An historian's opinion of Fantasy timeline tropes

benbenberi said:

Please elaborate.

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The classic example (which has already been discussed in the thread) is LoTR. People talk about it as an example of cultural and technological stasis over thousands of years but if you read the text that's not the case. Middle Earth has developed functioning democracy in the Shire as well as the steam engine in Mordor. In fact, Tolkien shows multiple cultures changing over time.

It undermines the argument when the example someone uses of a fantasy being unrealistic because it didn't develop things like democracy and the steam engine actually includes both. You can't trust their ability to recognize the things they say aren't present.

One fictional world that deals with an unchanging culture is the "Children Of The Plains" sequence by Jean M Auel - she was basing her writing, apparently, on studies being published at the time which theorised a very different Neanderthal culture from that which we theorise today. Her Neanderthals cannot change. It's the way their brain works. They have huge amounts of what you could call race memory but the pay-off is that they don't change. Men perform male ritualistic duties, women perform female duties, in the same manner as their ancestors. If I recall correctly, the theory that this might be how their memories worked (which she ran with) came with the idea that they died out during the last Ice Age because Homo Sapiens could adapt to the changing environment, and they couldn't.

There was a steam engine in Mordor?

I remember an amusingly anachronistic simile when the dragon firework roared over the hobbits' heads like an express train in Chapter 1...but I don't remember a steam engine.

The Black Prince said:

There was a steam engine in Mordor?

I remember an amusingly anachronistic simile when the dragon firework roared over the hobbits' heads like an express train in Chapter 1...but I don't remember a steam engine.

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It was in the Shire at the end of the LotR, IIRC. It was showing ugly signs of the early Industrial Revolution, heralding the world entering the Age of Man.
Lots of fantasy includes settings that are relatively static, or so they seem because they are set in medieval times before progress began to accelerate. But even some of those do show signs that the times they were a-changing.

I've also read a good deal of fantasy with settings that include the seeds of change. A good many where schools where magic is taught, for instance. One series had a setting where an empire had fallen because it was stifling change because of its rigidity and resistance to the introduction of new kinds of magic, and showed a world where progress was undergoing.

Mercedes Lackey and other authors have written novels which take place in early industrial times, most notably her Elemental Masters series. Steampunk novels are a similar subgenre, often where magic enables the technology.

So I'd disagree a bit that too much of fantasy deals with static societies. A good deal does, but there are too many exceptions to state that as a general rule.

Why might a society be static for a long time? Rather than the author just being too lazy to think about change and its opposite?

Wen Spencer's Elfhome series gives one answer. The books take place on a world ruled by elves. Being immortal they are never in a hurry, and by the time they become adult (after a century) they've settled into steel-tough habits. Much of the tension in the books is between humans and the elves. More comes from young elves who feel stifled by the presence of elders who have mastered their specialties, and who won't die off.

I always wondered about Elves and their birthrate. Do they use birth control? Or just have sex when someone dies?

On the other hand, what do they DO all day, since they're immortal and don't have to worry about time passing?

Cobalt Jade said:

I always wondered about Elves and their birthrate. Do they use birth control? Or just have sex when someone dies?

On the other hand, what do they DO all day, since they're immortal and don't have to worry about time passing?

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Tolkien's elves were pretty chaste, IIRC. Wasn't there quite a scandal in the Simarillion just because an elf remarried after his wife's death? Other than that, who knows? Beings with longer lifespans have slower birthrates, so that's always been my theory. Or, y'know, magic.

Laer Carroll said:

Why might a society be static for a long time? Rather than the author just being too lazy to think about change and its opposite?

Wen Spencer's Elfhome series gives one answer. The books take place on a world ruled by elves. Being immortal they are never in a hurry, and by the time they become adult (after a century) they've settled into steel-tough habits. Much of the tension in the books is between humans and the elves. More comes from young elves who feel stifled by the presence of elders who have mastered their specialties, and who won't die off.

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Why would young elves expect elder (immortal) elves to die off?

Isn't the point of immortality not dying off? That would surely mean it would be hard-wired into their race-memory/genes/culture that death doesn't happen so don't expect the elders to croak.

Mind you, I'm no elf-anthropologist so I bow to the greater wisdom of others.

Tolkien's initial version of the Numenor story had some... interesting implications:

"The teaching of Sauron has led to the invention of ships of metal that traverse the seas without sails, but which are hideous in the eyes of those who have not abandoned or forgotten Tol Eressea; to the building of grim fortresses and unlovely towers; and to missiles that pass with a noise like thunder to strike their targets many miles away."
(History of Middle-earth 5)



“Our ships go now without the wind, and many are made of metal that sheareth rocks, and they sink not in calm or storm; but they are no longer fair to look upon. But our shields are impenetrable, our swords cannot be withstood, our darts are like thunder and pass over leagues unerring.”


Steampunk Numenor!