Clinton vs. Trump - A Win for Society

Don · May 4, 2016

The line between civil society and the coercive political class has never been more clearly drawn.

Neither candidate even pretends to represent the cause of human rights or liberty. Instead, they unabashedly represent two flavors of authoritarianism, both domestic and international. Both Trump and Clinton agree on all public-policy essentials: the exaltation of police and the military, the drug war, protectionism, immigration, perpetual welfarism, domestic surveillance, war as a panacea for the world’s afflictions and so on.

There will always be people who will be taken in by promised blessings flowing from a strong and well-intentioned leader. You need only look at a Trump or Clinton rally to see that this is true. And it will only get worse; as government continues to fail, as it must, the chorus calling for some variant of socialism and/or fascism will only grow louder.

But that is just on the surface. With majorities now fed up with the whole top tier, it will no longer be possible to regard the presidency as a proxy for some mythical will of the nation. That illusion is long shattered.
...
Whoever wins in November, the trend of government becoming ever less trusted and popular is going to accelerate. Think of it: upon taking office, he or she immediately makes history as the most unpopular president in history, not just in the US but throughout the world. A majority of the planet will be allied against the world’s most powerful man or woman. That has to make an impression.
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Politics in the US is not unlike the last days of the Soviet experiment. Once confidence in the regime had been lost, there was nothing Mikhail Gorbachev could do to save it.

Society, on the other hand, is thriving.

Consumers have never had more choice. Communication monopolies have completely collapsed. The young generation may claim to be interested in socialism, but what they actually practice is a form of decentralized capitalism on a level no generation has ever experienced. Everything from our social networks to our continuing educational pursuits to our consumer possessions are customized down to the level of the individual mind.

Clinton vs Trump - bad for politics, good for the future of society.

And who will be the resistance? Think of everyone who has been criticizing Trump and/or Hillary in the last six months. We are talking about the whole of the educated opinion classes: left, right, and center. At long last, a large majority of the population of the United States, ruled by a deeply unpopular and constantly doubted figurehead, might be in the position to discover that all the things we love in life come to us only when we are free.

Diana Hignutt · May 4, 2016

They're not the candidates we need right now, they're the candidates we deserve...

Vince524 · May 4, 2016

Diana Hignutt said:
They're not the candidates we need right now, they're the candidates we deserve...

Bullshit. I for one didn't murder a bus full of orphans. I deserve better.

robeiae · May 4, 2016

*hands Vince a big cookie*

Vince524 · May 4, 2016

Cramp · May 4, 2016

I just don't know who to believe! Is this US presidential race important or not?!

CWatts · May 4, 2016

I call BS on this. I really hate that we have fallen so far that this may be the best argument for a candidate, but I am 100% confident that President Hillary Clinton will allow the public to protest and criticize any of her actions that they disagree with. I cannot say that of Emperor Trump.

Don · May 4, 2016

Cramp said:
I just don't know who to believe! Is this US presidential race important or not?!

That depends on whether you're a fan of an all-invasive authoritarian government or not. For people who want to be led, it's critical. For the rest of us, it's simply another sign of the implosion of Mordor on the Potomac.

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Vince524 · May 4, 2016

CWatts said:
I call BS on this. I really hate that we have fallen so far that this may be the best argument for a candidate, but I am 100% confident that President Hillary Clinton will allow the public to protest and criticize any of her actions that they disagree with. I cannot say that of Emperor Trump.

Who would criticize Trump? Nobody here, right?
Here's a little excerpt from his speech last night:

You're going to love it. AW is going to win again. We don't win anymore. We see thread after thread of nonsense. I've never seen anything like it. Such mean people. When I'm president, it's going to be great. We're going to win every one of those stupid polls Vince puts up. And there will be so much love. The PC&E people will love me. The Office Party people will love me. So much love. We're going to take care of them. We're going to start winning. There'll be so much winning, It'll be fantastic. That's my slogan. Make AW great again.

CassandraW · May 4, 2016

Vince524 said:
Who would criticize Trump? Nobody here, right?
Here's a little excerpt from his speech last night:

Let Trump do his worst. The poetry forum and the comedy cabaret will never surrender.

Vince524 · May 4, 2016

CassandraW said:
Let Trump do his worst. The poetry forum and the comedy cabaret will never surrender.

He could join. What would you do then?

robeiae · May 4, 2016

CassandraW said:
Let Trump do his worst. The poetry forum and the comedy cabaret will never surrender.

Let your armies be the rocks and the trees and the birds in the sky.

Amadan · May 4, 2016

CassandraW said:
Let Trump do his worst. The poetry forum and the comedy cabaret will never surrender.

He'll build a wall around it and make you pay for it.

Jcomp · May 4, 2016

CWatts said:
I call BS on this. I really hate that we have fallen so far that this may be the best argument for a candidate, but I am 100% confident that President Hillary Clinton will allow the public to protest and criticize any of her actions that they disagree with. I cannot say that of Emperor Trump.

If nothing else, her voiced ideas are markedly less utterly insane than Trump's, on the whole.

Aside from that, the "it's just two rich people who don't really care about us" narrative isn't anything new. You only have to go back to Bush and Kerry for its most recent frequent usage in a campaign.

Also this...

Everything from our social networks to our continuing educational pursuits to our consumer possessions are customized down to the level of the individual mind.

...well, it's certainly an optimistic outlook.

robeiae · May 4, 2016

Jcomp said:
Aside from that, the "it's just two rich people who don't really care about us" narrative isn't anything new. You only have to go back to Bush and Kerry for its most recent frequent usage in a campaign.

