Plot-in 2015

Sage · Oct 10, 2015

As NaNo approaches, do you have any sticking points that you could use help with? Ask them here and see if anyone can help.

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My biggest point of indecision is the length of time that my story will take place. Because I will be writing a serial, one story every day of NaNo, I'm tempted to make the length of time my MC has to find all the possessed people (50 of them is what's planned) include the number 30. 30 days makes the most sense (a month), but I fear it won't be enough time for my characters to grow in skill and relationships. Granted, many a YA has relationships forged in much less than a month. There are other reasons to have a longer time span. I have a running gag that one boy-crazy character always ends up dating (flirting with? being pursued by?) a possessed boy. That's a little harder to show when every story is just one day away from the previous one. It also means that I have to have each story take place within one day, so no conflicts can take place over several days. Finally, it means I can't just skip aspects of training or relationship growth or even have the readers trust that some things may have happened between the story. Cramming 30 "episodes" into 30 days gives me little room to maneuver.

There are some things I like about it. The NaNo metaphor is nice, especially with 50 spirits to find. If I set it during November, I can reference what's going on (weather and the like) as it's happening. And it's a natural choice for using the number 30. It'll be easy to keep track of how far into the quest my characters are at all times and make sure that I'm not speeding up the time frame too much.

30 weeks could be helpful. An episode could be less than a day or up to a week and it gives me plenty of time to assume the characters were training in between. It's also pretty close to the length of a school year. But I'm not sure why the magical artifact would choose such a time frame.

A friend suggested a year and a day because it's a common time frame for magical things, but that seems a little long to me. I know I tend to plot in smaller time frames, though I've had good success in small time frames with jumps in time...but nothing I've done has been episodic like this.

Any suggestions for a natural time frame or votes for one of the above?

VeryBigBeard · Oct 10, 2015

I kinda like the idea of a story each day, both as a way of approaching NaNo and a way of framing the narrative. I can definitely think of a few friendships I've forged in less than 24h. If you have enough going on in that day it wouldn't be too hard to find a couple of key tension points to bring two or more characters together. After all, it's the tension that's going to make the characters develop, not so much the timeline.

One thing you could look at doing if you're having trouble with the narrative arc is take a couple of secondary plots and then slowly weave them together. So you have an A plot that occurs on Day 1, 3, 7,8, etc. and a B plot for the other days. That way you can keep strands from each going (and playing off each other) while developing multiple micro and macro conflicts. So each episode has its own arc but it doesn't always demand to be concluded. Basically structure it like a TV show.

Actually, the show 24 did this as it's schtick. The schtick may have been the only thing it had going for it, unless you like Kiefer Sutherland and anti-terrorism legislation, but the writing was solid enough.

Even if you stuck to one plot for scope reasons, I think I could handle having a day where I'm told what happened between 8am and 9am because we spend that time with someone else or because it's backstory. As with anything, show me the important stuff happening and fill me in on the kid's ride to school.

Good luck with this, BTW. Fantastic idea.

Esmae Tyler · Oct 10, 2015

I like the serial idea, though a whole 'story' a day in November is ambitious!

My initial response to your inclusion of 30 was to wonder why you didn't go with 30 possessed spirits that needed to be rounded up. That would be the easiest division of labor and each story could take exactly as long as you needed to properly resolve it, while still leaving room for the passage of time and character development.

If you're set on 50 spirits, then I'd vote for the year and a day time slot, if only because it is kind of the default magic item/curse timer. It's a bit poetic, and gives you all the benefits of the 30 weeks block plus wiggle room. It would make sense to me that some collections would be easier than others (hard at the beginning, easier in the middle, hard again at the end after the possessed figure out what's going on and band together to keep from getting rounded up), plus you'll clearly have to have some stories where 2 or 3 get caught at once, to fit your 50 into your 30.

Good luck!

JetFueledCar · Oct 10, 2015

90 days? Three days per story? About two days a spirit? Or year and a day, I like that one quite a bit.

