Things you'd like to see brought back to fantasy

MikaelS

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Hi everyone,

Recently I've been thinking about an article I read some time back lamenting the direction fantasy has gone, condemning dark and graphic fantasy, and longing for the days of Tolkien. While I completely disagree, this got me thinking as to whether modern day fantasy is missing something from the past. Broadly speaking (in terms of plot, characters, tonally, creatures you miss etc.), is there something you guys would like to see brought back to fantasy?

For context (the article came under heavy fire at the time, that's how I came across it):
http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2011/02/12/the-bankrupt-nihilism-of-our-fallen-fantasists/
 

Chasing the Horizon

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Well, I'm certainly beyond done with the whole grim-dark, everything is awful, lets rape everyone because it's "historically accurate" trend. I do wish they would bring back the mysterious and powerful magic that was so often a part of the books I read as a kid. Everything seems to need a *system* these days, and I hate it. Also quests. What's wrong with quests? Oh, right, they're *fun*, and these days fantasy is supposed to be dark and serious, apparently.
 

mirandashell

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It's just fashion and it goes in circles. Sooner or later, epic high fantasy a la Tolkien will be fashionable again. And then there will be too much of that and dark fantasy will be fashionable again.


C'est la vie.
 

Roxxsmom

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Hmm, I don't want to see things rolled back to the Tolkien archetype, both because I don't think anyone can do what he did better than he did it, and because I really do want to see world building and characterization that reflects human diversity better than what we see in middle Earth. And I like more nuanced treatments of good and evil (though to be fair, he did have some gray characters).

I don't mind stories that explore the darker side of human experience, and in general, I prefer conflicts between sides where who the good and bad guys are and what is the right thing to do are less clear cut. BUT, I'd like to see more stories where the struggle to do the right thing (even if one screws up) is portrayed as laudable, even noble, not hopelessly naive and doomed to fail. I'd like to see characters who have a core of decency that isn't completely pounded out of them by the end of the book, and I'd like to see some romantic relationships work out, and some good deeds that actually go unpunished (or if the deeds are punished, they're still worth it and not used as an example of how pointless it is to try and be decent).

I'd like to see a return to fantasy worlds that aren't relentlessly sexist as well, and where female characters aren't dealing with the threat of rape ever five minutes. We can argue all day about what history was *really* like for women, and about what's realistic as per human nature, but darn it, I want to be able to escape to a world where the little guy (or gal) can make a difference--worlds that fall somewhere in the middle of the utopian to dystopian scale.

And while we're at it, some more stories where there's a good relationship between at least some humans and animals (I'm a sucker for wise beasts and empathy bonds between humans and other species--I'll admit it), or at least ones where the animals are more than just mindless props with no personalities. I'm sick of stories where the protagonist kills a dog to assist a magical process, or the horses are like motorcycles that never respond or react to the things happening around them (like just walking into an ambush) and where people get to the mountains and decide to kill and eat their mounts without batting an eye (except for the party idiot).

One thing that grimmer, darker fantasy has done is show how awful monarchies (and other systems where one person wields a disproportionate amount of power) are. You may get a really good ruler now and again, a social, military, and ethical genius. But most rulers who were good for their country also did some pretty questionable things, both to their enemies and to some of their own people (look at Queen Elizabeth I). Of course, democracies, constitutional monarchies, and representative systems of government are far from perfect too, and well-meaning revolutions have a tendency to turn dark, so it would be cool to see more fantasy that explores the alternatives. But showing that something is imperfect doesn't mean you can't also emphasize some of the good (and improvements) in people and institutions.
 
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I regret clicking on that link. If for nothing else, then for giving Breitbart one more undeserved click. In general, I think it's fine that his tastes diverge from modern grimdark. The self-congratulatory whining I could have done without.

There are aspects of fantasy I'd like to see go away, but not many I'm desperate to see come back.

Maybe if there could be a bit more innovation with the quest archetype, say, I could see enjoying a bit of a reboot. Some of the old-school sword-and-sorcery styles of magic, perhaps. That's about it off the top of my head.
 

jjdebenedictis

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Yeah, I don't want to see things come back so much as I want to see where fantasy goes next! :)
 

Dreity

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For reals. All aboard to the new frontier! Because our fantasy settings are allowed to have railroads now, dern it.

Although, I do agree with Chasing the Horizon. I like the detail and internal consistency of the magic in recent fantasy, but I generally want my magic to feel less like a "system" and more like something esoteric, wondrous, and, I dunno, magical.
 

MikaelS

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I like the detail and internal consistency of the magic in recent fantasy, but I generally want my magic to feel less like a "system" and more like something esoteric, wondrous, and, I dunno, magical.

