Problematic Relationships In The Media?

Lillith1991 · Jun 14, 2016

It's occured to me that we as writers and consumers of media, particularly if we want to see more characters like us, are very adept at zeroing in like a laser on problematic portayals of LGBT+ characters. The shows that kill queer people, even when a particular death may fit. But we seem, in my mind at least, less prone to pointing out problematic romance in these same shows. So I thought we could talk about problematic LGBT romances, problematic romances done well, and romances that we found not to be problematic. And hopefully this thread can act as some sort of filter system for those of us who want to watch whichever of the above romances we feel like.

That said, I'll start:

Promblematic bad?
Klaine, or Kurt Hummel and Blaine Anderson from Glee are the epitome of this. Blaine jerks Kurt's feelings around when they first meet, accuses Kurt of cheating and later cheats for a really shitty reason, and in season three Blaine attempts to force himself on Kurt while drunk and showed no sign he would've stopped if Kurt hadn't been strong enough to fight him off. On top of this, the arc the writer makes when it comes to Blaine growing enough to deserve Kurt is pathetically weak. And viewers are expected to brush off attempted rape but forever hate a closeted/formerly closeted jock who learns to love himself and apologizes profusely for forcing a kiss on Kurt and generally making his life a living hell. Attempted rape vs. forced kiss (Let's be real. Both are sexual assault.) and bullying when one doesn't show any remorse and the other clearly hates what they did? And I'm supposed to cheer on the would be rapist? Nope. Nope. I do not ship characters that grow with self-centered assholes who have a half-assed growth arc. I refuse. I'd rather ship the victim and the bully if forced to ship either relationship.

Problematic not-so-bad?
I'll get back to you on this. There's so many problematic relationships that could potentially not be that bad if handled right, and the almost never get explored in favor of outright horrible ones it seems.

Good?
Xena and Gabrielle. Not officially canon, but they clearly love each other in my opinion and are willing to both kill and die to protect each other should they need to. Nomi and Amanita from Sens8 definitely make this part of my little list. A genuine and loving relationship between a trans woman and cis pansexual Woman of Color? I'm so freaking there it isn't even funny.

BenPanced · Jun 14, 2016

I'd brought this up many, many moons ago but a prime example of a problematic relationship (being too kind there) was in Nip/Tuck. Ava, a trans woman, is also a pedophile and preys on Matt, the son of one of the MCs, both plastic surgeons. When one of the MCs has sex with her, he finds that her vaginal canal is too shallow and it's revealed her former husband, who'd done most of her original surgery and treated her more as his perfect specimen than his wife, hadn't finished this final surgery so she's bought off and leaves Matt in return. Later, near the end of the series, she claims to have adopted a baby whose face is disfigured and has come back onto the series for the MCs for them to fix. They give her several referrals and Matt gets a huge check from Ava as a wedding gift (he has a daughter now). The surgeons present the same option: we'll do the surgery if you leave Matt alone in return. During the surgery, she tries to finally break up with Matt but he won't have it. At the end, he tells his father he's leaving with his daughter because he thinks Ava would be a better mother for Jenna and the three are seen leaving together in the final episode. Of course, it's during the final season where the writers try to present Ava as a sympathetic character but having seen most of her episodes, I was throwing things at the TV.

neandermagnon · Jun 14, 2016

I think Glee is problemtic in general. I haven't watched it in a very long time. There was this female PE teacher who was very muscular and did the whole "Seargeant Major" style of teaching. The kids hated her and there was this thing where the boys didn't find her sexually attractive - fine, because of her age and the fact she's a teacher - they shouldn't and she sure as hell shouldn't expect them to. It's one thing having teenage students having a crush on a young, newly qualified teacher, but they're not going to fancy older teachers anyway. However, the plot goes that she's deeply hurt by this (why? she needs adolescent boys to crush on her for her self esteem? WTF) then it goes further into saying that she's never kissed anyone or had any kind of romantic relationship (implying that because teenage boys wouldn't fancy her no man on the planet would) and then one of the teenage boys kisses her - a pity kiss just so she knows what kissing is like. What's the WTF count at this point?? If a teacher in the UK did that he or she would be sacked, would likely go to jail and would never teach again.