My own problem (can I ask for help if I'm not doing it for NaNo? Pleas? I've been struggling for like two months with it) is that my story has a bit of a backward structure. The perceived "Big Bad" is defeated at the first reversal, because that's not actually the Big Bad. But I need my heroes to think it's over for at least a few chapters... while still ramping up the tension for the reader.

Important notes: It's a Chosen One story turned on its head (the Chosen One said no, his brother said yes, and the prophecy that did the choosing is from a questionable source and is not a legit prophecy at all; the Big Bad is the seer who gave the prophecy, who will do anything to make sure it comes true). It's a new adult urban fantasy. The seer is turning herself into a goddess, basically, by sucking the life from genius loci and such magical forces. Her plan is for Nathan (the Chosen One who said no) to defeat her, thus turning him into a legend. Nathan wants nothing to do with heroism or prophecies or anything else that might make him important. His greatest goal in life is to be left alone. His brother Danny, who took his place as Chosen One, is the one who's gung-ho for being a hero.

Sage · Oct 10, 2015

Esmae Tyler said:
My initial response to your inclusion of 30 was to wonder why you didn't go with 30 possessed spirits that needed to be rounded up. That would be the easiest division of labor and each story could take exactly as long as you needed to properly resolve it, while still leaving room for the passage of time and character development.

I initially went for 50 spirits, 30 days to match with the 50K in 30 days of NaNo (and an inner joke when the science-oriented character says, "That's just 1.667 spirits a day," just as a wink to NaNoWriMos). It doesn't have to be 50 by any means, but I thought it was a nice round number that I could see contained within the box, not too many above the number of stories I was writing that if I wanted to reference some that weren't shown, I could do that (though that's more realistic with a longer time frame).

I do want a deadline, no matter what it is or how many spirits there are. I could do 30 spirits, but I'll still have to answer the deadline question. The premise is that if she doesn't make the deadline, they're no longer contained to be near the box and are free to wreak havoc around the world. For now they're stuck (and easier to find). It also matches with her

My plan is that not every single story will include the vanquishing of a spirit and some may contain multiple spirits, especially as she gets better at taking them out (and gains more power from that). Most stories will be about dealing with the havoc created by the spirits before they're vanquished, and a couple may be about the aftermath or the characters' personal lives while the havoc is taking place. Since each is a short story, there's a challenge to make each a little different, and not all "find the spirit, vanquish the spirit."

You guys can see why I'm torn between the 30 days = 30 days and the freedom of the longer timeframe, I see

JetFueledCar said:
My own problem (can I ask for help if I'm not doing it for NaNo? Pleas? I've been struggling for like two months with it) is that my story has a bit of a backward structure. The perceived "Big Bad" is defeated at the first reversal, because that's not actually the Big Bad. But I need my heroes to think it's over for at least a few chapters... while still ramping up the tension for the reader.

Okay, even though this is the NaNo forum :wag:

You need to be giving hints that something else is still brewing. They don't have to think it's a bigger bad, but they should feel concern for some impending conflict. It will feel smaller than what they just faced, but lead to the real Big Bad. I think a lot of shows use the midseason to do such a thing. Vanquish the season's Little Bad only to find out it was a precursor to the Big Bad. (Or maybe I just watch too much Buffy, the creator of the term "Big Bad").

JetFueledCar · Oct 10, 2015

Sage said:
Okay, even though this is the NaNo forum

I know but the Brainstorming Sandbox is scary.

~~I got my start with NaNo, I still appreciate it, I just gave up on a book every month. That counts, right?~~

fergrex · Oct 10, 2015

Sage said:
My plan is that not every single story will include the vanquishing of a spirit and some may contain multiple spirits, especially as she gets better at taking them out (and gains more power from that).

That makes sense. Then some of your stories could be twin spirits or three sisters sharing an eyeball and a cauldron or lost roman squad. Gives you a bit more flexibility to make the stories unique.

JetFueledCar · Oct 10, 2015

fergrex said:
That makes sense. Then some of your stories could be twin spirits or three sisters sharing an eyeball and a cauldron or lost roman squad. Gives you a bit more flexibility to make the stories unique.

PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE THE THREE WOMEN AND A CAULDRON AND/OR THE THREE WOMEN SHARING AN EYE AND A TOOTH. PLEASE PLEASE PLEEEEEEEASE.

//myth fanspasm

Sage · Oct 10, 2015

The spirits possess humans, so if there are, it's part of the spirit-of-the-episode's magical attempt to wreak havoc or they just happened to choose particularly interesting humans to possess. The Roman squad in Wisconsin would definitely be a surprise :greenie

JetFueledCar · Oct 10, 2015

Sage said:
The spirits possess humans, so if there are, it's part of the spirit-of-the-episode's magical attempt to wreak havoc or they just happened to choose particularly interesting humans to possess. The Roman squad in Wisconsin would definitely be a surprise

The three women with a cauldron could be any particular group of three spirits who travel together. And there's so much subtle havoc they could wreak. You could even have them be an ongoing thing that the protag thinks is a helpful thing--the three women with a cauldron are known for providing answers if you ask the right question--and then they turn out to be just as dangerous as everyone else. Maybe more so.

I'll stop now.

fergrex · Oct 10, 2015

Sage said:
The spirits possess humans, so if there are, it's part of the spirit-of-the-episode's magical attempt to wreak havoc or they just happened to choose particularly interesting humans to possess. The Roman squad in Wisconsin would definitely be a surprise

Minnesota Vikings all named John Johnsson?

I've got a setting/conflict but not a character. Death of ruling Queen without heir causes crisis, only it's the late 1700s and Professor Guillotine has some fresh ideas about the royal succession. I think the revolution is in the background and my character's main arc is dealing with smaller problems. Or maybe she's a lieutenant in an artillery regiment.

Sage · Oct 10, 2015

fergrex said:
I've got a setting/conflict but not a character. Death of ruling Queen without heir causes crisis, only it's the late 1700s and Professor Guillotine has some fresh ideas about the royal succession. I think the revolution is in the background and my character's main arc is dealing with smaller problems. Or maybe she's a lieutenant in an artillery regiment.

Okay, so you have setting and you need a character. What conflict are you looking at? How do you see your character relating to the royal succession or lack thereof?

ElaineA · Oct 11, 2015

Sage, I'm not up on tropes like magical objects choosing times to appear and stuff but just a thought with respect to NaNo...if it's a year and a day, you can tie in the ticking clock to the next NaNo, make use of the October Countdown frenzy. I suppose you'd lose funny references like 1.667 demons a day, but you might give your MC more room for one or two oops moments. IDK, I can't even imagine tackling what you're doing so what do I know...

AshleyEpidemic · Oct 11, 2015

You could use times between eclipses. There are only a few a year so that could space it out without it being too fast.

Esmae Tyler · Oct 11, 2015

fergrex said:
I've got a setting/conflict but not a character. Death of ruling Queen without heir causes crisis, only it's the late 1700s and Professor Guillotine has some fresh ideas about the royal succession. I think the revolution is in the background and my character's main arc is dealing with smaller problems. Or maybe she's a lieutenant in an artillery regiment.

What about the setting do you find most interesting? What facet of the conflict holds your attention best? That might help you nail down a place to stick a character.

AshleyEpidemic said:
You could use times between eclipses. There are only a few a year so that could space it out without it being too fast.

That has some symmetry too. Or maybe you can have your spirits escape on Halloween and have to have them all back in the box before the Winter Solstice/longest night of the year. That's also cyclically important, has some spooky connotations, and abbreviates your time. Doesn't really give you that nice 30 though.

fergrex · Oct 11, 2015

Sage said:
Okay, so you have setting and you need a character. What conflict are you looking at? How do you see your character relating to the royal succession or lack thereof?

Thanks! Those are good questions. I was thinking while walking the dog and think I've got something usable.

I have a US Grant character that I've sketched before, which looks like a good fit. So the story might go something like

When the Queen dies, Alyssa T. Cooper is a middle-aged widowed charm-maker (m. Grant) with two young-adult twin children. Twenty years ago during the Folsom war, Alyssa had been a Lt in the mage corps but had become disillusioned and/or denied promotion because of insufficient connections. Against her wishes, her twins join the fight for the succession on opposite sides. They both get killed (because Disney.)

