P.N. Elrod Editing and Critique

chompers

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What the hell do you know about it?

Have you published anything in the last twenty years?

Are you even clued in enough to current publishing to know Elrod is an Editor for Big 5 publishers?

You, on the other hand, don't know the difference between a critique and a submission.

The point of a critique is educational. It's to help you learn to write better. It's not a rehearsal for submission.

You're going to go sit in the corner until I feel like you can post without being full of it.

I love you.

Although I'm going to pout here in my because last time I dared say anything remotely negative about He Who Shall Not Be Named, my posts were deleted.
 

AW Admin

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Okay, I am much more impressed after reading her guidelines.

I am cynical by nature. I've worked in and around publishing and writers a very long time.

Elrod is someone I trust. She's perfectly willing to turn down work she doesn't feel she can do, whether because of the nature of the text, or her time constraints.

I've seen five or six critiques. I know pro authors she's edited.

And while she is absolutely honest, she is compassionate in her honesty.

She knows she's telling hard truths sometimes, but she tells them as kindly as she can.
 

Filigree

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That's a good thing. It's her time and expertise on the line, and she's not there for ego-boosting. Nor will she take on something that plainly isn't ready. I can respect the hell out of that. The stuff I'm writing now isn't in her wheelhouse, but I'd be tempted to wait for another opening if I ever had something that did fit.

Not to belabor the point, but there is a clear separation between professional, seasoned editors like Elrod, and the kind of well-meaning but largely ineffectual 'life coach' writing mentors who are mostly in it to make a buck and build a captive audience of students. Those are the folks who make me cynical.
 

be frank

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Further, Elrod doesn't deal with first person present tense writing, specifically after she read mine :cry:.

So you're who I should blame for her dislike of present tense?

*blows Bing Z a raspberry*

Ah well *shrug* she doesn't do YA thrillers either. Pity.
 

Old Hack

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Elrod is a good writer and a perceptive editor, and anyone who uses her services will get very good value for money.

It's not necessary to use services like this, and many people argue against it. But having watched many writers develop and improve over the years, I've seen how useful such help can be. If you learn how to use the advice you've given when working on all your writing, your work will improve significantly.

If you have the money and think it might help, do it.
 

onesecondglance

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I took up Ms Elrod's services last time she was offering - that was on a "pay what you can" basis and I dug extra deep. A very useful, honest assessment that identified key traits in my writing even from a short sample.
 

Gillhoughly

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She put this up on FB the other day:
My integrity is going to send me to the poor house.


Had to NOT take on two critique jobs offered. One was repeat business, but the writer will not, in a mere two weeks, have honed his craft enough to make a 2nd crit useful. The same problems I found in the first crit will still be in the 2nd.


The other was from a writer who had several agents and editors tell him the thing that was wrong. I agreed with them. I'm not going to pick his pocket when he's already gotten the reason behind the rejections. I reluctantly refunded his payment and hope he'll read the books I mentioned. Maybe there will be a tip in my Pro's Tips jar... *sigh*

That Pro's Tips are linked to the main critique page and includes a page on why work gets rejected. There's also one there about present tense and why she's not a fan. Seems it's a business thing more than personal preference!

http://www.vampwriter.com/PROS_TIPS.htm
 

Channy

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Is the present tense (esp first person) thing an absolute no? From my impression on her site, it sounds like she doesn't like it and would prefer to read other stuff, but she would at least look at it? Though it might colour her opinion on the piece. Have there been many experiences with that? I'd really like to send her a sub for crit but I don't want to waste her time if she's not really into it.
 

Cyia

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Is the present tense (esp first person) thing an absolute no?

From the guidelines:
For all that, I'm tough about it in critiques, and the main reason is that present tense is hard to sell. I got that from my agent and a number of other editors. They shake their heads, not wanting to deal with it. Agents have a hard time selling it to editors, editors have a harder time selling it to the Suits upstairs.

and then this:

Last year, after 100s of critiques I found a really good submission. (ONE out of 100s, remember.) It had a fresh idea, a strong voice, and the writer knew how to put a sentence together. It was good enough that I sent it--without the writer's knowledge--to my agent. It was in first person present tense, but so well done that it overcame my dislike for that style.

So it's not an instant no, but it's a hard sell on critique.
 

Roxxsmom

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Well, I'm giving it a shot with the opening of a novel I've been subbing around with no joy (aside from a couple of requests that turned to no-real-feedback rejections). I've taken it off submission (aside from one open submission window where it's been languishing with little hope on my part) and am trying to decide if I want to just run through the rest of the agents on my list, or if it needs revision because my writing isn't yet up to snuff in some way, or if I should just give up on it and focus on a new project.

I figure it can't hurt to have the opening raked over the coals by a pro who has no reason to spare my feelings, and maybe I'll learn something about my craft that can be applied to other projects too.
 
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be frank

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Is the present tense (esp first person) thing an absolute no? From my impression on her site, it sounds like she doesn't like it and would prefer to read other stuff, but she would at least look at it? Though it might colour her opinion on the piece. Have there been many experiences with that? I'd really like to send her a sub for crit but I don't want to waste her time if she's not really into it.

A workaround to consider: If my (first person, present tense) MS hadn't been outside her preferred genre list, I would've considered simply rewriting the first 2500 words in past tense in order to submit it for critique. YMMV.
 

MythMonger

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A workaround to consider: If my (first person, present tense) MS hadn't been outside her preferred genre list, I would've considered simply rewriting the first 2500 words in past tense in order to submit it for critique. YMMV.