There are so many toxic messages here... 1. physically strong girls and women are unattractive. You must be weak in order to get a man. 2. assertive and psychologically strong women are unattractive. You must be submissive and conform to gender norms to get a man. 3. single people are so desperate for love that they'd accept a pity kiss from an adolescent. 4. it's normal to risk your entire career for one kiss. 5. the preferences of adolescent boys are echoed by all adult men. 5. women's self-esteem depends on whether men are sexually attracted to them... and probably others if would care to list them

This particular annoys me because I've never been "gender conforming" in the way I dress and act. I used to be in a women's ice hockey team and currently play for a women's rugby team. There are plenty of large, physically strong women that I've known over the years and not met one that has had difficulty attracting someone of their preferred gender - a large number of these women that I've known are straight or bi and have not had difficulty getting male partners (so it's not a case of gay women having no difficulty while straight women struggle and bi women end up with female partners). Additionally, while I'm more into powerlifting than bodybuilding, I've known a lot of female bodybuilders and powerlifters through internet forums for weightlifting, and again, plenty of them have male partners.

Glee, by sending this message to teenage girls, is doing so much damage because it's scaring them into conforming to narrow gender roles, saying that if you don't do this you'll be lonely - which is going to impact straight young women the most because they'll be afraid they'll never get a partner because this implication is mostly about what men prefer in women. It's telling them this both in terms of how they dress and how they behave. Additionally, it's impacting the health of young women because it makes them afraid to go to the gym or do any strength-based sport in case they end up "getting bulky". I know from experience of playing women's sport and posting on weight training forums etc, straight women are much more affected by these things and are harder to recruit to sports, and that's mostly about stereotypes of strong women and the myth that they'll start to look "bulky" or whatever and stop being attractive to men. So they're missing out on the health benefits and psychological and social benefits of something they'd probably find they enjoyed if they tried it out. I could go on for hours about this subject. Strong women are sexy and plenty of straight men agree with me. 'nuff said.

Due to not having watched this programme for years, I was completely unaware of the aforementioned gay relationship storyline, but the toxicness of it does not surprise me in the least little bit.

Granted that my example isn't LGBT+ because the character in question is straight, but she's a character that goes against society's gender roles and expectations, and that whole gender confirming thing is intertwined with homophobia. It's a pretty disgraceful portrayal of a non-conforming person combined with the horrible "you don't want to touch those weights, darling, you'll get bulky and ugly" message.

Excuse the rant. I'll try to come back later and think of good or bad portrayals of relationships from fiction.

Samsonet · Jun 15, 2016

If it changes anything, that teacher you mention actually is LGBT: a trans man. And it was one of the other teachers that kissed him -- which I thought was kinda shady of the other teacher to do, even if it was well-intentioned.

A friend of mine reviewed a book recently (urban fantasy) where the main romance was between the 16-year-old teen coming to terms with her sexuality and a 20-or-so-year-old who was already out and was respected by the younger girl. My friend, a member of the QUILTBAG community, found it creepy. The author dismissed the criticisms as homophobia.

Latina Bunny · Jun 15, 2016

Huh. *tries to think* I think this is one thread I can't really contribute much to, lol, as I barely see LGBT characters in the first place, let alone LGBT characters that survive long enough to have a relationship, let alone, a problematic relationship.

I think some troublesome ones that do bother me off of the top of my head are some Japanese yaoi stuff. Some of those tend to have dubious consent, or just out-right rape, and they sometimes have the "gradually love one's rapist" plotlines. (There was really popular one that had a rape-y plot. I think it was called something like Viewfinder or something like that?) I also dislike the tiresome tropes of the tough/aggressive (top) seme and the whiny uke (bottom). It turned me off official yaoi stuff. It's just not my taste.

I tend to prefer shounen ai or shounen ai doushinji (fan-made manga) over official yaoi, instead. (Downside? I can't read Japanese, lol.) I also would rather read MxM Romances over yaoi.

Then there are some murder mystery cases where lesbian couples got killed, or one of them is a killer for various reasons, including killing off the person they were stalking or in love with, etc.

Good relationships? I would say a few ones in some Ya LGBt books, like Boy Meets Boy; Aristotle and Dante; and a few Fantasy-genre ones from Harmony Ink (Dreamspinner publishing).

