Revolvers with silencers attached.

HConn

There are certain subjects that infuriate afficianados when a writer gets a detail wrong. Titanic, The Civil War and guns.

What are good resources for gun research? I don't have a problem with guns in general, but I don't own any and have never shot one (well, except for bb guns). Where would a guy like me find reliable, easy to access info on firearms?

And please, if you're going to post links, don't post 13 of them, with little or no explanation. That kind of overload doesn't help anyone. Please post one or two of the most comprehensive, reliable and easy to use. 8o

Thanks.
 

Maryn

Not Online, as far as I can tell

Similar problem here, with even less experience--no BB guns in my background. Although I haven't done it lately, I've made concerted efforts in the past to find a reliable site about handguns (other guns would be gravy, but it's handguns mystery writers need most) and come up empty.

If anyone should come along and post sites, I agree that a line or two about what each has to offer would be terrific. A forum where the writer could ask questions? An overview or FAQ about guns? Guidelines for choosing the right gun for the right person and purpose? Information on ammunition? Instructions for the novice shooter?

So far, I've skirted needing to know more, but other writers I've talked to report they've also been unable to find what they sought online. A few have taken gun safety classes, gone to gun shows and gun shops, and visited shooting ranges. There you explain flat-out that you're a writer not so much interested in guns as in getting every detail, including the guns, right. Apparently if you ask respectfully, and if the people aren't too busy, they'll help you out.

Hope this works for you, too.

Maryn
 

rtilryarms

Re: Not Online, as far as I can tell

It is probably best to join one of the many message boards for guns and ammo. Just like this writing board.

I could send you to those dozen links or if you had a specific question one would be better than another.

For instance the revolver with a silencer would have different challenges depending on make, caliber and factory load vs custom or self load.

Go to the ezboard menu and search by keywords.

Personally, silencers belong on special automatics, for revolvers I use a potato. But not with Ruger.
 

katdad

I would be happy to help with specifics about firearms, modern ones. I have considerable experience with modern weapons and have been a gun owner all my life. I have a concealed carry permit and have carried a handgun for years.

So ask away.

Re: "silencers" on revolvers? You could put one on, but it would have little noise-reduction effect. That's because the noise also comes out of the area around the cylinder. So only autos can be effectively "silenced" (the actual term is "suppressed").

Potato? That's a new one for me. I can't even visualize it. And why not Rugers? They are essentially the same as any other revolver design.

Principal fictional firearm errors:
1- A "silencer" on a revolver. Has no effect.
2- A safety on a revolver. They don't have 'em.
3- Recoil from firing a handgun knocking the shooter onto the floor, and a corrolary, the person who's shot flying across the room.

And one I've seen a lot lately: The guy with the auto has a hostage or whatever, and he racks the slide of the gun to show he "means business" Duh! If the slide was not racked at the beginning, the gun has no shell in the chamber, and won't fire. Most people carry a gun with a shell already in the chamber. Just release the safety and pull the trigger. Or, in case of Glocks, just pull the trigger (Glocks don't have external safeties.)

Questions? Ask & I'll spew.
 

Maryn

How generous!

I'm still very early in my current WIP, but don't think I'm not going to hold you to your very generous offer when the time comes for me to put a firearm in a character's hand. (Or pocket, purse, or car.)

Thanks so much! (BTW, I asked for the aria recording from Santa, and I've been a very good girl, so...)

Maryn
 

rtilryarms

Re: How generous!

Potato's work swell. Best on auto's but are fairly effective on smaller rim fire calibers as the flash gap is very thin and can be muzzled with a towel for effective noise suppresion.

Rugers are notorious for a large flash gap, never stand next to someone shooting one.

And I am with you, on TV when the gunslinger chambers the automatic to add importance of a loaded gun and no shell pops out, it DRIVES ME CRAZY!!!
 

katdad

Re: How generous!

And I am with you, on TV when the gunslinger chambers the automatic to add importance of a loaded gun and no shell pops out, it DRIVES ME CRAZY!!!
Saw one TV movie the other day, the bad guy did this THREE TIMES in the same scene, each time, I suppose, ratcheting up his evil intent. Jeez Louise.

Never heard of using a potato as a suppressor. Heard of using a towel, etc.

Mob hits mostly do the silencing thing, but these days the hits are done splashy style with little regard for peace and quiet -- shotguns and such.

