Westworld

Overthinking things as usual, I started wondering about how host motivations would be different from human motivations:

- Humans, unless they're suicidally despairing, try to avoid death because it is irrevocable. Hosts can die and return over and over, so fear of death does not exist in the same way.
- Humans enjoy food and react badly (psychologically as well as physically) to being deprived of it. Hosts obviously don't need food the same way we do, but they presumably have some fuel source. Do they enjoy being refueled the same way we enjoy chocolate cake? If they run low, do they get "hangry"?
- Sexual desire is a big motivation for humans. We know the hosts can have sex, but we don't know if they feel desire or pleasure from it.
- Many humans enjoy the effects of alcohol or other mind-altering drugs. These substances presumably don't work on host brains the same way they do on human brains. Maybe there are equivalent "drugs" for hosts, such as programs that provide "highs".
- As I mentioned above, parental love and protectiveness would be a useless add-on for a host. A host who felt "broody" could create new hosts, but their "offspring" would be self-sufficient from the get-go and so they would be more like turtle mothers (who lay eggs and leave) than primate parents (who provide extended care for their young).

Definitely overthinking this.....

So yeah, gotta concede to the different timelines theory. The good news is, the writers made all the plots matter to what's happening in thefinale, so my main complaint about it - that the different storylines are just much more engaging when affecting one another - was taken care of.

The ending of MIB's quest was a bit of a let-down, but then, I do like the idea of a quest leading nowhere.

Between a programmed 'mal'function which would have been narratively boring and an emergent form of artificial intelligence which I find endlessly interesting, we're now gettting a bit of both. Programmed emergence. It's a good enough concept to give us something to think about, coming from the (co-)writer who gave us the best show I've seen yet about emerging artificial intelligence (Person of Interest). I was a little disappointed by Ford's narrative at first, but it does hold up and fixes a lot of loose ends, something I've come to appreciate very much in season finales.

Maeve's final decision - I also read that as her programming cutting in. At first I thought it was part of the script she was following - the one Bernard showed her -, but if that script included scenes outside, maybe there are two scripts at odds here: One where she always returns to find her daghter (that one's from WW), and one where she breaks that programming. Which, if it's a planted code, could mean one of several things:
- There has been talk about getting intel about the inner workings of Westworld out of the park. Maeve's storyline could be an updated version of what the woodcutter did, written after that attempt failed.
- Or it could be the beginning of a FUTUREWORLD-type conspiracy. I'd like that.

robeiae said:

As to fearing death, well that's not a constant. Sure, Maeve has been allowing herself to die because she knew she'd come back. But that's no longer a certainty. Hosts only come back because the techs repair and reset them. If the hosts break free of WestWorld, that game is over.

And in that regard, here's a thought: it's not clear if the totality of a host's programming and therefore consciousness exist solely within the physical structure of the host. Is some of it on the mainframe or in the cloud? Almost seems like that has to be the case, if hosts who have been seriously damaged can be brought back. What does that mean, going forward?

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I do wonder how that changes when the Hosts have control of the park but don't know how to repair themselves. I expect there to be a battle for control of the lab, since much of the same technology can heal humans (Sylvester's neck).

Have to say, I will be really disappointed if we don't see Armistice get a Final Fantasy 7-style gun arm!

robeiae said:

I seriously think FutureWorld is on the table. I have since the beginning. Its the only way to get multiple seasons out of this, without going in circles.

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Which makes one 'furiously to think' about the host being created in Ford's Lab Under the Pleasant English Cottage. Theories have ranged from Elsie to Theresa, to Stubbs, to Ford himself.

What if Ford created his own replicant host, and will join Bernard as a new partner in the park?

Just finished all of this today. I enjoyed it overall even if it was a slow burner. Some great twists at the end, though this season has been described as a 'prologue' to the main story. Anthony Hopkins was chilling as always and compelling as Ford. I am curious as to what his intentions really are by the end of the show.

Quite a bleak version of humans in this. Not really sure if it's a true reflection but it does show one view of us as contemptuous and giving into our inhibitions. I'm sure there will be more settings in the future but there's more to see from this Western world. Let's hope we see some of the cast return. They're not afraid to kill people off!

I got my Entertainment Weekly with Westworld on the cover. Starting up again April 22. I. Am. So. READY.

ElaineA said:

I got my Entertainment Weekly with Westworld on the cover. Starting up again April 22. I. Am. So. READY.

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*Ears perk up*

Well hello, Westworld thread, I haven't seen you in a while! Maeve!

Kjbartolotta said:

*Ears perk up*

Well hello, Westworld thread, I haven't seen you in a while! Maeve!

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According to the article:

[Lee Sizemore]: The park's arrogant head writer becomes Maeve's hostage and will get a taste of what it's like to be owned.

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eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Guess I won't have to write that fanfiction then.

Trailer!

Spectacular cover of Nirvana's Heart Shaped Box, by the way.

Finally watched it. So, that's Maud in Samurai-world, right? My list of predictions continues to get more unwieldy.