Also, I thought the Kimber and Stormer were a cute lesbian couple from Jem and the Holograms. They acted like a normal couple, though they had some obstacles of being from rival music bands. (Like a starcrossed Juliet and Juliet.) They acted like a normal couple, with one asking the other to talk over coffee or whatever.

Legend of Korra had an implied fxf couple at the end. It's good, I guess. I didn't get that they were a couple in the first few seasons, though. I thought they were just good female friends, but ok, I guess. *shrugs* (I'm not good with subtlety or implied stuff, so...yeah. They seem like a cute couple. I just didn't know they were supposed to be a couple...)

Anyway, that's all I can remember. I can't really add much, unfortunately. I don't see much media with LGBT in them in the first place, and they're either celibate, murderers, or, you know, mostly dead.

It'll be interesting to watch other people's responses, though.

*bunny moves to corner*

DancingMaenid · Jun 15, 2016

One thing I find interesting is how, especially in the context of the past, unhealthy relationships seem to be treated as more normal if they're queer.

For example, the Vagina Monologues has featured a story about a very young teen girl having her sexual awaking with an older adult woman, and it seems unlikely that a story about a young girl with an older man would be presented in such a positive light.

I was reading Rubyfruit Jungle recently, which was published in 1973, and I was a little surprised that I really haven't seen anyone address the outdated views on consent and the...oddness in general. The main character pressures a woman to have sex with her, and the resisting woman is just kind of portrayed as repressed. A teenage girl thinks her mother is sexual attracted to her and is totally fine with it. A 13-year-old boy has sex with a young adult man and the only concern is whether this makes him gay or not.

Don't get me wrong--I think the novel is pretty revolutionary for its time. And I don't know that Rita Mae Brown was unaware of these issues or meant for these scenes to be read as totally normal. But it's weird to me that there's so much focus on it being a great lesbian coming of age story but so little acknowledgement of how outdated some of the attitudes in it are.

And in general, I feel like there's an implicit idea that LGBT relationships are progressive and revolutionary, so things that would be seen as skeevy in straight relationships aren't treated as negatively in queer ones. It's a weird opposite extreme from the idea that we're all dangerous perverts. Even IRL, domestic violence awareness campaigns geared toward LGBT people often seem focused on convincing people that yes, you can be abused or raped in a queer relationship.

kuwisdelu · Jun 15, 2016

bunny-gypsy said:
Legend of Korra had an implied fxf couple at the end. It's good, I guess. I didn't get that they were a couple in the first few seasons, though. I thought they were just good female friends, but ok, I guess. *shrugs* (I'm not good with subtlety or implied stuff, so...yeah. They seem like a cute couple. I just didn't know they were supposed to be a couple...)

Yeah, when I finally watched Korra, I was rather disappointed by how subtle that was. To the point of barely being there.

edutton · Jun 15, 2016

DancingMaenid said:
I feel like there's an implicit idea that LGBT relationships are progressive and revolutionary, so things that would be seen as skeevy in straight relationships aren't treated as negatively in queer ones

I remember thinking this WRT Julie Anne Peters' Keeping You A Secret. I've read two of her books and looked at a third, and they all seemed to center on problematic relationships, to a greater (Lies My Girlfriend Told Me; Keeping You A Secret) or lesser (Far From Xanadu) degree.

Lillith1991 · Jun 15, 2016

edutton said:
I remember thinking this WRT Julie Anne Peters' Keeping You A Secret. I've read two of her books and looked at a third, and they all seemed to center on problematic relationships, to a greater (Lies My Girlfriend Told Me; Keeping You A Secret) or lesser (Far From Xanadu) degree.

I don't agree that Keeping You A Secret is as problematic as people like to paint it as being. It's about a young girl just discovering her sexuality, and it depicts the co-dependence such relationships can sometimes produce, especially when on the down low like Holland and Cece are for most of the book. Fair enough that that can be said to be problematic and I don't disagree, but I think the cheating is more problematic than the F/F relationship itself. Co-dependence aside, the women act like an otherwise normal teenage couple.

