages
- 8,745
- Reaction score
- 3,096
- Location
- Toronto, Canada
- Website
- www.adriennekress.com
Really appreciate your last post MisterV, thank you!
Yes AW is a little different than other places on the internet. Debates definitely happen, but the tone and language here is a lot more polite and respectful than other places. It's one of the reasons I've stayed here for a decade (aside from everything I've learned and how much I just enjoy the members). This is a truly helpful place. Flawed, like everywhere, but really great. Highly moderated, full of people who are here for the right reasons, and you actually have professionals here. Not just people speculating about maybe, but people who actually have experience.
It might feel a little foreign at first, but I do think this place is worth it. It's nice to come somewhere where you feel relatively safe. Where there's a general expectation of kindness and civility. And that's not easy on a public internet forum.
So yes, welcome and I hope you stick around! And I second Old Hack - definitely stop reading click bait articles. They give you that instant sense of indignation that feels awesome in the moment, but only contribute to misinformation, anger and fear. Slow and steady wins this race, especially in publishing. Publishing is super super slow. Might as well start taking your time now .
Yes AW is a little different than other places on the internet. Debates definitely happen, but the tone and language here is a lot more polite and respectful than other places. It's one of the reasons I've stayed here for a decade (aside from everything I've learned and how much I just enjoy the members). This is a truly helpful place. Flawed, like everywhere, but really great. Highly moderated, full of people who are here for the right reasons, and you actually have professionals here. Not just people speculating about maybe, but people who actually have experience.
It might feel a little foreign at first, but I do think this place is worth it. It's nice to come somewhere where you feel relatively safe. Where there's a general expectation of kindness and civility. And that's not easy on a public internet forum.
So yes, welcome and I hope you stick around! And I second Old Hack - definitely stop reading click bait articles. They give you that instant sense of indignation that feels awesome in the moment, but only contribute to misinformation, anger and fear. Slow and steady wins this race, especially in publishing. Publishing is super super slow. Might as well start taking your time now
.
Looking for it right now.
Really appreciate your last post MisterV, thank you!
Yes AW is a little different than other places on the internet. Debates definitely happen, but the tone and language here is a lot more polite and respectful than other places. It's one of the reasons I've stayed here for a decade (aside from everything I've learned and how much I just enjoy the members). This is a truly helpful place. Flawed, like everywhere, but really great. Highly moderated, full of people who are here for the right reasons, and you actually have professionals here. Not just people speculating about maybe, but people who actually have experience.
It might feel a little foreign at first, but I do think this place is worth it. It's nice to come somewhere where you feel relatively safe. Where there's a general expectation of kindness and civility. And that's not easy on a public internet forum.
So yes, welcome and I hope you stick around! And I second Old Hack - definitely stop reading click bait articles. They give you that instant sense of indignation that feels awesome in the moment, but only contribute to misinformation, anger and fear. Slow and steady wins this race, especially in publishing. Publishing is super super slow. Might as well start taking your time now
Yes; thank you! I think we'll consider this my learning curve and hopefully eventually forget about it!
Did you see this thread, MrV? You'll like it
Awesome. Thanks!
The US Bureau of Labor Statistics has some basic stats you might find interesting:
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/media-and-communication/writers-and-authors.htm
I don't know if anyone pointed it out or not...but traditional publishing can take 3 years to figure out everything that happened 3 years ago, due to how things are shipped and reshipped and returns and on and on. It is an industry that is spread out in years for data, not an umbrella for data.
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2016
- Messages
- 92
- Reaction score
- 21
One thing I've not seen mentioned here is a company called Above the Treeline. They compile statistics and do analysis based on bookstore sales (i.e. the 'POS' mentioned a page or two back). Bookstores have to opt-in to providing their sales and returns data, but enough do that the information is meaningful to publishers and booksellers who want to see patterns, learn about trends in their geographical area vs nationwide, etc. This is a business-to-business thing - the data is not available to the public, and the stores have to pay for the service. I don't know if B & N participates - I think it is mostly smaller chains and indie stores. But I do know that Borders participated.
Another source of information that *is* often made available to the public is the Book Industry Study Group (BISG). They do major work compiling information and data, doing analysis, issuing papers about trends and patterns in the industry, etc which is often made public. They also provide data/analysis subscriptions to the industry. Their board consists of people from throughout the industry - publishers, booksellers, distributors, etc. Check out their website - it may assuage your feeling that there is deliberate secrecy (as opposed to respecting privacy when it comes to income for individual authors etc).
So while there are many, many hurdles to getting the type of timely data together for the whole industry you're looking for (as outlined throughout this discussion), there are various efforts to get meaningful info out there that can help booksellers, publishers, and authors understand what is happening in the industry. But like so many other aspects of life, particularly those of art and trend and taste, there are no easy answers...
Another source of information that *is* often made available to the public is the Book Industry Study Group (BISG). They do major work compiling information and data, doing analysis, issuing papers about trends and patterns in the industry, etc which is often made public. They also provide data/analysis subscriptions to the industry. Their board consists of people from throughout the industry - publishers, booksellers, distributors, etc. Check out their website - it may assuage your feeling that there is deliberate secrecy (as opposed to respecting privacy when it comes to income for individual authors etc).
So while there are many, many hurdles to getting the type of timely data together for the whole industry you're looking for (as outlined throughout this discussion), there are various efforts to get meaningful info out there that can help booksellers, publishers, and authors understand what is happening in the industry. But like so many other aspects of life, particularly those of art and trend and taste, there are no easy answers...
Last edited:
Are you kidding me? None of this is hard to find. Nielsen Bookscan should have all this and more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nielsen_BookScan
True. But to access that information you need a subscription, which can cost thousands of pounds a year.
I think you might have some success finding information from publishers. Publishers used to pour out large amounts of information, but they did it for their own purposes, and I don't know if the different houses had comparable information. Another source of stats might be someone who researches publishers for an investment bank. I haven't seen any such information, but it may be out there. The numbers that the publishers and investment banks would have would be more on the dollars than the units or type of book.