Man, it's been so long since I've watched the first season. I hope we get to see more of what the world is like outside the park this time around. Season 1 felt too isolated and sometimes it was a struggle grounding myself in what real life is like.

C.Harmon said:

Man, it's been so long since I've watched the first season. I hope we get to see more of what the world is like outside the park this time around. Season 1 felt too isolated and sometimes it was a struggle grounding myself in what real life is like.

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I'm actually a little leery of too much IRL, part of what works for me is that you don't have to think to hard about what THE FUTURE (TM) actually looks like. That said, there are plenty of opportunities for awesomesauce, and I really wanna know where the park is located. I still think it's a space habitat, but I am more than likely wrong. And, because there is one aspect of WW I seem to be interested in over all others, I should state I am slightly doubtful that Maud is actually the park, I smell a bit of a fake-out.

I'm leaning toward it being located underground. I think that if we got some sense of what IRL is like for them, it might help the audience sympathize with the AI characters' need to escape the park, if we see the value of IRL. It's by no means necessary to the story though.

That look on Teddy's face as he was talking to Dolores.

I need an emoji that is a head with a tornado half in and half out of it, because basically that's my brain after the show.

And I am so so so happy about it.


(Also, Hector is back.)

robeiae said:

Well, I noted at the end of the first season that I was pretty happy with the whole thing, that I didn't really need a season two. Based on the first episode of season two, I'm going double down on that. The show is gorgeous, still. The acting is superb. And some individual scenes are quite good. But overall...I'm not interested. I can see where a lot of things are going, I think, and there could be some shocking moments, to be sure. I just can get invested in it. I'll probably watch the next episode, though. Maybe it'll change my mind.

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Heh, WW continues to be a very YMMV show for me, I tend to watch very carefully for signs of over-complexity and 'less than the sum of its parts' moment. Memories of Lost continue to haunt me, and there's the chance with season 2 it's going to go way into the weeds. But the hosts and their emerging intelligence continues to keep me interested, if the show didn't put in the time to make me empathize with them and see them in some fundamental way as 'human', I don't think I'd care very much. But since the over-complexity, to me at least, ties back to this central conceit, I continue to be hooked.

Random thoughts:

It's an island, apparently. In case the internet hasn't spoiled it for you yet.

I left season one thinking of Dolores as the 'light' robot messiah and Maeve as the 'dark' one. Which is what the show wanted me to think. But they seem to have switched paths, Maeve is showing empathy and compassion while Dolores is out killing hosts. A reviewer called back to the bit in season one about the 'Judas steer', I suspect that's important.

More sequence trickery with Bernard. I have no idea what they're going for here.

Again, Teddy looked really freaked out. Oh JMars, I'll always love you. Feel almost like he's underused, but I really like his character.

Kjbartolotta said:

Again, Teddy looked really freaked out. Oh JMars, I'll always love you. Feel almost like he's underused, but I really like his character.

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I was just saying elsewhere he still seems very fundamental--not coming to his own sentience yet, still stuck in his programming and not quite capable of processing what's happening. But it makes sense, considering he was never pulled out for those deeper conversations. He has much less input from the likes of Bernard and Ford.

The interesting thing will be to see if he comes to it from the opposite direction. Seeing what Dolores is doing, knowing it's wrong, and developing his sentience from the perspective of "moral good" by being unhappy with a fellow host's choices.

ElaineA said:

I was just saying elsewhere he still seems very fundamental--not coming to his own sentience yet, still stuck in his programming and not quite capable of processing what's happening. But it makes sense, considering he was never pulled out for those deeper conversations. He has much less input from the likes of Bernard and Ford.

The interesting thing will be to see if he comes to it from the opposite direction. Seeing what Dolores is doing, knowing it's wrong, and developing his sentience from the perspective of "moral good" by being unhappy with a fellow host's choices.

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That's very interesting, part of what fascinates me about Teddy is how limited he is, but I never quite thought about it that way. An ongoing theme seems to be that there's no one path towards sentience, which becomes important when you think about how the maze experiment is already going off the rails.

Vanity Fair quite liked season 2, but they couldn't resist this bit of snark:

I await an explanation for why Evan Rachel Wood’s Dolores is clearly wearing cream foundation and blush in her initial close-ups this season; perhaps we’ll learn that the robot women, freed from their masters, have started experimenting with lipstick feminism.

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Well, that's her damn choice then, isn't it?

Annnnnd the black hat/white hat complexity expands. I see you, William & Logan.

Now...did anyone else notice a thing that flew so under the radar it might just be me imagining it? (spoiler if you haven't watched Episode 2 yet)


The Man in Black used the host-skin healing light-wand thingy on himself after he dug the bullet out of his arm. The one Maeve used to heal Hector. IS THE MiB A HOST??

ElaineA said:

Annnnnd the black hat/white hat complexity expands. I see you, William & Logan.

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Holy crap! I doubt that's an oversight.

Now we know what the hosts are for, which I've suspected for a long time. Also, in light of Elaine's point earlier in the thread, I have at least a working theory who the other host/human hybrid it.

Loooong episode, Vox describes the episode as showing WW's 'best and worst selves', which I think is fair.