That's true. Though I will say that these two rich people--Trump and Clinton--are both more impressed with themselves for being rich than many other rich pols, imo at any rate.

CassandraW · May 4, 2016

Vince524 said:
He could join. What would you do then?

robeiae said:
Let your armies be the rocks and the trees and the birds in the sky.

Amadan said:
He'll build a wall around it and make you pay for it.

I shall crouch behind my Trump-built wall, construct trebuchets from the trees, and hurl rocks and farm animals at him while the birds crap upon his fuzzy orange head.

Also, I shall compose an epic poem about the battle.

rugcat · May 4, 2016

Don said:
That depends on whether you're a fan of an all-invasive authoritarian government or not. For people who want to be led, it's critical. For the rest of us, it's simply another sign of the implosion of Mordor on the Potomac.

That depends on whether you buy the over-the-top doomsday world view Libertarians have been preaching forever.

Apparently, most people are blind to the truth, and want only to be willingly led by authoritarian evil doers. Only libertarians ("the rest of us") have the intellectual capacity and moral fortitude to understand the truth and reveal it to the poor benighted masses.

meowzbark · May 4, 2016

There's speculation that my state of Arizona might become a swing state this election, especially since Trump has pissed off the growing population of Hispanics. It would be interested to see that if enough Hispanics showed up at the poll that not only might we elect a democratic president but that our Republican dominated politics might suddenly become blue as well. Our Republican governor has been able to pass most of his laws with little gridlock thus far.

And Joe Arpaio might (finally) get booted from office this election. Then again, the support of Trump is strong here.

Lyv · May 4, 2016

meowzbark said:
And Joe Arpaio might (finally) get booted from office this election.

Wow, I am hopeful for you!

Vince524 · May 4, 2016

rugcat said:
That depends on whether you buy the over-the-top doomsday world view Libertarians have been preaching forever.

Apparently, most people are blind to the truth, and want only to be willingly led by authoritarian evil doers. Only libertarians ("the rest of us") have the intellectual capacity and moral fortitude to understand the truth and reveal it to the poor benighted masses.

Isn't that true of pretty much every political persuasion?

When I look at my facebook feed, where I stay pretty quiet on political issues, I've seen talk like that from Bernie fans, Hillary fans, Trump fans, Cruz fans, Jill Stein fans, Elizabeth Warren fans, etc, etc, so forth and so on. If you support X and/or don't support Y it's because you're blind and don't care about Blah, Blah, Blah.

CassandraW · May 4, 2016

Vince524 said:
Isn't that true of pretty much every political persuasion?

When I look at my facebook feed, where I stay pretty quiet on political issues, I've seen talk like that from Bernie fans, Hillary fans, Trump fans, Cruz fans, Jill Stein fans, Elizabeth Warren fans, etc, etc, so forth and so on. If you support X and/or don't support Y it's because you're blind and don't care about Blah, Blah, Blah.

I agree with this. We're just less likely to see the attitude when we agree with the political slant.

Amadan · May 4, 2016

Vince524 said:
Isn't that true of pretty much every political persuasion?

When I look at my facebook feed, where I stay pretty quiet on political issues, I've seen talk like that from Bernie fans, Hillary fans, Trump fans, Cruz fans, Jill Stein fans, Elizabeth Warren fans, etc, etc, so forth and so on. If you support X and/or don't support Y it's because you're blind and don't care about Blah, Blah, Blah.

No. Libertarians are different from fans of particular candidates. "I'm right and you're wrong" is of course typical rhetoric coming from any camp, but the entire libertarian ideology is based on them being right and everyone else being wrong/evil/stupid.

robeiae · May 4, 2016

Hard-core libertarians are a finicky lot. They're just as likely to come down on other self-professed libertarians for being completely wrong as they are on any other group.

Beyond that, hard-core progressives are not much different these days, in my experience. There's less in-group splintering, to be sure, but everyone else is most definitely evil, uncaring, and/or on the wrong side of history.

Vince524 · May 4, 2016

Amadan said:
No. Libertarians are different from fans of particular candidates. "I'm right and you're wrong" is of course typical rhetoric coming from any camp, but the entire libertarian ideology is based on them being right and everyone else being wrong/evil/stupid.

I've got a friend from high school. So far left, Bernie is a right winger to him. If you support him, or God Forbid Hillary. (And don't get him started on the GOP) you support endless, mindless war and destruction. He refers to her as Killary.

The trend I've seen on Facebook is, "Let me know if you support Trump so I can defriend you."

The Trumpians of course think that only Trump tells the truth.

I see the 'If you're not in this camp, you might as well be voting for Hitler.' from pretty much every circle.

Sorry, I don't see that libertarians are anything special here. Maybe some are, here or there. We always notice the more nuttier ones, but still.

Amadan · May 4, 2016

robeiae said:
Hard-core libertarians are a finicky lot. They're just as likely to come down on other self-professed libertarians for being completely wrong as they are on any other group.

Beyond that, hard-core progressives are not much different these days, in my experience. There's less in-group splintering, to be sure, but everyone else is most definitely evil, uncaring, and/or on the wrong side of history.

That's true. But "progressive" isn't really a single coherent political/economic philosophy - you can't summarize it as "The simple belief that..." and so you don't as often see people explicitly waving a "Progressive" flag and declaring that they have solved all complicated political and economic problems, if only the sheep would just listen.

Clinton vs. Trump - A Win for Society

All Living is Local

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down the rabbit hole of research...

All Living is Local

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