Latina Bunny · Jun 15, 2016

Lillith1991 said:
Fair enough that that can be said to be problematic and I don't disagree, but I think the cheating is more problematic than the F/F relationship itself. Co-dependence aside, the women act like an otherwise normal teenage couple.

I think this is where subjectivity comes in. What one person considers "problematic", another person thinks it's reasonable, or realistic, or just less problematic than [insert other subjectively "problematic" thing here].

I would think co-dependence can be problematic for some people. I've seen some people on this very forum not have too many problems with cheating and stuff like that, or doesn't see cheating as something to be dramatic about or whatever. *shrugs*

(At least with the dead lesbian or dead LGBT lists, it's easy enough to objectively say, at the very least, "These peoples be dead, dead, dead".)

kuwisdelu · Jun 15, 2016

While unhealthy, at least things like co-dependence and cheating are basically "normal" relationship problems that potentially any couple can experience and possibly overcome.

Latina Bunny · Jun 15, 2016

kuwisdelu said:
While unhealthy, at least things like co-dependence and cheating are basically "normal" relationship problems that potentially any couple can experience and possibly overcome.

So...what's considered problematic then? Only rape, blackmail, and domestic abuse are the qualifiers?

I'm getting kind of confused about what qualifies as problematic. Is it subjective taste thing, or what's considered normal in a healthy relationship, or is it badly written romances, or is it the portrayal of the relationship, etc?

(I still hate cheating, as "normal" as it is. I can't handle it in my fiction, either, especially in any romantic/Romance stuff. That book/movie/whatever would be so dead to me.)

kuwisdelu · Jun 15, 2016

bunny-gypsy said:
So...what's considered problematic then? Only rape, blackmail, and domestic abuse are the qualifiers?

(I still hate cheating, as "normal" as it is. If I'm cheated on, there will be quite a bit of much moody drama. I can't handle it in my fiction, either, especially in any romantic/Romance stuff. That book/movie/whatever would be so dead to me.)

Given the context, I see "problematic" as being mostly about whether it emits a bad representation of the LGBTQ community. So, for example, cheating would be more problematic if it seems to send the message of "all bi people cheat" than if it's just portrayed as a normal relationship problem.

DancingMaenid · Jun 15, 2016

bunny-gypsy said:
I'm getting kind of confused about what qualifies as problematic. Is it subjective taste thing, or what's considered normal in a healthy relationship, or is it badly written romances, or is it the portrayal of the relationship, etc?

I see something as problematic when it feels like the writer or audience doesn't really grasp the implications. It's more of a portrayal and tone thing than a content thing. For example, there's nothing wrong with writing about an abusive lesbian relationship, but if it feels like they're abusive because they're lesbians or, conversely, the abuse is played-down because they're women and abuse between women isn't "real" abuse, that would be problematic.

Latina Bunny · Jun 15, 2016

kuwisdelu said:
Given the context, I see "problematic" as being mostly about whether it emits a bad representation of the LGBTQ community. So, for example, cheating would be more problematic if it seems to send the message of "all bi people cheat" than if it's just portrayed as a normal relationship problem.

DancingMaenid said:
I see something as problematic when it feels like the writer or audience doesn't really grasp the implications. It's more of a portrayal and tone thing than a content thing. For example, there's nothing wrong with writing about an abusive lesbian relationship, but if it feels like they're abusive because they're lesbians or, conversely, the abuse is played-down because they're women and abuse between women isn't "real" abuse, that would be problematic.

Ah, thank you both.

Hmm...<_< Hmm... >_>

Ack. I can't really think of any problematic at the moment, besides some killer lesbians (or killer gay males) murdering the girls (or guys for the gay males) they had an unrequited crush on, because the girls (or guys) wouldn't "love them back" or the girls went out with boys or vice versa (or anyone else but the killers) instead, in various murder mystery tv shows.

This kind of thing has happened several times, so it wasn't some strange one-off thing. I mean, I don't even watch most (serious) live-action media, but this was something I noticed in some mysteries or crime procedurals. (My family watches stuff like various CSI shows, NCIS, Bones, some British murder mysteries, The Closer, Major Crimes, Longmire, some ghost stuff like Medium and Ghost Whisperer, etc.)

Hmm.... I don't think they count, though, for the topic of this thread (problematic relationship stuff). They're not really full-fledged "relationships", per se.