The tequila that she'd left untouched for years becomes tempting.

Her neighbor Mr D, who whittles, suggests there's a third side....

.... presumably Alyssa becomes effective in the revolution because she no longer cares about glory or idealism but just wants to end the damn fighting and get a country back in relative peace, hopefully without the aristocracy. I'm not sure the alcoholism is necessary, but it's something Grant is known for, and not unreasonable given the circumstances.

Esmae Tyler said:
What about the setting do you find most interesting? What facet of the conflict holds your attention best? That might help you nail down a place to stick a character.

Two questions, I think. Why do some revolutions succeed when so many turn out bad? Basically the question of this year's Nobel Peace Prize to Tunisia when most of the Arab Spring turned out as a failure like the French Revolution.

And secondly why would a non-heir, non chosen-one, relatively reasonable person want to have anything to do with a war of succession? Or much of epic fantasy?

Sage · Oct 12, 2015

I want to thank everyone who gave me suggestions and thoughts. I've nixed the Year and a Day timeframe for sure. I found a way to make the 30 weeks timeframe logical (it's all based on the timeframe the Pandora character feels is important, which is graduation), and my head says that this is the one to go with: 1 week per story, just like many tv series, including my source of inspiration, Buffy. My heart, however, just won't let me change my synopsis from 30 days. I'm sure my head will win out in the end, but we'll see.

JetFueledCar · Oct 12, 2015

Um.

I might. Have accidentally gotten an idea for NaNo. In the shower last night. Inspired by the music I was listening to. About a casino where the gods bet on humans. And Loki gets tossed out for not really being a god, which gives him full license to interfere with the game. Which he does. Gleefully.

But the MC is actually the bartender they're betting on. She's intimately familiar with war--I think both her brothers were KIA in the War on Terror. She's being pushed to fight against this dragon, there's no way for an inexperienced powerless human to win, blah blah blah. Naturally, this being me writing, this involves a lot of chess metaphors.

I just. Can't figure out how to turn this into a 100k novel, and it begs to be adult. If I can get this outlined, I might take another shot at NaNo--do the 100k over November and December.

CoffeeBeans · Oct 12, 2015

Sage said:
My heart, however, just won't let me change my synopsis from 30 days. I'm sure my head will win out in the end, but we'll see.

You can do thirty days, but do them wherever they fall... like "Week 5, Tuesday" so you can budget in time in the "spent all of Monday scrubbing demon blood out of the carpet..."

JetFueledCar - that's awesome. Now if some god is in deep to another one, and bet maybe a little too much on a human, maybe Loki has an interest in influencing the outcome to throw the world into chaos/get his godhood back/etc :evil

I love everything about my nano idea -- except for my deep and abiding worry that everything I'm looking forward to is character-heavy and plot-light. Oops.

All of my main characters have had their brains messed with. I'm trying to decide if the little bad (there isn't really a Big Bad so much as a "are the MCs secretly working for an evil organization?" and the answer is "sort of?" in the "do the ends justify the means?" way.) is unaware of her little bad side, or just super clever. Aware, she's way more functional/methodical considering most of them just would kill someone and call it a day. Unaware, someone has to be pulling the strings, and that means someone is pulling the strings for every single character in that role.

The entire MS is plot points I love from comic books, so I worry the story might collapse under the wight of all the angst.

JetFueledCar · Oct 12, 2015

CoffeeBeans said:
JetFueledCar - that's awesome. Now if some god is in deep to another one, and bet maybe a little too much on a human, maybe Loki has an interest in influencing the outcome to throw the world into chaos/get his godhood back/etc

OH OH OH SO MANY OPTIONS ALL OF A SUDDEN. Loki could be--or the dragon could be--oh oh oh this is good.

Fate and Luck are the two goddesses most involved. They're Forces really, like Death--not particularly gods but definitely divine. Then Guinevere (played by Zoe Saldana) gets involved in the game as well, IDK why yet.

I need a dealer. And to formalize the rules. And and and--

Okay, I'm calm.