Sigh, the old days were soooo polite. ha ha
 

rtilryarms

Re: How generous!

It happens on every show

Every single solitary one


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHh
 

HConn

Re: How generous!

Thanks, all.

I picked that subject header because I'd been told it was one of the simplest mistakes people make.
 

macalicious731

Re: How generous!

I brought this up very breifly in the Novels section, but I am also in need of some gun help.

Katdad has already mentioned unfamiliarity with "historical" weapons, but I'm going to go ahead and give it another shot, especially since I don't need many details.

Basically, I've got a story set around the Industrial Revolution, so about 1890s-1900. The story doesn't follow the actual Revolution, so the specifics aren't really necessary.

What I'm really interested in knowing is if someone were to have a small handgun with a very basic make, how that gun would sound when shot, how much distance it could get, and its accuracy.

It would be a great help if someone could point me in the right direction. :)
 

katdad

Re: How generous!

A very good "generic" choice for a turn-of-the century gun is simply a Colt .32 caliber revolver.

Just say "a Colt .32 revolver" and you'll be fine.

.32 caliber is quite old, and has been around many years. It was a popular cartridge a hundred years ago, before the heavier .38 essentially supplanted it.

A Colt .32 revolver would be 6-shot, inexpensive, easy to shoot, and quite reliable. You can have the person who gets shot die or survive, depending on how you want your story to go.

A .32 isn't very powerful but it can certainly kill you. It might however not stop a large angry drunk charging man unless you hit him in the head.

But it's an excellent choice for your book, since you're not writing a techno-thriller or a 'gun' book and therefore you don't need 1000000% accuracy for firearms.

A .32 revolver would make a fair bang, not terrifically loud but you would certainly hear it if nearby. Like a big firecracker, not a "huge roar" however.

These old Colt .32 revolvers come with several barrel lengths, so you can have one with maybe a 4" barrel and it would be reasonably accurate up to 25 feet or so, even if fired by a non-expert. The bullet will carry a mile or more, like any decent firearm, but it will not have significant accuracy beyond 100 feet.

I have a book somewhere on Colt firearms and if you'll be more specific to your needs, I can look up an exact model type that will fit the bill. Otherwise "She had a Colt .32 revolver." will be okay.

Now ask me some questions about singing opera. ha ha
 

macalicious731

Re: How generous!

Katdad, sounds great! I think you've covered anything I would need, but if anything else comes to mind I'll be sure to send an inquiry your way.

I won't need the actual name of the gun listed in the novel since it's not really our timeline, but it will be a great model for research.

Thanks for the help!

Sorry, not opera questions! Yet.
 

katdad

Re: How generous!

Okay -- I happened to spot my Colt Firearms book this morning while stumbling around the living room.

Here's the absolute good stuff I recommend:

Colt 6-shot revolver
3" barrel
Caliber .38

Nitpick: Not .32 like I said earlier, and not ".38 Special" -- the .38 Special is a later design, more powerful than the "standard" .38 caliber of this old revolver. Nevertheless the .38 caliber of this revolver is quite lethal (or can be), so you can have it kill or wound the shootee. Or miss.

Details: "Colt's New Army and Navy Revolver", manufactured from 1892 through to 1907. Nearly 300,000 made.

The "Army-Navy" name didn't necessarily mean it was made for the military -- it's a slogan to boost sales, most of which were civilian.

It looks like any standard small revolver, even new ones, although the frame is more slender and less robust than modern guns. But it's essentially a "modern" gun in function, so there are no special things you need to mention about it.

It has a swing-out cylinder, same as you've seen a thousand times in cop movies, where the cop flips out the cylinder to check his full cylinder, then twitches his wrist to pop the cylinder shut.

Fires both double-action (DA) and single-action (SA). Double action means that you simply pull the trigger to fire it. Pulling the trigger cocks the hammer back, and then releases it. Bang.

So your character can go "bang, bang, bang" six times then it's "click, click, click". That is fine for someone who's not familiar with guns, because ANYONE will try to pull a trigger to fire a gun. And for DA revolvers, it works!

This means that your character can be a newbie about guns and still pick up the revolver and fire it. And the gun is also a good, reliable gun for a crook or detective to carry. Therefore this is an excellent choice for your gun in your book, since there are no goofy details or strange quirks to account for. (If you do happen to want some goofy strange firearm as a plot twist, let me know and I'll find one for you.)