Yeah, I don't really got anything. Maybe rape-y and trope-y yaoi? That's all I can think of.

Viridian · Jun 15, 2016

kuwisdelu said:
Yeah, when I finally watched Korra, I was rather disappointed by how subtle that was. To the point of barely being there.

They hold hands and go into a portal together. If I didn't know beforehand that they were a couple, I honestly would have never guessed.

Lillith1991 · Jun 16, 2016

DancingMaenid said:
I see something as problematic when it feels like the writer or audience doesn't really grasp the implications. It's more of a portrayal and tone thing than a content thing. For example, there's nothing wrong with writing about an abusive lesbian relationship, but if it feels like they're abusive because they're lesbians or, conversely, the abuse is played-down because they're women and abuse between women isn't "real" abuse, that would be problematic.

Precisely. And that's why I don't find the relationship as problematic as others might. She's written lesbian relationships that aren't problematic, and I don't feel that she was portraying the relationship in Keeping You A Secret as being perfect. Just in a manner realistic for the characters and their circumstances. And compared to the relationship between Blaine and Kurt from Glee, the girls in Keeping You A Secret is saintly imo. If the worse thing about the lesbian relationship is the co-dependence, I'll take that as opposed to a relationship were attempted rape is played as OK.

This is also consequently why I feel that the Kurt and Dave Karofsky, Kurt's bully, ship is a less problematic ship than most fans of Glee did/do. Dave does some really, really fucked up stuff to Kurt but we get to see how genuinely shitty he feels for his past actions and he tries to redeem himself in Kurt's eyes and really means it. We even see more than a flicker of remorse after he forces that kiss on Kurt, when he realizes Kurt didn't want the kiss. Giving Dave's remorse a much more consistent feel than a lot are willing to admit. That said, it's still a highly problematic relationship and they really just should've gone for their original plan and had Sam be Kurt's boyfriend. Sam wasn't perfect, but he was a genuinely decent guy for the most part.

Shadow Dragon · Jun 16, 2016

Like some others in the thread, I see a relationship as problematic when they're showing abuse to be natural or even good. For example a lot of yaoi has this issue because the seme partner (the older, more mature male of the relationship, and often times larger and stronger) often gets rather rapey towards the uke in the beginning of the relationship or even before there's an official relationship between the two. This is shown as him being passionate, and it's supposed to be sexy. Yeah, stuff like that is a problem.

On the other hand if a series/movie/whatever has a messed up relationship between two guys or two girls and shows it as a messed up relationship, I don't have an issue with that. It's just typical drama.

shivadyne · Jun 16, 2016

i bring up these two a lot, but sapphire and ruby from steven universe seem to have a happy, loving relationship. i haven't seen a lot of modern family, but mitchell and cameron seem to be a good couple as well.

Latina Bunny · Jun 16, 2016

Shadow Dragon said:
Like some others in the thread, I see a relationship as problematic when they're showing abuse to be natural or even good. For example a lot of yaoi has this issue because the seme partner (the older, more mature male of the relationship, and often times larger and stronger) often gets rather rapey towards the uke in the beginning of the relationship or even before there's an official relationship between the two. This is shown as him being passionate, and it's supposed to be sexy. Yeah, stuff like that is a problem.

Yeah, this is one of big reasons why I don't read yaoi anymore. I prefer slash fanfiction or fan-manga (doushinji?), and English MxM novels instead.

(Personal taste, too: I also prefer most shounen male characters, design- and personality-wise, too. I'm not fond of the personalities and appearances of yaoi characters. Bleh. I prefer the variety of designs and the general personalities of most shounen hero characters.)

shivadyne · Jun 16, 2016

bunny-gypsy said:
(Personal taste, too: I also prefer most shounen male characters, design- and personality-wise, too. I'm not fond of the personalities and appearances of yaoi characters. Bleh. I prefer the variety of designs and the general personalities of most shounen hero characters.)

you aren't fond of this?

blasphemy.

i totally agree by the way. there seems to be a trend with a forceful older male character involved and it's just very problematic, especially when they are portrayed as abusive towards their partner.