My plan is to break this into three parts according to what "piece" my MC is at the time (chess piece--did I mention I love chess metaphors?). Each part will be about 30k long, and made up of ten 3k chapters. This will let me do a heavy structural plot of the sort that lets me write without needing to edit. Hopefully I can make it work for a long work--the longest thing I've done with this method was about 30k total, and was a fanfiction so I already knew the characters fairly intimately.

Damoclian · Oct 12, 2015

JetFueledCar said:
OH OH OH SO MANY OPTIONS ALL OF A SUDDEN. Loki could be--or the dragon could be--oh oh oh this is good.

If you write this book, JetFueledCar, if you write it, by God and all that is holy, I will read it so hard, so fast, and with such glee and adoration that you will be canonised into all the sainthoods available immediately, unanimously, and without question. You deserve a halo, my friend, and it will be yours!... Also, that isn't a threat, it's a promise

Please, just write the book, okay?

==

Now onto my plot-problems... They don't exist. Not because I'm a great writer who can plot their way out of a mouse trap unscathed, either. They don't exist the same way the water in a teapot on Mars full of Martian home-brew doesn't exist, not because there's no water on Mars, but because there's no teapot there (that made sense, right?). Similarly, there is no plot in this pantser's work. There is character and voice, and a whole bunch of super gay romance, but no Big Bad.

My current, year-in-the-making project, The Silver-Solstice, will have it's final (7th) story released this year if I play my cards right, or early next year (Self-publishing, yay!). The thing is, I'm concerned my whole story, all six novellas of it, written over the course of the last year, is entirely character driven, with the occasional betrayal for betrayal's sake, and a serial killer or two. Also, magic, lots and lots of magic throughout the whole series! BUT, no actual plot, no driving forces, no enduring Big Bads, just a big void where the antagonist(s) should be.

Literally a void, I'm calling my final book Celebrations of The Void, for crying out loud!

I don't want to spill all my guts out here, this isn't the story reviewing/critiquing forum after all, and it would involve a whole lot of spoilers just in case any o' y'all wanna read my books... I'm just hesitant to post spoilers on the internet indiscriminately, I want to make a living at this after all.

What I would like from this post and the tl;dr is: how do I finish a story with no overarching enemy? There's no one to beat, overcome, defeat, imprison, or outwit, and honestly, no romance left to have. It's the end of the world from here, and I'm not sure how to make an anticlimactic super-genocide that shatters Earth itself, well, satisfying???

Sage · Oct 12, 2015

So, other than having romance, what do you envision the MCs doing?

Also, do you know what causes the end of the world?

Final question, and it's not meant to discourage, just to make you think, why didn't the series end in the last book? What makes you think there's more story to tell?

JetFueledCar · Oct 12, 2015

Damoclian said:
If you write this book, JetFueledCar, if you write it, by God and all that is holy, I will read it so hard, so fast, and with such glee and adoration that you will be canonised into all the sainthoods available immediately, unanimously, and without question. You deserve a halo, my friend, and it will be yours!... Also, that isn't a threat, it's a promise Please, just write the book, okay?

*rocks back on heels from force of enthusiasm*

Um, thank you. Thank you much. If I can get this thing outlined to the degree I like outlining my things, it'll get written. Hopefully that process won't take more than twenty days.

It is planned to be about 90k at this point, and those 90k divided into thirty chapters. So a chapter a day... for all of November... will get it written. Now if I can sit down and crank out a chapter a day I'll be good. I haven't written that much per day since summer road trips.

Parametric · Oct 12, 2015

CoffeeBeans said:
The entire MS is plot points I love from comic books, so I worry the story might collapse under the wight of all the angst.

I like to imagine this is an actual character. Like an undead person who's very sad. The Wight of Angst.

CoffeeBeans · Oct 12, 2015

Parametric said:
I like to imagine this is an actual character. Like an undead person who's very sad. The Wight of Angst.

Obviously it is a typo, but I think I need to ask someone more artistic than myself to make me a Wight of ALL THE ANGST, so I can keep it handy during the writing...

Plot-in 2015

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Preparing for winter

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