Single action (SA) by the way means that you first have to manually latch the hammer back before you can fire the gun by pulling the trigger. This is the older 19th century style like the cowboy Colt Peacemaker in western stories.

Except for the caliber change, everything I said was correct. So just say "She had a Colt .38 revolver in her purse when we arrested her." or whatever, and you're home free.

Oh yeah. Be sure that this revolver doesn't have a safety. It didn't. ha ha
 

macalicious731

Re: How generous!

Katdad, that's a wonderful help! I never would have thought about flipping the cylinder, but that piece of information will definitely come in handy.

Plus, since guns are a new invention, there isn't anyone (aside from one or two "experienced" folk) who would actually be familiar with how one works.

Thanks again!
 

katdad

Re: How generous!

Plus, since guns are a new invention...

Now I understand. You're writing an alternate history "fantasy" story, not a direct & linear historic story.

Right?
 

macalicious731

Re: How generous!

Correct. :)

However, all of that info will still be exceptionally handy.
 

Jamesaritchie

Re: "silencers" on revolvers? You could put one on, but it would have little noise-reduction effect. That's because the noise also comes out of the area around the cylinder. So only autos can be effectively "silenced" (the actual term is "suppressed") .

I wish I could remember the model, but can't. Anyway, there is one French made revolver that can take a silencer. It has cylinder cones that withdraw from the chamber as the cylinder turns, then snap back into the chamber as the cylinder lines up for the next shot. These cones form a barrier that stop sound and gasses from escaping. A very good idea. They also mean a silencer will work on this particular revolver.

A potato does work moderately well with small caliber handguns, but there's always a better, and less messy, choice. Several of them, in fact.

If you can find an inline lawnmower muffler, it may work even better than an actual silencer. . .the two are really the same thing, and use the same technology. For many years, the words silencer/suppressor/muffler were interchangable. Firearm muffler was a common term.

And, of course, it's illegal to own a silencer, but perfectly legal to own a lawnmower muffler.

As for Glocks, some were made with external safeties, which can be a good bit of trivia. And as often as Glock is being sued because of accidental discharges, I wouldn't be surprised to see this change in the future.
 

rtilryarms

True.

But mufflers tend to deflect. Potato's were favored on the muzzle for the lesser resistance. The flash gap could be muzzled with any insulating material, cushion, jacket etc.

Silencers are machined to be a smooth extension of the barrel and the gun-metal is the same heavy duty gauge. Mufflers are dangerous if not perfectly aligned.

Other ways I was taught (I grew up around my friends from JM/Wave):

Small metal flashlights, doubled as koppo's but could be hollowed and stuffed. Popular in the late 60's early '70's.

I keep hearing that nothing beats a pillow.

Hit the fellow over the head with the gun and stab him for a quiet kill.

rt
 

katdad

I keep hearing that nothing beats a pillow. (or stabbing or hitting over the head)

No, guns rule. That's why they invented them. Not everyone is strong enough to smother someone or tough enough to confront the person directly.

As my dad taught me "A gun never killed anyone. It's that little thing that comes out of the barrel that does it."

Remember that even smothering yields forensic evidence. Best to stand back and do it at a distance.
 

rtilryarms

lol,

No, I meant a pillow over the gun as a silencer. And the feathers flying around from a down pillow adds a nice touch for effects
 

Jamesaritchie

But mufflers tend to deflect. Potato's were favored on the muzzle for the lesser resistance. The flash gap could be muzzled with any insulating material, cushion, jacket etc.

This problem is easy to solve. There's a simple way of securing a muffler, and of making sure it stays aligned. This is a long range setup when other means just won't do. You can't hold a pillow or a jacket over the muzzle of a handgun and hit a target that's 150 yards away.

The correct handgun for this setup isn't a semi-auto, it's a single shot handgun such as the Thompson, firing a round with a high ballistic coefficient, loaded to just below supersonic velocity.

Or even above, if the job calls for it. You can still silence the explosion of the round, and the supersonic crack of a bullet is usually mistaken for something else by the uninitiated. It's also deceptive. Since the shock wave travels along behind the bullet, witnesses can almost never tell which direction the shot came from, even if they recognize that loud snap as coming from a bullet.

