Neolithic humans introduced red deer to the Orkney Islands by boat

Alessandra Kelley · Apr 5, 2016

https://www.theguardian.com/science...-deer-arrived-by-neolithic-ship-study-reveals

... And nobody knows where they came from.

DNA analysis of Orkney Island red deer, to everyone's surprise, shows them to be unrelated to red deer from the nearby Scottish mainland.

Nor are they particularly related to red deer in Ireland or Norway.

The Orkney and Hebrides islands were buried by glaciers during the last ice age and they are beyond deep, unswimmable waters. All of the land animals on them were introduced by humans during the Neolithic, starting about 10,000 years ago when the glaciers retreated.

Which means apparently people must have carried live red deer to the islands on boats.

Introversion · Apr 6, 2016

Huh. Did humans settle these islands? Or were these viewed as game preserves?

blacbird · Apr 6, 2016

Humans have lived on these islands for a long while. There are all manner of stone monuments and Neolithic sites throughout the region. They wouldn't have had any concept of a "game preserve" in those days, I don't think.

caw

Brightdreamer · Apr 6, 2016

blacbird said:
Humans have lived on these islands for a long while. There are all manner of stone monuments and Neolithic sites throughout the region. They wouldn't have had any concept of a "game preserve" in those days, I don't think.

caw

Well, they might have had a concept of "place other predators or tribes won't compete for a valued food source," if the Orkneys were free of such predators. Not a game preserve in the modern sense, more of a living larder for personal exploitation.

Albedo · Apr 6, 2016

Good ol' us, ruining fragile ecosystems since at least the neolithic.

Introversion · Apr 6, 2016

Brightdreamer said:
Not a game preserve in the modern sense, more of a living larder for personal exploitation.

Right; sorry, sloppy writing on my part. That's what I was thinking: "We'll just keep these here for later Nom Noms."

- - - Updated - - -

Albedo said:
Good ol' us, ruining fragile ecosystems since at least the neolithic.

The good news is, we're better at it now. :tongue

morngnstar · Apr 6, 2016

Introversion said:
Right; sorry, sloppy writing on my part. That's what I was thinking: "We'll just keep these here for later Nom Noms."

Right. Not unlike what Age of Exploration sailors did with goats. They just let them loose on deserted islands, figuring on a future journey they'd stop off for some goat meat.

It could be, the islands' climate was unfavorable for humans, but suitable for red deer. So don't live there, just put some deer there and row out every summer or two and bring home a haul of venison and leather.

Just a speculation. For all I know the evidence is that people lived there at the same time as the deer.

I still don't have a guess as to why they should be unrelated to the nearest populations of deer. Could be that they were introduced from Britain to the Orkneys, then wiped out in Britain and Scandinavia, then Scandinavia and Britain got their populations restocked from the continent at a later date.

King Neptune · Apr 6, 2016

I think that article shows poor logic. Deer are known to swim, and at some point water surrounding the Orkneys was not very wide, because sea level was lower. Sea level rose sometime around 8,000 and again around 4000 BCE. http://www.scottishheritagehub.com/content/34-relative-sea-level-changes-during-last-15000-years That article mentions 30 meters, but there is more widespread evidence of rises totaling about 300 feet (almost 100 meters). The deer probably could have seen the islands across the water at some time, and some foolish ones decided to take the plunge, or maybe they had encouragement from predators. It is interesting that they are not closely related to nearby deer, but 10,000 years ago animals were wandering all around, and genetic drift can take place fairly quickly in isolated groups.

I wouldn't deduce that humans hauled them over there in boats, unless I went back in a time machine and watched.

Alessandra Kelley · Apr 6, 2016

King Neptune said:
I think that article shows poor logic. Deer are known to swim, and at some point water surrounding the Orkneys was not very wide, because sea level was lower. Sea level rose sometime around 8,000 and again around 4000 BCE. http://www.scottishheritagehub.com/content/34-relative-sea-level-changes-during-last-15000-years That article mentions 30 meters, but there is more widespread evidence of rises totaling about 300 feet (almost 100 meters). The deer probably could have seen the islands across the water at some time, and some foolish ones decided to take the plunge, or maybe they had encouragement from predators. It is interesting that they are not closely related to nearby deer, but 10,000 years ago animals were wandering all around, and genetic drift can take place fairly quickly in isolated groups.

I wouldn't deduce that humans hauled them over there in boats, unless I went back in a time machine and watched.