Have you tried reading Neil Gaiman's work? I'm about halfway into American Gods, and while I'm not loving it as much as some, the magic is wondrous, mysterious, and whimsical as it comes. I'm fairly sure a lot of his other work is similar in its treatment of magic.
 

Dreity

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I loved American Gods. :) Neil Gaiman pretty much always delivers in the dark whimsy department.

It feels like contemporary fantasy has less of an issue with it than epic, secondary world fantasy. I have Theories about this, mainly about it boiling down to wibbly wobbly rules about magic being more "acceptable" in a world like ours than in a world we're already suspending a lot of disbelief about. I think we also got tired of seeing magic used as a Deus Ex Machina at the conclusion of so many older fantasy novels, and thus the desire for firmer boundaries was born.
 

RikWriter

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I didn't read the article, but I too would like to see a return to high fantasy. I have no interest whatsoever in reading George RR Martin's stuff, and the best non-urban fantasy I've read in the last ten years was Jim Butcher's Calderon series. I prefer the old style with inscrutable wizards, sword-wielding warriors, bow-shooting elves and fire-breathing dragons, and if not a clear delineation between who's good and who's bad, at least a clear knowledge of what's right and what's wrong.
 

Roxxsmom

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I'll admit that I love scientific, rules-based magic systems that have an internal consistency and logic, but that's both because I'm a scientific, analytical person in real life. And it's also because I don't want it to feel like a deus ex machina when a character with magic can use it to solve problems, and I loathe it when magic is used in one situation to solve a problem yet it's not being used in a similar situation, and the author never lets us know why.

I suppose it depends on the nature of the story and the role magic plays in it, though, and I don't know why there can't be room for both. Sometimes the only "rule" about magic that's needed is that it's capricious and unpredictable.
 

Filigree

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I've actually held off reading Sanderson (beyond Warbreaker, which was fun but totally predictable culturally), because I am so damn tired of rules-driven magical minutiae. I played D&D for years. I stopped crafting modules and playing because I got bored with it, and writing my own thing was more fun. Internal consistency is fine (the limits of sympathy in Name of the Wind, silver fuels sorcery in the Garrett, PI novels). But endless rules, nerding along at the expense of plot and character? Meh. I'll psyche myself up to reading more Sanderson someday, because I know he's not like that.
 

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It might be because I'm older, but fantasy nowadays has lost its sense of adventure. The classic stuff was rooted in a more narrative tradition, like "sit around and I'll tell you a tale." It might not be the most realistic tale, but it had all the stuff you wanted as a kid: heroes, quests, a sprawling backdrop.

Although, I do agree with Chasing the Horizon. I like the detail and internal consistency of the magic in recent fantasy, but I generally want my magic to feel less like a "system" and more like something esoteric, wondrous, and, I dunno, magical.

Gosh, this too. I really liked how scarce magic was in Tolkien. Gandalf casts only a handful of spells and the narrator never explains any of it, much less gives it anything as concrete as a name. It was all terribly mysterious, and you never really got to see how deep his pool of magic actually ran.
Even with Robert E. Howard's swords and sorcery stuff, magic was reserved mainly for those who have strayed very far down the path of darkness. Conan didn't understand any of it, except to kill the one wiggling his fingers first.
I like what D&D did for role-playing games and all, but magic systems really don't make for good storytelling.
 

Roxxsmom

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I've actually held off reading Sanderson (beyond Warbreaker, which was fun but totally predictable culturally), because I am so damn tired of rules-driven magical minutiae. I played D&D for years. I stopped crafting modules and playing because I got bored with it, and writing my own thing was more fun. Internal consistency is fine (the limits of sympathy in Name of the Wind, silver fuels sorcery in the Garrett, PI novels). But endless rules, nerding along at the expense of plot and character? Meh. I'll psyche myself up to reading more Sanderson someday, because I know he's not like that.

Well, to be fair to the grimmer, darker crowd, Joe Abercrombie's magic is pretty mysterious. It was never explained in his First Law Trilogy, and in fact the immortal mage characters were all pretty distant and inscrutable (and rather unsympathetic). The backstory was hinted at, but never explained in any detail. It did not exactly fit into the "wondrous" category, however.

And with his YA series, there's hardly any magic at all. Ancient "Elvin" artifacts that do some things that could possibly, be technological, some talking birds, and vague references to gods that may or may not be real.

The problem is, if a pov character in a story has magical talent, the writer has to describe what it feels like to use it and if they're inside the caster's head, they have to show the reader why the person is or isn't using it in a given situation. This creates both challenges and opportunities.

But rules-based magic is hardly new either. Le Guin had it in her Earthsea books (a name-based magic system), and Jack Vance's "Vancian" system was the inspiration for the rules-based system used in the old tabletop D&D games.
 