There's also a simple way to use an aluminum cleaning rod as a shoulder stock for better accuracy. Shoulder stocks are also illegal, but cleaning rods are not. You can drop a cleaning rod and a lawnmower muffler in a tool box and no one will think twice about finding them there.

There's also a way to remove the stock from a Thompson, do some fairly serious modifications, and hide it in a toolbox so the average police officer will never realize what he's looking at. But I'm not going into that here. Ammunition and scope can be harder to conceal than the handgun itself, though there are tricks for this, as well.

I saw such a setup once upon a time, and it was truly impressive. (And, well, it's also possible to obtain actual silencers that look just like lawnmower mufflers, right down to the box they're stored in.)

The Thompson single shot can be a fearsome weapon, and the perfect weapon for a situation where you need much more range than an ordinnary handgun, and more concealability than any rifle can give you.
 

Glen T. Brock

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Guns

Hello folks,

A .32 is a woman's purse gun. For that matter the .38 was too until it became the standard issue for police side arms. At the turn of the 20th century the .44 revolver was the bad boy on the block. During the Spanish-American War in 1898 the .45 automatic was introduced for the army. It was designed to have a quarter ounce bullet travel at a relatively low speed (about 600 ft. per second), giving the bullet the foot pounds of energy to not only cause hydrostatic shock on impact but to knock the target down as well. This was important, considering the Army was fighting Moros in the Phillipines, who would habitually dope themselves up into suicide charges with machetes.

The best homemade silencer I've ever heard of is the good old propholactic (non lubricated rubber) tied over the end of the barrell. It's only good for one shot but that's all it was designed for. A suppressor works by dissapating the gasses coming out of the barrell when the pistol is fired, thus reducing the shock wave. The trick is to suppress the gas just enough to keep the barrell from bursting. If the gun is silenced too well it will backfire. Not good. The Heckler & Koch 9mm. is a favorite weapon for silencing because it has a portruding barrell that may be threaded for easy installation of a muffler.

Best wishes,

Glen T. Brock
 

Liam Jackson

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http://www.americanhandgunner.com/ American Handgunner- devoted to all well, the handgun. Nice information on handgunning including laws, equipment and heavy doses of political posturing. Obviosuly, just my opinion), and a bit one dimensional. 3 1/2 stars out of 5

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/
Guns and Ammo Magazine- One of the premiere publications for recreational shooters. Reveiws guns and related equipment, provides periodic ballistics and comparison tests. Covers long guns as well as handguns. Four Stars


Other issues mentioned above.
Reference the prophylactic silencer-
The best non-commercial silencer I've ever tested was a patch of bicycle inner-tube. It screwed with the cycling of the next round, but served the purpose in close quaters. Personally, I would avoid a silencer on nearly any wheel gun. The blowback through the cylinders just gives off too much noise and flash.

Regarding the 44. mag, it's only been around for about 50 years and has some serious drawbacks as a combat weapon. In many field situations, it's inferior to the 41. mag. (Recoil and nightblindness from excessive muzzle flash contributed to the Boder Patrol's decision to adopt the .41 years ago. (Which is quite ironic since you can charbroil sirloin with the muzzle falsh from a .41.)

The 44-40 Russian and .44 Colt were extremely popular at the turn of the century, but so many calibers were coming out, cartridge loyalty seemed well distributed. Even the anemic .36 cal had strong supporters among various pre-1911 military units. The, along came the formidable .45 auto. Few cartridges of that period (1880-1915) carried the foot-pounds of energy released by the .45 auto. Later, some folks developed a liking for the snubby .44 Special due to low muzzle flash, reduced recoil and a solid kinetic energy release at short distances. Most all it was cheap.

GAforgotten_44s225E.jpg

Some of the forgotten .44s (and a couple of resurrected ones) include: (from left to right) .44-40, .44 Remington, .44 Colt, .44 Merwin & Hulbert, .44 Russian, .44 American, .44 Webley and .44 Bull Dog

Finally, as James R. mentioned, the Thompson Contender can be chambered in a hellaciously wide range of calibers (75 to date) from small varmit rounds to the nasty 45-70 Goverment. Adjustable front and rear sights on most models (meprolight is available for less than $100.00, and and I recommend meprolight sights on any handgun) The breech locking mechanism prevents nearly all rear-escaping gas, making this a potent and accurate weapon. Add a 16-21" barrel and you have an extremely efficient tool.
contender.jpg

I understand Thompson is considering production of a .50 caliber Action Express barrel. This is an extraordinary event as this is an incrediblt powerful round.
 