The DNA really casts doubt on that theory. They tested DNA from fossil samples as well as current deer populations.

The Orkney Island red deer have a fairly high genetic diversity, implying that a relatively large number of individual deer were imported.

And some of those islands are 16-25km apart. No deer can swim that.

The original study, which goes into fascinating detail, is here: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/283/1828/20160095

A sample:

Unexpectedly, our data showed that outer island ancient Scottish red deer were unlikely to have originated from mainland Scotland. We found no shared haplotypes between the ancient outer isle and Inner Hebridean/mainland deer, and higher genetic diversity in the former, relative to the latter, with Mesolithic Inner Hebridean/mainland Scotland deer having the second-lowest genetic diversity of any sample grouping. In addition, very strong genetic differentiation between both the Outer Hebrides versus Inner Hebrides and mainland, and Orkney versus the Inner Hebrides and mainland, was found, implying a lack of gene flow between these regions. It therefore seems likely that the Outer Hebrides and Orkney deer that appeared in the Neolithic were not colonized by Scottish Mesolithic mainland or Inner Hebridean deer, but instead from a location that has not previously been considered.

King Neptune · Apr 6, 2016

Alessandra Kelley said:
The DNA really casts doubt on that theory. They tested DNA from fossil samples as well as current deer populations.

The Orkney Island red deer have a fairly high genetic diversity, implying that a relatively large number of individual deer were imported.

And some of those islands are 16-25km apart. No deer can swim that.

The original study, which goes into fascinating detail, is here: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/283/1828/20160095

A sample:

I'll read the original paper later, but genetic drift can make two similar populations very different after several generations, and there have been many generations since then. The part that I don't know about is how far apart were the islands when sea evel was 300 feet lower.

AW Admin · Apr 6, 2016

blacbird said:
Humans have lived on these islands for a long while. There are all manner of stone monuments and Neolithic sites throughout the region. They wouldn't have had any concept of a "game preserve" in those days, I don't think.

caw

They did however, understand seasonal restrictions, based on their used of fish weirs, so it's not out of the question that they would have had restricted areas, perhaps protecting the animals for breeding or for hunting by particular social groups.

King Neptune · Apr 6, 2016

This should give some idea of how much closer the islands were in earlier periods.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2XCM3YHzB0
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/y2XCM3YHzB0/maxresdefault.jpg
http://www.iceagenow.com/Sea_Level_During_Last_Ice_Age.htm
http://education.nationalgeographic.org/maps/doggerland/

I wonder if the deer on the outer islands might have been a remnant population left over from those that lived in Doggerland. As I understand it, A large part of Doggerland was ice free at least in the Summer, and there were animals living there.

Filigree · Apr 6, 2016

I suspect they are Doggerland relics. Deer can be domesticated, but I'm trying to imagine all those sharp hooves in leather boats.

blacbird · Apr 6, 2016

Alessandra Kelley said:
The Orkney Island red deer have a fairly high genetic diversity, implying that a relatively large number of individual deer were imported.

Here I question the logic a bit. If the Orkney deer were brought by humans from some unknown region or locality, wouldn't it be more likely they'd have a limited genetic diversity?

caw

jjdebenedictis · Apr 6, 2016

Alessandra Kelley said:
Which means apparently people must have carried live red deer to the islands on boats.

Baby deer, I hope. Weaned but not large or rebellious yet.

It's astonishing they aren't related to the nearby deer populations, though. Maybe a species that has since gone extinct (elsewhere)?

King Neptune · Apr 6, 2016

Filigree said:
I suspect they are Doggerland relics. Deer can be domesticated, but I'm trying to imagine all those sharp hooves in leather boats.

Yes, those sharp hooves and impatient personalities were two of the things that got me wondering. I don’t know how large boats were 5 to 7,000 years ago, but I wouldn’t want to try to carry deer in a small boat.

blacbird · Apr 7, 2016

Where is Giorgio Tsoukalos when we need a good explanation?

caw

roseangel · Apr 8, 2016

blacbird said:
Where is Giorgio Tsoukalos when we need a good explanation?

caw

Lemme know if this is too big and I'll re-size it, am on my phone and it looks fine. . .

Neolithic humans introduced red deer to the Orkney Islands by boat

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!

blacbird

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

Albedo

Alex

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!

morngnstar

King Neptune

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

King Neptune

AW Admin

King Neptune

Filigree

Mildly Disturbing

blacbird

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar

King Neptune

blacbird

roseangel

Crazy Young Cat Lady