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rwm4768

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I'd like to see more fantasy that bridges the gap between classic fantasy and the grittier fantasy of today. I'd like to see a modern update on the quest fantasy (probably why I've written that one myself). I'm fine with some grit in my fantasy, but I prefer for there to be a lot of magic to go with it. For me, magic is part of what makes something fantasy. I also have a soft spot for monsters and other magical creatures.

I actually don't think that kind of fantasy has gone away. It's just not selling the most at the moment. A lot of our current female fantasy authors don't write as much in the Grimdark vein as some of the male authors. You'll also find a lot of more classic fantasy in YA, and a lot of it is quite good, even for people who read predominantly adult fantasy.

Then you have authors like Brandon Sanderson, who do the modern update on classic fantasy. You might also throw in Brent Weeks as a grittier version of this modern update. Then there are all the authors who write this kind of fantasy and self-publish it with decent levels of success.

Something else I'd like to see is The Wheel of Time done right. That is, without all the overwriting and sometimes glacial plots.
 

phantasy

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I'd like to see more unique female characters in high and epic fantasy. I have yet to fall in love and wish to be any female character, and I think it's mostly about odds. For every one female, there are about ten men and it's bloody shameful. JA does a good job with his more recent women...but I still don't love them love them. The way I love female characters from anime.
 

kuwisdelu

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There are many things I'd like to see more of in fantasy, but none of them are things that could be "brought back", because they were never common in earlier fantasy anyway.

At the top of my list would be more diverse characters and settings rather than everything being European based.
 
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Eric Long

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Well, I'm certainly beyond done with the whole grim-dark, everything is awful, lets rape everyone because it's "historically accurate" trend. I do wish they would bring back the mysterious and powerful magic that was so often a part of the books I read as a kid. Everything seems to need a *system* these days, and I hate it. Also quests. What's wrong with quests? Oh, right, they're *fun*, and these days fantasy is supposed to be dark and serious, apparently.

I knowwww right! since when does Historically accurate = Fantasy genre? I have tried pretty hard to keep real world, or anything too repeatable, events out of my story. I do this mainly because I want it to be unique and even make the reader say things to themselves, like "Oh wow, haven't ever seen that before".
 

kuwisdelu

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I knowwww right! since when does Historically accurate = Fantasy genre

It's especially silly because not only is there no reason fantasy should be "historically accurate", but also most of what people point to as "historically accurate" actually isn't.
 

Roxxsmom

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It's especially silly because not only is there no reason fantasy should be "historically accurate", but also most of what people point to as "historically accurate" actually isn't.

Agreed with both of these.

Shared cultural narrative is a different thing from history, but it's almost impossible to get many people to accept that something "everyone knows is true," or something they were taught in school, or grew up reading about, is actually a lying, pants-on-fire lie.
 
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BethS

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And while we're at it, some more stories where there's a good relationship between at least some humans and animals (I'm a sucker for wise beasts and empathy bonds between humans and other species--I'll admit it), or at least ones where the animals are more than just mindless props with no personalities.

Yes. Which is why I've done that in my own work.

I'd like to see more truly heroic characters. I don't mean someone who can slay any monster; I mean just a person who is willing to sacrifice to get the job done and because it's the right thing to do.
 
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buz

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Yeah, I don't want to see things come back so much as I want to see where fantasy goes next! :)

Yuh. There's really no need to go back to the same things; there are too many other possibilities ;)
 

Anna_Hedley

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I'd like to see a return to fantasy worlds that aren't relentlessly sexist as well, and where female characters aren't dealing with the threat of rape ever five minutes. We can argue all day about what history was *really* like for women, and about what's realistic as per human nature, but darn it, I want to be able to escape to a world where the little guy (or gal) can make a difference--worlds that fall somewhere in the middle of the utopian to dystopian scale.

I was just about to rant about this. It's one thing to have rape in a book, I can accept that as part of an awful world. But when it's every single female character in a book, or most of them, it makes me want to throw it against a wall. Like rape is a natural consequence of being female.

Ranting aside, I'd also like to see more well-meaning and sweet main characters. Not perfect, but at least good. Getting rather sick of antiheroes.
 

Latina Bunny

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I was never really into Tolkein-like worlds in the first place (outside of video games and Elfquest comics), so I don't really miss them. Same with quest stories (outside of video games and movies).

I always preferred the contemporary or paranormal fantasy worlds, and I love the more straightforward, more faster pace of writing that's prevalent nowadays, too.

I guess I miss less grindark settings (especially settings where women keep getting raped all of the time) and the more optimistic, less cynical heroes. I'm not into anti-heroes that much, which seems pretty common nowadays...
 
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