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Jamesaritchie

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Silencer

Glen T. Brock said:
Hello folks,

A .32 is a woman's purse gun. For that matter the .38 was too until it became the standard issue for police side arms. At the turn of the 20th century the .44 revolver was the bad boy on the block. During the Spanish-American War in 1898 the .45 automatic was introduced for the army. It was designed to have a quarter ounce bullet travel at a relatively low speed (about 600 ft. per second), giving the bullet the foot pounds of energy to not only cause hydrostatic shock on impact but to knock the target down as well. This was important, considering the Army was fighting Moros in the Phillipines, who would habitually dope themselves up into suicide charges with machetes.

The best homemade silencer I've ever heard of is the good old propholactic (non lubricated rubber) tied over the end of the barrell. It's only good for one shot but that's all it was designed for. A suppressor works by dissapating the gasses coming out of the barrell when the pistol is fired, thus reducing the shock wave. The trick is to suppress the gas just enough to keep the barrell from bursting. If the gun is silenced too well it will backfire. Not good. The Heckler & Koch 9mm. is a favorite weapon for silencing because it has a portruding barrell that may be threaded for easy installation of a muffler.

Best wishes,

Glen T. Brock

I'm not sure I'd use "dissipation" to describe how a silencer works, though I suppose you could say that. What you're really doing is goiving the sound more wave more room to be absorbed.

A quality weapon won't backfire, no matter how well it's silenced, and high quality commercial silencers do a really impressive job at quieting things down.

The trouble with silencers such as a prophylactic, or a potato, or most other home remedies, is that they don't work very well, especially with large caliber rounds, most will interfere with aiming, and they can only be used once. In real life, one shot seldom does the trick. I saw a man shot six tijmes with a .357 Mag who lived, and another who was shot five times with a .45 Colt ACP who lived.

The only absolutely certain one shot quick kill is right where the spine and brain join. Some will die almost immediately with one shot anywhere near the heart, but other men take a lot of killing. You have to shoot them six times, then beat them with a club, then hang whatever's left. And they'll still spend half an hour trying to untie the noose to get at you.

When you pull the trigger on someone, you have to be able to keep pulling the trigger until he's dead, or he might live long enough to kill you. If the person is armed, even with a knife, or with a handy nearby hard object, you do not want to be close enough to him for a spur of the moment silencer to do it's job. It takes less than one second for a good man to cover ten feet and kill you with almost anything he has at hand, and he can do this with a bullet, or five bullets, already in him.

In the movies, the script is usually written so the first well placed shot drops the person in his tracks, and the murderer calmly walks away. In real life, the first shot, or the first two or three shots, even well-placed, may just make the person mad.

If you're really up close and personal, the best silencer is the person's body. Jam the muzzle of the weapon hard into his abdomen right under the ribs and pull the trigger. There's very little sound at all except a big whump as the gases expand inside him.

Of course, as they say, if you REALLY want to kill someone, forget the noise. Get a shotgun, get close, and get messy.
 

Liam Jackson

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When you pull the trigger on someone, you have to be able to keep pulling the trigger until he's dead, or he might live long enough to kill you. If the person is armed, even with a knife, or with a handy nearby hard object, you do not want to be close enough to him for a spur of the moment silencer to do it's job. It takes less than one second for a good man to cover ten feet and kill you with almost anything he has at hand, and he can do this with a bullet, or five bullets, already in him.

More than one cop is dead because he/she fell back on double-tap range training when dealing with a whacked-out actor. Shotguns are indeed the man-killer of choice when the **** hits the fan.

Regarding the one-shot/one kill, most snipers are taught that a hydroshok or core-lokt pass-thru of the medulla oblongata is generally the preferred sniper shot, with a 1" kill zone surrounding the second cervical vertebrae a close second. Of course, as with every other subject under the sun, there are differing schools of thought.

(Silencers are best used (if at all) inside point-blank, or 12 feet. Just a rule of thumb from old shooters far wiser than me.)