It seems to me that a change like that would waste everyone's time. Elrod indicates that it's not just her own personal preference about present tense, but a more general concern with the publishers she works with. If that's the case then the writer needs to understand how their manuscript will be read by other agents or publishers, and that won't be accomplished by changing it from present tense for Elrod only to change it back later.
 

be frank

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It seems to me that a change like that would waste everyone's time. Elrod indicates that it's not just her own personal preference about present tense, but a more general concern with the publishers she works with. If that's the case then the writer needs to understand how their manuscript will be read by other agents or publishers, and that won't be accomplished by changing it from present tense for Elrod only to change it back later.

Honestly, IMO it depends what kind of critique you're looking for. If you're looking for feedback about pacing, the hookiness of your opening chapter, pointers about mistakes you're making (etc) then I wouldn't consider it a waste of time at all. The same issues would show up in past tense as they would in present.

As for saleability -- yes, it's a concern for the publishers she works with ... but she doesn't seem to deal with a lot of YA. I've read a lot of YA over the last few years (like, a ridiculous amount), and by far the majority of books I've read have been in first person present. It's a real surprise to me when I open a YA book and it's not in first person present. So it obviously sells somewhere.

:Shrug:
 

onesecondglance

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Changing a chapter from present tense to past tense is like changing a song from minor to major key. It is not a small thing.
 

be frank

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Changing a chapter from present tense to past tense is like changing a song from minor to major key. It is not a small thing.

Gotta disagree with that comparison. Changing keys changes the fundamental mood of a piece of music. The equivalent IMO would be changing your opening chapter from a suspense to a romance, or a thriller to a caper.

As for how much a change of tense affects a piece of writing, I suspect it depends very much on the piece in question. Some could be converted far easier than others. Some would be affected far more than others.

To be clear, because maybe I wasn't the first time round, the idea to convert for critique depends entirely what you're looking to get out of the critique. If you're looking for a critique on your story, it may or may not be useful (depending on the story). OTOH, if you're looking for feedback from a pro about your writing technique, then I think it could be very useful information to have. If you have annoying quirks in your writing, or if you have 57 appearances of "that" in your first 2500 words, or if every sentence is filtered, or if your book opens with your MC waking up (no, wait, it was a dream!) chances are those flaws will show up the same whether the thing is written in past tense or present tense.
 

onesecondglance

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Gotta disagree with that comparison. Changing keys changes the fundamental mood of a piece of music.

That was the exact point I was making. Tense isn't just a grammatical thing, and if a writer simply changes the verbs to "convert" their work from present to past I'd suggest that writer hasn't really grasped the differences between them.

Annoying quirks such as those you mention can be workshopped for free right here in SYW. The pro level crits offered by Ms Elrod really deliver value at a higher level - for turning functional prose into a great story.

I say that as a very happy recipient of a crit from the last round on an excerpt that had already been through SYW and betas. I'm not saying she won't pick up on those things, because she will, and I don't want to take income away from her, but I think there is much more to get out of a crit if it's already polished to the best of your ability.
 

be frank

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*head desk*

Once more, with feeling: It depends on the story.

For the record, I don't really appreciate the intimation that I don't understand the intricacies of tense. I said nothing about simply converting verbs -- that's a hell of an assumption to make. Since I don't actually have a horse in this race, at this point I'll just respectfully agree to disagree and bow out of the discussion.
 

Roxxsmom

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Gotta disagree with that comparison. Changing keys changes the fundamental mood of a piece of music. The equivalent IMO would be changing your opening chapter from a suspense to a romance, or a thriller to a caper.

I think changing the tense from present to past has an affect on mood as well. Voice too. Why would writers (and readers) have such strongly held preferences if it were an insignificant choice?

It's your call, of course, and you might be right that whether it would work depends on the kind of feedback you hope to receive. But I'd want to know how well my tense choice was working to create the mood, voice, and feel I hope to achieve, and how well I'd executed present tense, so if I had a present-tense piece, I'd probably try to find an editor who was more comfortable working with it.
 
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James D. Macdonald

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Between drafts I've changed tense from past to present, and from present to past. I've changed stories from first to third, and from third to first. All of 'em have sold.

You choose the person, and the tense, that's best for the story.
 

mccardey

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Between drafts I've changed tense from past to present, and from present to past. I've changed stories from first to third, and from third to first. All of 'em have sold.

You choose the person, and the tense, that's best for the story.
For the story, yes, absolutely. I think Frank is saying, putting the story aside for a moment, if you want to have your writing critiqued in a more general sense etc. Since I gather the whole story isn't being offered critique.

I try not to overthink that sort of thing, myself. It just unnerves me. (Though I do love critique...)
 

CrastersBabies

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I got a critique from her when she was raising money for an operation for her dog, if I recall. And if you donated, you got a quickie critique. It was well worth it. She gave some really great suggestions.
 

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Okay, so I got another crit for my current WIP and I'm telling you it was insanely helpful. Fifty bucks is a bargain.

She spotted a key motivation problem with one of my MCs, which sadly made him look less like the absent minded professor i need him to be and more like a stone cold idiot. ALL TRUE. I've been brainstorming since I got my crit and I now have come up with a vastly superior way to open my novel. I'm seriously giddy and can't wait to dive in to a rewrite.

Anyone on the fence should bite the bullet and do it.
 

phantasy

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Gah...I really want to do this! But I'm so brittle right now, and I just got back into my writing routine, that I don't want to risk it putting me off from continuing on.

Anyone know how quickly she sends back crits?