Latina Bunny · Jun 16, 2016

shivadyne said:
you aren't fond of this?

blasphemy.

i totally agree by the way. there seems to be a trend with a forceful older male character involved and it's just very problematic, especially when they are portrayed as abusive towards their partner.

Eww, those fingers. It's an X-Men! XD

(Is it me or do some yaoi characters have huge hands? Or sometimes tiny/giant heads or too big shoulders? Lol, brings me back memories of big-shouldered male Clamp manga characters. No, thank you. XD )

DancingMaenid · Jun 16, 2016

Shadow Dragon said:
Like some others in the thread, I see a relationship as problematic when they're showing abuse to be natural or even good. For example a lot of yaoi has this issue because the seme partner (the older, more mature male of the relationship, and often times larger and stronger) often gets rather rapey towards the uke in the beginning of the relationship or even before there's an official relationship between the two. This is shown as him being passionate, and it's supposed to be sexy. Yeah, stuff like that is a problem.

I think with media that's meant to be erotic, it's a fine line. Sometimes you get the sense that the author wasn't intending for something to come across as rapey or abusive, which is a problem. But other times, it's a fantasy and the disparity between real life and the fantasy is intentional.

Latina Bunny · Jun 16, 2016

DancingMaenid said:
I think with media that's meant to be erotic, it's a fine line. Sometimes you get the sense that the author wasn't intending for something to come across as rapey or abusive, which is a problem. But other times, it's a fantasy and the disparity between real life and the fantasy is intentional.

Yeah, I can see that. There are rape fantasies stuff out there. Even some Romances can have some non-con or dubious moments.

Still, it happens too much to the point of completely turning me off many yaoi stuff. I'm definitely not the audience for this stuff.

Rhoda Nightingale · Jun 18, 2016

Man, this thread is fascinating! Although I have to admit I don't watch Glee and don't care to, which given what's being said about it is probably a good thing.

Actually, not just one, but two of my favorite shows on TV right now feature a major character who just happens to also be a bisexual werewolf--and I wasn't even watching them initially with that in mind. (Josh Hartnett in Penny Dreadful, and Meghan Ory in Once Upon A Time, respectively.) That's a weirdly specific type to trip over twice, but I'm supremely happy I did. However, Hartnett's only experience with a dude so far has been with Dorian Gray, who is one of the slipperiest, most morally reprehensible characters on the show, but I mean, it's Dorian Gray. That's expected. And I personally, since Oscar Wilde's novel is my very favorite book, tend to be more forgiving of his actions, or at least take a different interpretation on him than most people. The thing is, their sex scene happens during the same episode when I figured out he WAS, in fact, a werewolf, so there was this whole subtextual metaphor going on with duality and giving in to your true nature and not being ashamed of it, so I took it as a positive. He's never punished for that, is what I'm saying here, and as far as I can tell (even though it's pretty clear Eva Green is the OTP for Hartnett, which I support) it's just a footnote for his character development. BUT GUYS, THEY KISSED! I was so shocked--in a good way--that the show actually went there, instead of just teasing it. It was awesome.

Dorian had a transgender girlfriend in the second season, but that's a loooooot more problematic, unfortunately. As soon as she appeared, I had a feeling she was going to die horribly before the season was over. And I was right. The writers did their best to make her seem like a decent, well-rounded character, and for a while Dorian was pretty sweet to her (by his standards, anyway). But nah, she dies horribly, and is pretty much the only queer character who gets verbally and physically abused by passersby for being who she is. There are loads of other queer characters on the show, but she's the only trans character, and that's kind of a big problem. Disappointing, considering how many other things it got right.

For Once Upon A Time, I haven't actually gotten to the f/f romance part of Ruby's character development, but I accidentally found out it was going there, and got super excited. She's one of my favorite characters anyway, so this is like an unexpected bonus. Yay! I'll report back when I get caught up so I can tell you if it's handled nicely.

@bunny: I'm glad you're liking Jem! Such a better reboot of that universe than the movie, good lord. Kimber/Stomer are adorable together. Kimber in general is just awesome--she's like the high-strung, energetic, hopeless romantic kid sister I never had. I love the variation of body types in the artwork, too. That whole comic is just awesome, and I'm antsy for the next cycle.

Problematic Relationships In The Media?

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

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Nolite timere, consilium callidum habeo!

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